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isme posted:Vinland Saga is by far my favorite historical manga, but this chapter has "ruined my immersion" a little by constantly bringing up "MEN SAIL BOATS! WOMEN PROTECT THE HOME!". Which is technically all not that true in Viking culture. Especially since there are plenty of historical accounts of women actively fighting along men as equals. And also the History channel constantly reminding us about shieldmaidens in the series Vikings. As a basic outline it is fairly accurate though. You did have examples of norse women fighters it was by not common or the norm for a woman to be one. Worth highlighting as well though is that the fact the the women held the keys to the household was a pretty big thing. The wife was generally the person ultimately responsible for household affairs and you have plenty of examples in the sagas of the wife either driving the family fortunes into the ground or being a major reason for a family to prosper. That's not even going into all the times when they were driving feuds between the various families. In general Aud the Deep Minded is is probably a more prominent example of what a strong Norse women was than Lagertha. She didn't go warring or a-viking but organised one of the largest groups of settlers to Iceland and if you read the Icelandic sagas most genealogies took pains to point out exactly how the person talked about was related to Aud... But yeah, in general more respect was given to women in Scandinavian culture and in a lot of the sagas they are given a lot of agency and are often one of the prime drivers of the events but they generally didn't go off and punch horses or split people's heads. We might see a pregnant bare breasted half sister of Leif taking up a sword and scaring a native raid on the Vinland settlement. I came across this interesting little article about Viking women btw: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/women_01.shtml [edit] Also, History Channel. lol. [re-edit] Having actually read the chapter then yeah, some women did outfit and lead expeditions (like the aforementioned Aud) but again it was a distinct exception. On another note, was I the only one to have a double-take at "Leif-san" and the very Japanese trope cutting the hair thing? Finally, history is still a spoiler. I do wonder how the details will be treated. Munin fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 11:52
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Not to mention this is in the midst of heavy Christianization.
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Apr 6, 2014 19:27
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Vinland Saga is going nicely. I like Gudrid. I was worried for a second when I read spoilers saying it looked as if she was Thorfinn's love interest, and then when I went to read the new chapter she was a little girl at first. Thank goodness she was older in the rest of the chapter. It seems that the real person Thorfinn was loosly based on was Thorfinn Karlsefni, so it's easy enough to find probable "spoilers" for some details of the story from looking him up on Wikipedia.
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Apr 6, 2014 22:16
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Not to promote the derail, but a lot of the talk on the rarity of shield maidens is made up as hell. When digging up old battle fields and categorizing bones, historians literally decided that there were viking men with thinner frames and larger hips and generally more womanly bones, due to the ~gene pool~ allowing such a gene to exist and be common. Similar things have been found with how other non-christian/muslim nation's armies were composed - compared to even twenty years ago, numbers estimate that something like twenty to thirty times the number of women that were originally 'estimated' to have fought in armies actually did. A big one, if I remember correctly, was egypt, where it's now estimated that as much as two fifths of egypt's armies could have been women. Though, egypt did not value its army greatly, and it was mostly made up of the poor/people who couldn't find any other way to survive. Similarly, the whole trope of women dressing as men to join the army in china is currently considered something that was much more common than originally expected - the huge amount of value placed on family and your parents meant that it encouraged daughters, considered mostly useless in the society, to try and defend their family by taking up arms when conscription happened. Japan had the Onna-bugeisha, who were women of the samurai class trained in the art of war. They were trained with weapons that had long reaches, and were generally respected as much as anyone else of the samurai class. It wasn't until the edo period (nearly 1500 years after the first record of what became the Onna-bugeisha) that they started dying out, due to the government employing a ton of restrictions on women's rights, until finally in 1600ish AD the idea that Japan still sort of has of women evolved. So saying that 'x culture's female warriors were super rare!' is in a lot of ways not true. They weren't as common as male warriors, but they weren't some horribly rare thing that never happened. They actually became more uncommon as time went on, until recent years where they've become rather common. KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 23:11
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KittyEmpress posted:Not to promote the derail, but a lot of the talk on the rarity of shield maidens is made up as hell. Could you link to some of that research around women being a significant presence on various ancient battlefields? That sounds rather interesting. And yeah, the role of women in Japan was rather different before Confucianism took hold. Rag on as you, justifiably, want about how patriarchal Christianity is it generally didn't have a patch on the social order most Confucian societies adopted in that regard. Zorak posted:Not to mention this is in the midst of heavy Christianization. I wouldn't make to much of that as far as described gender relations go. One thing to bear in mind is that the sagas (which are in many ways the main source for all of this) were written (or recorded depending of what outlook you take on the works) by Christian writers around the 1200s; about 200 years after the fact. Despite that they are still our main sources for most of that history. Any Christian influence is already present in the sources and they generally still give a prominent role to women. Also in the same way Christianity adapted heathen festivals to better fit in with local culture it didn't instantly ride roughshod over local social roles and arrangements (well, within reason of course). Don't picture of the practical and doctrinal approach of late medieval Spain as the model for Christianisation here. Aside from gender relations another thing I find interesting is how writers like Snorri Sturluson handle the heathen gods; their and their ancestors' relationship to them.
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Apr 7, 2014 13:13
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Strange, the previous chapter seems to pretty clearly imply that Gudrid is supposed to be Sigurd's bride, but now she's married into Lief's family?? In any case, yeah that's a waifu if ever there was.
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Apr 8, 2014 02:39
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Strange, the previous chapter seems to pretty clearly imply that Gudrid is supposed to be Sigurd's bride, but now she's married into Lief's family?? History might be a spoiler. Like some of the other stuff it looks like it got streamlined considerably from the little we've seen so far. Gudrid the Far-travelled was once widowed according to Erik's Saga, twice according to the Saga of the Greenlanders, by the time she married Thorfinn. She had traveled to Greenland with her father, according to the saga of Erik the Red, or with her husband Thorir (who died shortly after arriving), according to the Saga of the Greenlanders. She then went to Vinland with her first/second husband Thorstein, the son of Erik the Red, who dies in Vinland. It's only after all that she goes on the voyage with Thorfinn who she met and married in Greenland. Leif is not part of Thorfinn's expedition. She is a prominent character in both sagas but more so in Erik's Saga. One of the reasons for her prominence is most likely the fact that she herself was seen as a devout woman (she went on a pilgrimage to Rome after Thorfinn's had died and her son was married and she ultimately became a nun) and that three of the early Bishop's of Iceland were all her and Thorfinn's descendants, as is specifically called out at the end of both sagas. From what I can tell the Bishops were Thorlak Runolfsson, Bjorn Gilsson and Brand Sæmundsson (third and fourth on the list linked). As I said the two sagas which are generally used as sources for all this, the Saga of the Greenlanders and the Saga of Erik the Red, conflict slightly and he seems to have taken plenty of liberty with the sources already so they are not a precise guide to what will happen in the manga but if people are interested here are links to translated versions of both. Erik's Saga: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17946/17946-h/17946-h.htm The Saga of the Greenlanders: https://notendur.hi.is/haukurth/utgafa/greenlanders.html - Just spotted that this is missing what they designated as chapter 7...
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Apr 8, 2014 13:44
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Anyone know if Ganso Ylva-chan was ever translated? Doesn't seem to, but I am surprised considering the popularity of Vinland Saga.
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Apr 8, 2014 20:18
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Kingdom 358 and 359 are out.  Chapter 359 is approaching Houken levels of cutting peoples limbs off / bodies in half. The two page spread goddamn. Looks like the real fight is about to start now though.
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Apr 10, 2014 21:44
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I find myself rather bemused by the idea of Shin being given "treasures" how does that even work? He gets shown a selection of jewelry and picks the ones he wants?
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Apr 10, 2014 23:38
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I wanted to pick a page for the "Describe a manga in one image" thread for Kingdom but goddamn there are too many choices. I finally got around to reading it and the drat thing is one of the most consistently epic things...
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Apr 11, 2014 19:48
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New Cesare. Viva la Reconquista!
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Apr 15, 2014 03:49
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Fans of Otoyomegatari may enjoy this article with incredible pictures of a young Kazakh girl training to hunt with golden eagles.
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Apr 15, 2014 22:20
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Reminds me of a comic called Shuto Heru that takes place in ancient China 
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Apr 15, 2014 22:46
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 This is Makpal Abdrazakova, she is 25, and she lives in Aksu-Ayuly, central Kazakhstan
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Apr 16, 2014 10:41
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A few more chapters of Kingdom are out, seems like we're moving into a new arc. Kingdom 364: "I'm okay with the second goal." 
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Apr 17, 2014 16:08
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I just started reading Kingdom and HOLY poo poo I can not get over these loving faces. Not that I've dropped reading it, just that I literally do a doubletake every time I get to a closeup on someone. 80% of the characters look like they're wearing drama masks.
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Apr 21, 2014 07:55
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7c Nickel posted:I just started reading Kingdom and HOLY poo poo I can not get over these loving faces. Not that I've dropped reading it, just that I literally do a doubletake every time I get to a closeup on someone. 80% of the characters look like they're wearing drama masks. I feel like it's intentional since Kingdom is a very theatrical portrayal of the this part of China's history. Would also explain why the generals are so loving massive.
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Apr 21, 2014 08:06
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7c Nickel posted:I just started reading Kingdom and HOLY poo poo I can not get over these loving faces. Not that I've dropped reading it, just that I literally do a doubletake every time I get to a closeup on someone. 80% of the characters look like they're wearing drama masks. The art will remain janky, but the weird faces become 100% appropriate once you get to the giant-rear end battles.
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Apr 21, 2014 08:22
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Kingdom just doesn't seem that weird if you've seen Sengoku Basara.
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Apr 21, 2014 08:24
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Handsome Squidward moved to ancient China and became a general. Guess which.
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Apr 21, 2014 11:46
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Pierson posted:Handsome Squidward moved to ancient China and became a general.
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Apr 21, 2014 19:58
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BTW today 5 (yes 5!) chapters of kingdom were posted, go read it like right now.
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Apr 21, 2014 20:35
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Kassad posted:
That is a badass... coat  Gotta have some nerves to handle a big rear end bird of prey like that.
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Apr 21, 2014 21:19
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papasyhotcakes posted:BTW today 5 (yes 5!) chapters of kingdom were posted, go read it like right now. Holy poo poo looks like the author changed art style pretty suddently: 
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Apr 22, 2014 04:30
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It just had a year of time skip and they're all teenagers so I assume that's just aging.
Sindai fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 05:01
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Harem route looking more and more likely!
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Apr 23, 2014 08:29
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But Ei Sei has had a harem for 100s of chapters, now? 
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Apr 23, 2014 16:50
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Mangasky has all of kingdom up till 378 translated.
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Apr 23, 2014 19:07
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Now that Vinland Saga's badassery has been toned down (Thorkell, I miss you), Kingdom is my main supplier of
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Apr 23, 2014 19:34
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Angry Lobster posted:Now that Vinland Saga's badassery has been toned down (Thorkell, I miss you), Kingdom is my main supplier of 
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Apr 23, 2014 19:40
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HenryEx posted:But Ei Sei has had a harem for 100s of chapters, now? Don't start using your filthy logic on my Harem route!
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Apr 23, 2014 23:33
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I would be pretty surprised at this point if Shin doesn't marry both of them by the end of the series.
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Apr 24, 2014 04:06
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I've been getting into more historical manga lately with a kind of focus on Showa era Japan. I've read Mizuki's Showa vol 1 and Onwards Toward Our Noble Deaths, Tatsumi's A Drifting Life, and the first two volumes of Nakazawa's Barefoot Gen. I've really enjoyed all of them and am looking for more stuff in that vein. Do you have any suggestions?
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Apr 24, 2014 15:52
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Started reading Vinland, but a bit dissappointed. I know it's a japanese comic, but why it has to be so.. anime? I mean it has so much of anime tropes and it's super cartoony, with the frank noble being a weird frog toad in the first story and Thorfinn's dad defeating twenty armed warriors unarmed with jujutsu moves. It might as well be any kind of fantasy land, instead of being more or less historic. I don't like Game of Thrones that much, but it really feels the series captures the mentality of middle ages pretty well, with horrible violent assholes and treating women and peasents like dirt. Are any other historic comics more historical?
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Apr 24, 2014 18:18
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ManOfTheYear posted:Are any other historic comics more historical? Well, have you checked out Historie already? There's a good summary of it in the OP, and I'd say it's a lot more historically accurate than Vinland Saga. Of course Iwaaki still takes some liberties with history, some of them good (we don't know very much about the life of Eumenes so Iwaaki is free to fill in the gaps with some interesting stuff), some not so good (without going too much into spoiler territory, personally I'm not too keen on how he's handled Hephaestion).
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Apr 24, 2014 19:20
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ManOfTheYear posted:Started reading Vinland, but a bit dissappointed. I know it's a japanese comic, but why it has to be so.. anime? If you haven't gotten to Thorkell yet, you haven't begun reading Vinland Saga. In all honesty, Thorfinn is the worst character for like, 50 chapters because he's so drat anime. Everybody else is a crazy-rear end viking doing crazy viking activities. Also, at some point around chapter 30 it became a monthly series and the art quality got insane. The story starts picking up from there on too. Slim Jim Pickens fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 19:33
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ManOfTheYear posted:Started reading Vinland, but a bit dissappointed. I know it's a japanese comic, but why it has to be so.. anime? I also prefer Historie and Otoyomegatari because they suffer much less from Anime overload.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:42
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"UGHHH, this is truely something aweful... Why the gently caress did they have to put so much gaddamn ANIME in this here MANGA ??!!?!?" - an actual, literal, and even common complaint by Goons.
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Apr 24, 2014 20:01
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ManOfTheYear posted:Started reading Vinland, but a bit dissappointed. I know it's a japanese comic, but why it has to be so.. anime? Well, don't read Kingdom. Do read Vagabond, and if you're up for something not action-y, read Oyomegatari.
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Apr 24, 2014 20:12
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