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I'm gonna assume they're not actually doing No Phone style Flaws, since Holden saying they "finally" figured out how to do Flaws means they spent some design time on it, and you don't come up with oWOD style flaws if you spend any amount of time on the system.Old Kentucky Shark posted:Because I kind of assumed that the charm still fundamentally works like it used to after seeing the familiar's version in Inflationary Corgi Methodology, and even if having extra hit points confers an excellent mechanical advantage under the new system, it's still strikes me as being the most boring thing I could possibly spend XP on. Seems kinda unlikely? People are saying that it's useful to buy, and if the momentum thing is as big a part of the combat system as they say, then just having more HP might not actually be all that good.
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Apr 15, 2014 10:22
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Ferrinus posted:We already knew. "We'll make sure Ox-Body does something" was practically part of the opening pitch. I don't see where Stephenls gets off scolding you about saying so, he's not even your real dad! I assumed he was talking to the other guys, I was only talking about already public knowledge, which the NDA allows... quote:Something we didn't know for certain was that you could still buy Ox-Body five separate times, Ah crap. I appreciate it's annoying as hell for you guys to not actually have anything substantial to discuss now or for the foreseeable future. It's killing me I can't have a decent discussion of Exalted online anywhere (Lunar and Infernal threads from hell to breakfast, drat). But I meant what I said about not being able to discuss it without being misleading, that's why I posted in the first place. You will not get me to shut up once we get the word, but until then I wouldn't want to say anything without being able to correct misconceptions of its implications, and I REALLY wouldn't want to say anything without being able to be corrected by the other people under NDAs when I'm not 100% sure I (or they) have grokked it. So for now the only takeaway is that my Dawn is ridiculously awesome, sorry! (@Kai - I take your general point, but come on, Ox Body. Ox Body! I don't really expect people to be excited about it, but it's worth a Keanu image macro or five. Maybe I'm unique in how big a deal I think its badness in previous editions was)
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Apr 15, 2014 12:39
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Bedlamdan posted:They're not having flaws give out bp/experience points, it looks like. nWoD solved this problem like fifteen years ago. Your Flaws give you an xp when they come up in a way that significantly hinders you. Bam. Done.
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Apr 15, 2014 13:02
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In general there are no useless charms (so far). That's not to say every charm is one-true-path must have, but nothing like some of the charms in previous editions that just literally were worthless. That being said, there may be more optimal charms than others. I don't really have the chops to break things down that much though, so I couldn't tell you one way or the other. However, I feel like even the most optimal charms are spread out across different branches, so there isn't any simple straight shot to combat dominance.
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Apr 15, 2014 13:27
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Doodmons posted:nWoD solved this problem like fifteen years ago. Your Flaws give you an xp when they come up in a way that significantly hinders you. Bam. Done. Yeah that really the perfect way of doing it beyond going full FATE on us. Wasn't much XP but made them meaningful and something people wanted to play instead of something to take for a bit more xp and then never mention again.
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Apr 15, 2014 13:39
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Given that they're on record as not thinking 'get a benny when the flaw hits' mechanisms are appropriate for Exalted due to it pulling you out of the character or somesuch, but also don't want the 'gives you points to spend on positive quirks' style, I wonder what kind of flaws they've ended up on. Off the top of my head I guess you could have a system where everyone has to take a flaw, a system where each flaw comes with a benefit, and a system where flaws are purely flavour, but none of those seem to be appropriate for Exalted.
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Apr 15, 2014 16:04
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Doodmons posted:nWoD solved this problem like fifteen years ago. Your Flaws give you an xp when they come up in a way that significantly hinders you. Bam. Done. I despise Non-even xp totals among party members. I would hate for that idea to be in 3E.
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Apr 15, 2014 18:23
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Stallion Cabana posted:I despise Non-even xp totals among party members. I would hate for that idea to be in 3E. Yeah, we have enough trouble already with people sitting around looking salty after the ST didn't remember to say "two die stunt" after their 10 minute short story about swinging a sword at an extra, we certainly don't need that "3 XP for good roleplaying, 1 xp for limit breaks, -3 XP for touching the ST's pizza" stuff that shits up books from the 80s and 90s.
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Apr 15, 2014 18:39
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In theory I think it was what you were suppoused to do in both 1E and 2E, and hell even Blood and Smoke, which is the most recent WoD book I know of, have that way of advancement but I never got why it was popular at all. It never made sense. It's like if your character dies you have to make a new one and don't get any XP or get a fraction of it that was pushed in 2E, you already lost a character you had hopefully put a lot of attention and care into, then lost, so now you have to be...what? Punished? for not being completely careful all the time.
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Apr 15, 2014 18:48
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Stallion Cabana posted:I despise Non-even xp totals among party members. I would hate for that idea to be in 3E. We just pool the beats in our game anyway. Even beats generated by flaws. They could do the same thing in Exalted.
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Apr 15, 2014 18:49
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I seem to recall one of the Kickstarter previews stating that Stunts can no longer refund Willpower, but that it'll be possible to go over your actual 'Hard' WP up to 10 through some means - maybe that's what Flaws are for? Like Compels on Aspects in FATE, with Will instead of Fate Points? I could get behind that - hell, that's the sort of implementation that wouldn't make the Great Curse feel like an egg timer inexorably ticking towards a psychotic episode instead of greatness and madness being two sides of the same coin.
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Apr 15, 2014 18:53
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You could actually go over your willpower cap (yes, even past 10) with the Great Curse in 2nd edition so that's not actually a new thing.
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Apr 15, 2014 19:46
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Doodmons posted:nWoD solved this problem like fifteen years ago. Your Flaws give you an xp when they come up in a way that significantly hinders you. Bam. Done. Flaws should give you some kind of expendable liquid resource when they tick, not XP. Ideally, they wouldn't even give you something so valuable as willpower points or motes, or at least they'd give it to you in a limited way contingent on the flaw. Like if you're blind you get a refund when spending willpower on Awareness rolls to hear stuff, if you've only got one arm you can fight in so defensive a way that it's almost as though you've got the Shield tag.
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Apr 15, 2014 20:50
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Ferrinus posted:expendable liquid resource Oh that reminds me. Are the heroin piss dinosaurs returning on 3E?
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Apr 15, 2014 21:17
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Ferrinus posted:Flaws should give you some kind of expendable liquid resource when they tick, not XP. Or go simpler and have the Flaw give you a temporary willpower point that is lost at the end of the scene where your flaw hindered you.
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Apr 15, 2014 21:28
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Really, that depends on how WP is implemented in 3E, and especially on what sort of constraints it's supposed to impose. 2E and 2.5E made it pull triple-duty as a fluid resource for using stronger effects, your lifebar against social/mental attacks, and a rigid stat that hooked into way too many other things. The emergent result was Chungian Social Combat, whereby the objectively-correct response to anyone so much as wishing you a good morning was to immediately roll initiative and punch them in the face, lest they secretly be enemies who might change topics without warning and shout "KILL YOURSELF!!!" twice in succession, thereby depleting your entire WP reserve and forcing you to accede to any subsequent demands. I have high hopes that 3E won't have anything NEARLY that stupid, and also that Willpower points won't just be another take on D&D spell slots/Dailies that cap your Adventures Per Day, such that combat-speed recovery won't irrevocably gently caress game balance nor slow play to a crawl like Stunt Or Die could end up doing.
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Apr 15, 2014 22:06
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Ferrinus posted:Flaws should give you some kind of expendable liquid resource when they tick, not XP. I'd be wary of trying to build flaws that way, though. Seems like it'd be distressingly easy to fall into the trap where not only is it always better to have a flaw, it's always better to have a *specific* flaw for a specific build, so you get an endless stream of one-armed Dawns, insomniac Nights,
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Apr 15, 2014 22:09
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Thesaurasaurus posted:Really, that depends on how WP is implemented in 3E, and especially on what sort of constraints it's supposed to impose. 2E and 2.5E made it pull triple-duty as a fluid resource for using stronger effects, your lifebar against social/mental attacks, and a rigid stat that hooked into way too many other things. The emergent result was Chungian Social Combat, whereby the objectively-correct response to anyone so much as wishing you a good morning was to immediately roll initiative and punch them in the face, lest they secretly be enemies who might change topics without warning and shout "KILL YOURSELF!!!" twice in succession, thereby depleting your entire WP reserve and forcing you to accede to any subsequent demands. One weakness that White Wolf games tend to have in general is, there's no mental health bar. Psychic attacks tend to decrement your Willpower, but since Willpower is simultaneously your "actually do things" resource it ends up really punishing and discouraging to face up to any kind of mental or social trauma because it interferes with your ability to play. Fortunately, Exalted has a Limit track. I'd expect that frustration or telepathic attack "wound" your Limit, not your Willpower, so that you can always spend points to enhance rolls and activate powers unless you're dealing with magic that specifically saps your ability to try hard at stuff. Dammit Who? posted:I'd be wary of trying to build flaws that way, though. Seems like it'd be distressingly easy to fall into the trap where not only is it always better to have a flaw, it's always better to have a *specific* flaw for a specific build, so you get an endless stream of one-armed Dawns, insomniac Nights, Yeah, that could easily be the outcome of flaws that give you specific perks in exchange. "Take a temporary WP" is probably cleaner. Even cleaner, of course, would be no flaws at all-
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Apr 15, 2014 22:15
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Ferrinus posted:Fortunately, Exalted has a Limit track. I'd expect that frustration or telepathic attack "wound" your Limit, not your Willpower, so that you can always spend points to enhance rolls and activate powers unless you're dealing with magic that specifically saps your ability to try hard at stuff. Wait, would this even work? Like if the goal of mental damage was to limit-break exalts you'd still never win an argument, you'd just get insane limit activations. It'd be like arguing someone so hard their pants fell down, since they don't concede, they just have their pants down. Except in this case it'd be that you argued so hard that they went super-saiyan and killed everyone in the room. Were you suggesting that Limit be used as a measuring stick for a separate psychic damage track that doesn't necessarily cause you to break if you get depleted?
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Apr 15, 2014 22:34
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theironjef posted:Wait, would this even work? Like if the goal of mental damage was to limit-break exalts you'd still never win an argument, you'd just get insane limit activations. It'd be like arguing someone so hard their pants fell down, since they don't concede, they just have their pants down. Except in this case it'd be that you argued so hard that they went super-saiyan and killed everyone in the room. Basically, yeah. It could measure, generally, your ability to put up with this poo poo, and be the price/exhaust valve for ignoring mental or social influence that would otherwise require you do things you don't want to do. A mortal who runs out of Limit is just completely frazzled or exhausted, an Exalt who runs out of limit is likely to flip out. You might want an actual Solar Limit Break to trigger if something particular happens to you while you're at full Limit rather than just happening when you reach full Limit, of course. Either way, these specifics I'm here are being invented off the cuff; I just generally want somewhere for a psychic attack to hit my character that isn't my character's Willpower gauge.
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Apr 15, 2014 22:48
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I would actually want to have Flaw rewards go into a collective pool. If a group of PCs is collaborating on a task and the fact that you're always drunk or can't control your temper or need Fantasy Insulin every 12 hours gets in the way, it doesn't just get in your way, it gets in everyone's way. The key is that the flaw disadvantages the entire group, not just you, so therefore the reward needs to go to the group. You get enough of an individual reward by having it create more spotlight time for your character, so the rest should be a collective benefit. I'm actually curious now if Exalted 3e is going to make use of collective merits. Maybe allow the Circle to buy Fame or Cult or Resources together with the caveat that the effective level is one lower, or something.
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Apr 15, 2014 23:14
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Flaws are super weird because they're supposed to help the GM by giving him plot hooks, but it necessarily leads to munchkin-ized PCs that are very difficult to challenge. To resolve that double-edged sword, you're encouraged to be punitive with those flaws, which does awful things to the game's social contract. Even Fate compels run into this problem, at least for me. I can't imagine a flaw system that actually works as intended, but Holden said it would be obvious to me once I've seen it, so I guess I'm the dumb one!theironjef posted:Yeah, we have enough trouble already with people sitting around looking salty after the ST didn't remember to say "two die stunt" after their 10 minute short story about swinging a sword at an extra, we certainly don't need that "3 XP for good roleplaying, 1 xp for limit breaks, -3 XP for touching the ST's pizza" stuff that shits up books from the 80s and 90s. The only good XP penalty there's ever been is in Feng Shui, where you get a penalty for not giving your cyborg gorilla a monkey pun name. theironjef posted:Wait, would this even work? Like if the goal of mental damage was to limit-break exalts you'd still never win an argument, you'd just get insane limit activations. It'd be like arguing someone so hard their pants fell down, since they don't concede, they just have their pants down. Except in this case it'd be that you argued so hard that they went super-saiyan and killed everyone in the room. That creates a pretty interesting situation, though, where everyone's afraid to poke at the Solar, because if he gets fed up with you you'll probably die. At that point, the ST would only want to set up really powerful antagonists to challenge Solars socially, because only then will whatever penalties a Solar Limit Break inflicts actually matter. Of course, this makes things really tricky for non-Solar PCs trying to argue with a Solar NPCs. Then the ST can just or is forced to go "Alright, you can't talk anymore, time to fight!" which will not make your talky Sidereal (or whatever) happy. Also, in that case, the Solar Limit Break has to be actually effective on a mechanical, rather than narrative, level. I like the idea on a narrative level, but on a practical level it'd be hard to work with. Although, if you could argue a Solar into the 2e limit breaks, like the one where he fucks off to the woods to live as a hermit or the one where he bursts into tears and cries for a month, that would be hilarious.
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Apr 16, 2014 00:32
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FATE is most definitely not a game where you can punish players by compelling them, unless you start being an rear end in a top hat and saying things like 'So your character is a Ladies' Man, huh? Well, you see this cute girl at the bar and she distracts you, roping you into a romantic evening with her. Sit the session out and take a Fate Point'. It's hard to punish players by...making them the scene's protagonists, particularly when it can involve such terrible flaws of character as 'is too self-sacrificial', or 'his balls of steel blind him to subtle approaches'. If Flaws worked like compels that'd solve a bunch of issues and have the side effect of making the Great Curse finally make sense in-character instead of being Primordial Mood Magic.
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Apr 16, 2014 01:41
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pospysyl posted:That creates a pretty interesting situation, though, where everyone's afraid to poke at the Solar, because if he gets fed up with you you'll probably die. At that point, the ST would only want to set up really powerful antagonists to challenge Solars socially, because only then will whatever penalties a Solar Limit Break inflicts actually matter. It creates a situation where anti-solar tech is earplugs and a megaphone. Just shout arguments at him from really far away til he wigs out and slays his own army.
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Apr 16, 2014 03:58
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Social actions aren't really powerful unless you've got an intimacy backing them up, we know that much. If your Solar opponent is known for flying into berserk rages, and you've got their beloved daughter hostage or are their jilted lover or something, maybe you can make them flip out completely at the absolute wrong time.
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Apr 16, 2014 05:10
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pospysyl posted:That creates a pretty interesting situation, though, where everyone's afraid to poke at the Solar, because if he gets fed up with you you'll probably die. At that point, the ST would only want to set up really powerful antagonists to challenge Solars socially, because only then will whatever penalties a Solar Limit Break inflicts actually matter. theironjef posted:It creates a situation where anti-solar tech is earplugs and a megaphone. Just shout arguments at him from really far away til he wigs out and slays his own army.
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Apr 16, 2014 05:28
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Zereth posted:I think this feeds back into the idea of Limit Break as a button the player can push to activate Flip Out Mode. Running out of Limit gets you penalties of various sorts... OR you can push the shiny, candylike button and get some bonuses instead at the cost of your character not really being entirely rational anymore, what do you say, hm?  " mechanic.
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Apr 16, 2014 17:14
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Zereth posted:I think this feeds back into the idea of Limit Break as a button the player can push to activate Flip Out Mode. Running out of Limit gets you penalties of various sorts... OR you can push the shiny, candylike button and get some bonuses instead at the cost of your character not really being entirely rational anymore, what do you say, hm? Depends on what you mean by "not really being rational anymore," since I actively dislike the current state of limit mechanics. I don't want PCs to briefly become NPCs at critical moments, and I also don't want a button that's a monkeycheese activator for players that are super into the chaos limits can cause. Personally I've always been partial to the notion of limit breaks shutting down one of the blocks of attributes and boosting another. Like you limit break and for the next scene you can't make any physical rolls at all, can't defend yourself, can't attack, can't move if it would require a roll, but you are inhumanly aware of everything happening to the tune of your mental rolls doubling. You're too busy looking at the essence flows and the space between atoms and going mad over the connected nature of all Creation to defend yourself for a while, but you can still contribute in meaningful ways.
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Apr 16, 2014 17:53
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Knitted Art posted:Oh that reminds me. Are the heroin piss dinosaurs returning on 3E? Given StephenLS's hatred of anything remotely "memetic," probably not. Edit: To be clear, StephenLS isn't really wrong about that. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Apr 18, 2014 |
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Apr 16, 2014 21:58
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theironjef posted:Depends on what you mean by "not really being rational anymore," since I actively dislike the current state of limit mechanics. I don't want PCs to briefly become NPCs at critical moments, and I also don't want a button that's a monkeycheese activator for players that are super into the chaos limits can cause. Personally I've always been partial to the notion of limit breaks shutting down one of the blocks of attributes and boosting another. Like you limit break and for the next scene you can't make any physical rolls at all, can't defend yourself, can't attack, can't move if it would require a roll, but you are inhumanly aware of everything happening to the tune of your mental rolls doubling. You're too busy looking at the essence flows and the space between atoms and going mad over the connected nature of all Creation to defend yourself for a while, but you can still contribute in meaningful ways. This is cool as hell, though I wonder if it might be more thematic for Solars specifically to have their caste abilities go into overdrive (so a Dawn powers up all combat, Twilight goes ultra-genius) but another caste's abilities can't be used at all. I would probably let players pick the caste of abilities that cannot be used, so long as it contributes something significant to their character. Then, for Lunars, I would probably do it exactly like you said. Sidereals, I would actually like to see their restriction be something similar but their bonus being "After you finish rolling to do something, you can apply excellencies once more, but are still limited by your dice cap."
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Apr 17, 2014 00:22
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The heroin pissing dinosaurs are confirmed to exist in some form in EX3.
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Apr 22, 2014 01:30
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Exrandu posted:The heroin pissing dinosaurs are confirmed to exist in some form in EX3. I never got the issue with the HPDs. They see an interesting biological experiment. I see nothing wrong with them. Not on rape ghost levels.
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Apr 22, 2014 02:00
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Yeah, making them climb on top of buildings and roar to indicate distress or pain or needing to be *ahem* milked so as to more thoroughly turn them into Godzilla references was silly, but I'm perfectly okay with the Beasts of Resplendent Liquid as an example of what happened when First Age Solars got really bored and/or high, and how what amounts to a single Twilight's graduation prank has become both the cornerstone of a business empire (the Guild's drug trade) and a crucial strategic asset for the Realm (the one that pees anagathics).
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Apr 22, 2014 03:03
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The problem is that the Beasts of Resplendent Liquid as written are really cool, but heroin-pissing dinosaurs as a fan shorthand for "This is how lolawesome Exalted is!" is sort of annoyingly lame, and there's no separating them. I think Holden's take is "Eat it, Lea, they're fun." EDIT: Also Holden is a tremendous Godzilla fan, on the level "Has seen all the movies" and "Will cheerfully critique them not just on comparative quality, but on how closely each director came to achieving what appears to be his creative vision." So I would not expect the skree-onk to be removed from the things. Stephenls fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 03:48
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Stephenls posted:The problem is that the Beasts of Resplendent Liquid as written are really cool, but heroin-pissing dinosaurs as a fan shorthand for "This is how lolawesome Exalted is!" is sort of annoyingly lame, and there's no separating them. Dragon Kings confirmed 4/22.
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Apr 22, 2014 05:49
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theironjef posted:Dragon Kings confirmed 4/22. Didn't they already show a charm that lets Lunars turn into Dragon Kings? There would never be a good reason to axe Dragon Kings. If anything, they're sorely underutilized.
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Apr 22, 2014 06:00
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Dragon Kings are awesome why would we want to ditch our semi-benevolent sleestak ankylosaur-men?
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Apr 22, 2014 06:02
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I'd get really flippin' angry if there were no more dinosaur people on the setting! Good job not taking them off!
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Apr 22, 2014 11:49
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Stephenls posted:Dragon Kings are awesome why would we want to ditch our semi-benevolent sleestak ankylosaur-men? Never even do it on accident. Just put them in a book called "Dragon Kings and Alchemicals: The Only Book You Actually Need".
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Apr 22, 2014 16:05
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The Jadeborn were really neat setting wise, so were the Dragon Kings. I ended up liking them more than I did most of the Exalt types.
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