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At the same time, painting Magneto, someone for whom the actual Holocaust is a key part of his origin, as a genocidal maniac seems shortsighted as well. He's always struck me as someone for whom humanity always came second but he didn't want them extinguished off the face of the earth. House of M, one Bendis' better events, demonstrates that as well.
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Apr 13, 2014 16:25
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The thing with real life metaphors for the X-Men and a character like Magneto is they are both things that can be done but just take that extra bit of effort to do well. There's contradictions in how they work but with the effort you can do a lot of fun things with them, even have something worthwhile to say with them. It's actually kind of frustrating that Marvel have moved away from attempting to push the X-Men in an interesting direction the last few years (with say the exception of Legacy) in favor of "they are just superheroes so deal with it". Waterhaul fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Apr 13, 2014 |
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Apr 13, 2014 17:09
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Waterhaul posted:...in favor of "they are just superheroes so deal with it". I really liked this part of the Utopia arc. Cyclops basically telling the Mayor of SF that she had her own giant superhero team whether she liked it or not seemed like it was finally going to move the X-Men into being a giant player that the world knew about, now we're back to the mansion and "silently saving the world" type stuff. Such a set back in my mind, they really could have created a long term status quo, instead we're back to the same old with a new paint job.
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Apr 13, 2014 18:53
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Waterhaul posted:Reading both this run and Disassembled so close together you get to fully experience the terriblness of just how Marvel didn't know how to handle Magneto for years. Is there truth to the story of Quesada cornering Morrison at SDCC in '04 and screaming at him for being ungrateful after Morrison announced his DC exclusivity? It's always made me half-wonder if the immediate dismantling of Morrison's stuff (the reversal started immediately and his status quo was destroyed within a year) wasn't at least partially fueled by petty revenge (in concert with Quesada's already kinda childish/dumb Three Genies). Rick posted:It's not that I don't like Magneto as a villain, it's that I think his story arc as a villain ran its natural course (other than if he was permanently killed, the only thing that could happen was he was redeemed) and my problem is when lesser writers decide to have him twirl a mustache because they can't think of anything else to do. That isn't to say there still aren't some really good stories out there that could be told with Magneto as a villain, but it's going to have to be built to and we're far away at the moment. Really I think it's that nobody is ever going to buy Magneto as a pure villain again. The image of him being a man constantly walking the thin line between hero and villain, ultimately noble and respected but whose emotions and fiery nature get the better of him, is just way too entrenched for people to accept anything else. Waterhaul posted:The thing with real life metaphors for the X-Men and a character like Magneto is they are both things that can be done but just take that extra bit of effort to do well. There's contradictions in how they work but with the effort you can do a lot of fun things with them, even have something worthwhile to say with them. I think the superhero direction would be fine if we were still under the Morrison-era status quo. The metaphor is always going to be fairly loose (due to existing in a superhero universe and all) and not exact but "mutants are people as much as anybody else; learn to accept that they're here to stay or get left in the dust and viewed as a dinosaur" works fine with the evolution of views regarding race, sexuality, etc. Younger generations will probably be more alright with it growing up in a more integrated world, there will be people who will be uncomfortable, and there will be the batshit bigots who become more and more ostracized. I'd be fine with the X-Men being slowly accepted as heroes in their own right as just part of a gradual shift. But, well, that's been gone for close to ten years at this point.
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Apr 13, 2014 22:50
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I would think the retcons against Morrison would be less Quesada having a fit and more Claremont having a rage fit, especially since Excalibur is just one long whine about Eve of Destruction and New X-Men.
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Apr 13, 2014 22:57
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Claremont did not have that kind of influence at that point. Outside of books he was writing of course. Hell I don't think he ever has had that kind of influence.
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Apr 13, 2014 23:47
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He'd have to have gotten that Excalibur gig somehow. And it's probably more, "Uh, we have to be able to use this character again somehow, and preferably not as a huuuuge mass murderer," than anything personal.
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Apr 14, 2014 00:12
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Probably Magic posted:I would think the retcons against Morrison would be less Quesada having a fit and more Claremont having a rage fit, especially since Excalibur is just one long whine about Eve of Destruction and New X-Men.
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Apr 14, 2014 00:15
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Spiderdrake posted:I've never read that Excalibur run since I have a crippling allergy to later day Claremont. What happened in Excalibur exactly? Magneto bonding with Xavier over the actions of fake Magneto, basically reinforcing that no he is not a genocidal maniac. Also it took place in decimated Genosha and had sexy tentacle armed Callisto.
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Apr 14, 2014 00:18
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hope and vaseline posted:Magneto bonding with Xavier over the actions of fake Magneto, basically reinforcing that no he is not a genocidal maniac. Also it took place in decimated Genosha and had sexy tentacle armed Callisto. Every time I see posts about the run I've just finished I learn new stuff that are confusing and explaining at then same time. Fake Xorn was Magento but not really Magneto a fake Magneto that was being controlled by Sumblime, but there was a Xorn at some point that had a Brother that was the Xorn Fake Magneto was pretending to be, but Sublime was actually Kick. I wish they did more X-23 stuff in the next run, because seeing her try to be normal is pretty nice. I like seeing her interact with Kitty and Rachael. She's one of those characters like Squirrel Girl i'm more familiar with in Games than in the comics.
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Apr 14, 2014 02:34
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I like to tell my non-comic book friends about dumb stuff in comics a lot, but I almost feel ashamed at the entire Xorn thing. It's just too dumb and ridiculous and contrived to even think about.
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Apr 14, 2014 04:12
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Spiderdrake posted:I've never read that Excalibur run since I have a crippling allergy to later day Claremont. What happened in Excalibur exactly? Claremont created the hippest character ever: a rebellious goth girl who controls ghosts named Wicked.
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Apr 14, 2014 04:16
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Someone should totally do a write up of that Excaliber run for the Worst runs thread. I mean it may not be the worst, but it sounds pretty bad.Chinaman7000 posted:I like to tell my non-comic book friends about dumb stuff in comics a lot, but I almost feel ashamed at the entire Xorn thing. It's just too dumb and ridiculous and contrived to even think about. "So Xorn's big reveal is he's Magneto! But that wasn't good enough for some people! So instead, he is the twin brother to another Xorn, also Xorn, and he was Xorn pretending to be Magneto pretending to be Xorn all along! And then one of the Xorns sucked Exodus into his head, or something? I dunno, Chuck Austen, whatever."
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Apr 14, 2014 04:33
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Polaris's outfit at this point is really weird, its like a girl decided to cosplay as the Joker, but a female joker that is also a fetish superhero. Also sucked the Juggernaut into his head. BTW, that was really brutal, Cain was actually a good guy, and that poor fish kid ruined it and got himself killed, sending Cain into a massive guilt spiral where he sacrificed himself.
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Apr 14, 2014 04:40
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Waterhaul posted:The thing with real life metaphors for the X-Men and a character like Magneto is they are both things that can be done but just take that extra bit of effort to do well. There's contradictions in how they work but with the effort you can do a lot of fun things with them, even have something worthwhile to say with them. It's really sad when Archie is more daring and envelope pushing than the X-Men, but here we are. I think comics are a nice medium to examine or challenge social conventions, because in general the consequences can always be reversed or undone, but Marvel backed far away from that years ago, which is sad because I think the 70s, 80s, and sometimes even the 90s comics did a lot of interesting things and were legit literature.
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Apr 14, 2014 04:58
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Rick posted:It's really sad when Archie is more daring and envelope pushing than the X-Men, but here we are. The early 00s had some very different stuff from Marvel. Some worked (Bendis on Daredevil, the early Ultimate universe, Jones on Hulk, X-Statix, David on Madrox/X-Factor, Morrison on New X-Men) and some didn't (Marville, Fightbolts) but there was no doubt that they were willing to throw paint at the wall back then.
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Apr 14, 2014 12:21
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twistedmentat posted:Polaris's outfit at this point is really weird, its like a girl decided to cosplay as the Joker, but a female joker that is also a fetish superhero. And then Frank Tieri decided that he hated "Huggernaut" and tried to make him a villain again.
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Apr 14, 2014 18:18
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if anything the X-Men mythos is a reminder of how hosed up things get when you're engaged in an intractable conflict between societies.
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Apr 14, 2014 19:53
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Spiderdrake posted:"So Xorn's big reveal is he's Magneto! But that wasn't good enough for some people! So instead, he is the twin brother to another Xorn, also Xorn, and he was Xorn pretending to be Magneto pretending to be Xorn all along! And then one of the Xorns sucked Exodus into his head, or something? I dunno, Chuck Austen, whatever." Xorn was Magneto controlled by Sublime. Then the Scarlet Witch, losing her grip on reality in the buildup to Disassembled, attempted to exonerate her father by creating surrogate Xorns and plugging them into continuity in his place. That's my explanation, it leaves Morrison's story and themes intact, and nothing Marvel says can convince me it happened any other way. 
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Apr 14, 2014 19:59
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hope and vaseline posted:sexy tentacle armed Callisto. Suben posted:Claremont created the hippest character ever: a rebellious goth girl who controls ghosts named Wicked. Spiderdrake posted:And then one of the Xorns sucked Exodus into his head, or something? I dunno, Chuck Austen, whatever.  Any excuse to post this gif is a good excuse. I think most people would agree Marvel went down the shitter when Disney bought them. Everything turned into a platform to launch movies instead of letting the movies happen naturally. There's no room for new risky things, because everything needs to be safe with some way of turning it into yet another profitable PC movie. Regarding Magneto, I don't think he's been a golden age villain in a million years. Even Scott Lobdell tried to write him as a conflicted character, though the result was not entirely a success (most would say "far from it"). Grant Morrison showed him as a Genoshan leader living in peace until the genocide of his nation. It's implied the mental trauma led him into the drug Kick (Sublime) and thus to blaming the X-Men for everything, which in true Morrison fashion turned out into an incredibly convulted plot device, but one which most people including me liked. When you see him destroying New York he is completely gone, choke-full of drugs, having monologues with his Xorn persona, and is only stopped when Wolverine finally puts him out of his misery. He's not a 60's villain, but a deeply disturbed old man. When he comes back -- because god knows this is comics -- he's a benevolent leader in House of M, saves Xavier in Legacy, and later rejoins the X-Men. Even on his new solo series he's trying to do what he believes to be the "right thing". He isn't an anti-hero and neither is he a cackling maniac. He's Magneto and during most of his history he's been written this way.
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Apr 14, 2014 20:21
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Saoshyant posted:I think most people would agree Marvel went down the shitter when Disney bought them. Everything turned into a platform to launch movies instead of letting the movies happen naturally. There's no room for new risky things, because everything needs to be safe with some way of turning it into yet another profitable PC movie. That's some revisionist loving history, dude.
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Apr 14, 2014 20:24
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Saoshyant posted:
Morrison showed him once and it was right before he died, and it showed him wounded after trying to kill everyone. Also Marvel has been taking a lot of chances in the last couple of years, and doing much better than DC.
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Apr 14, 2014 20:25
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Hakkesshu posted:That's some revisionist loving history, dude. How come?
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Apr 14, 2014 20:27
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Saoshyant posted:
And no, I don't think most people think that at all given that Marvel's been putting out a lot of great stuff since 2009. The Avengers franchise doesn't even remotely resemble what is being shown on-screen other than some character.
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Apr 14, 2014 20:33
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Saoshyant posted:How come? Because it operates under the presumption that it wasn't like that before.
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Apr 14, 2014 20:37
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Saoshyant posted:I think most people would agree Marvel went down the shitter when Disney bought them. Fuckin CORPORATIONS, man 
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Apr 14, 2014 20:41
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Endless Mike posted:I don't think Disney buying Marvel in 2009 had much of an affect on comics written half a decade prior. Oh, I meant it as a recent development. In the last decade you had things like X-Statix, Incredible Herc, Cable & Deadpool... things that wouldn't sell movies, but were fun comics. That became less and less prevalent with time. Probably even before Disney bought them, sure, but when Abnett & Lanning wrote Guardians of the Galaxy, it wasn't intended as an attempt at a franchise movie. One can't say the same thing about its newest iteration or this misguided attempt of Marvel forcing the Inhumans down everyone's throats.
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Apr 14, 2014 20:44
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The problems with the X-men are, with some exceptional bright spots, more than a decade old.
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Apr 14, 2014 20:44
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Saoshyant posted:Oh, I meant it as a recent development. In the last decade you had things like X-Statix, Incredible Herc, Cable & Deadpool... things that wouldn't sell movies, but were fun comics. That became less and less prevalent with time. Probably even before Disney bought them, sure, but when Abnett & Lanning wrote Guardians of the Galaxy, it wasn't intended as an attempt at a franchise movie. One can't say the same thing about its newest iteration or this misguided attempt of Marvel forcing the Inhumans down everyone's throats. You really can not say that. I mean when Guardians came out it was the same year that Iron Man came out. When ever they had a movie they had tie ins no matter what.
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Apr 14, 2014 20:47
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CapnAndy posted:I would do my level best to laugh anyone claiming that out of the room. Yeah but that is still true. I mean Marvel is a corporation, or was at least.
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Apr 14, 2014 21:24
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I feel like I missed an issue, but its a trade so that's impossible, but everyone seems to take M Day in Xmen really well. Oh yea there's only about 200 mutants left in the school, and Polaris has lost her powers, but everyone else seems kinda okay with it. Or did they deal with the M day stuff in another book and Xmen at this time takes place after everyones kind of gotten to the acceptance level of grief. And Rhodey was literally piloting an Evangelion unit against Apocalypse.
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Apr 14, 2014 22:11
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Check out the stuff that's titled Decimation for consequences type stuff. Though the only memorable stuff I remember out of that was the Quicksilver fallout in Son of M (And the excellent follow-up, Silent War). (I guess Deadly Genesis was pretty important in setting off the Professor X is an rear end in a top hat trend that dominated the X titles for quite a while)
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Apr 14, 2014 22:16
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Perhaps there are attempts to make Marvel books more palatable for movies, but they are still writing a bunch of really good books so who cares?
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Apr 14, 2014 22:29
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Marvel's in a really weird state right now. On the one hand you have some really good, really imaginative comics like Hawkeye, Ms Marvel, and Moon Knight. They're things where the creators get to take classic characters and have almost free reign. It's almost like work for hire characters in a creator owned world. But on the other hand, you have some seriously heavy handed editorial mandates. Fear Itself, a crossover dragged out into event because of synergy! Inhumans being forced down our throats to try and because Disney can't do an X-men movie. Nick Fury's utterly disastrous transition to Nick Fury Jr because white Nick Fury could confuse people who've only watched the movies I guess. Their middle ground right now almost doesn't exist. I honestly believe the x-books have ebbed and flowed in quality recently because Disney doesn't own the rights to the movies and their caring level is very low.
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Apr 14, 2014 22:50
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If anything, they lurch between events like a drunken sailor and so you end up with the in between books radically varying in quality.
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Apr 14, 2014 23:26
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The thing that's really irritating me with Marvel right now is the "television seasons" mindset they're taking. Books get a year, year and a half and then they're relaunched. New creative team? Relaunch. New direction? Relaunch. I'm sick to loving death of constant relaunches and if the sales of the Marvel Now! 2 stuff (at least the Diamond numbers from Comichron) are anything to go by it looks like they've started completely killing the New #1 gimmick with that poo poo too. Avengers World is, so far, the best of the new number 1's with 86k. Everything else seems to fall around the 40k-50k range give or take. Avengers Undercover and Iron Patriot are the lowest of any Now book (first or second wave) so far debuting at 31k and when you're doing like 10k+ worse than loving Morbius' debut you're DOA. Of course some of those books like Ms. Marvel and ANGR might be doing just as good if not better in digital but digital sales numbers aren't released so if Marvel says they're doing well digitally you just have to take their word for it. Suben fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Apr 14, 2014 |
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Apr 14, 2014 23:40
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Saoshyant posted:I think most people would agree Marvel went down the shitter when Disney bought them. Everything turned into a platform to launch movies instead of letting the movies happen naturally. There's no room for new risky things, because everything needs to be safe with some way of turning it into yet another profitable PC movie. I agree that Marvel isn't as balls out risky as they were in the early 00s, but I'm not about to blame Disney or movies for it. Honestly, the only reason Marvel tried all that stuff is that they were nearly out of business, so they might as well go down with a fight. And while the good stuff was remembered well, there was also a lot of crap coming out-- I'm probably the only guy here who like the Bruce Jones Hulk run. Also, I'm not sure the next generation of great writers is in the position to do everything yet, and a lot of Marvel's current top end writers are writing traditional cape comics. This isn't a knock, but it does tend to not give these guys the attention of previous writers who were going into 100% new territory. Personally, Marvel might not have the insanely good books that they did in the early 00s, the average quality is much better. I'll take that right now, especially if it means we get tightly written traditional cape books like Ultimate Spider-man and Avengers/New Avengers.
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Apr 14, 2014 23:45
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Indie Rocktopus posted:Xorn was Magneto controlled by Sublime. Then the Scarlet Witch, losing her grip on reality in the buildup to Disassembled, attempted to exonerate her father by creating surrogate Xorns and plugging them into continuity in his place. Current Magneto is just wish fulfillment from Scarlet Witch which is why his powers are going wonky despite not being involved with the Phoenix.
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Apr 15, 2014 00:06
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So I guess I just stopped giving a gently caress about ANX but did Bendis actually explain how Corsair came back to life or is that yet another thing he just chucked out the window?
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Apr 15, 2014 01:48
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Rhyno posted:Bendis actually explain
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Apr 15, 2014 02:29
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