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MeLKoR posted:They can worship the same god and not be christians. Frankly I don't see why mormons would be any more christian than muslims, they both have prophets and sacred texts that came after christ. Mormons still claim that the New Testament is factual truth and that Jesus is the son of God, so if we're ranking groups by "Christianness" I would definitely argue that Mormons are more Christian than Muslims.
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Apr 15, 2014 18:18
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The universe either does or does not have an architect (I lean toward does). Everything else is wiki editor pedantry and psychological projection.
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Apr 15, 2014 18:55
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Ugh, Conservapedia, you have anything interesting to add?quote:Popular televangelist claims four blood moons are sign of ‘world-shaking event’.[4] No, just talking about the Modern metagame. God, why did I not get one at $9?
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Apr 15, 2014 20:01
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Do Baha'i worship the same god as Jews, Christians and Muslims? What about Raelians, they worship Elohim. Is that the same Elohim as referenced in the Torah?
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Apr 15, 2014 20:31
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WoodrowSkillson posted:He is making perfectly good sense. Should Jews acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah? Some do, they're called Christians. I'm not being smart-arsed here, Christianity can be considered a sect of Judaism that disagrees about the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies. Jews are mostly fairly relaxed about this but there are some that consider them to be apostates and refuse to deal with them. Do we say that the God of Jesus is not the God of Moses? Of course not, because that destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity (and of course the source of most of the poo poo that turns up in this thread, Christianity's reliance on the Old Testament). It's pointless to use one religion's standards to judge another because you rapidly disappear into a complete morass. Pretty big chunks of the Orthodox world consider Catholics to be apostate, and vice versa - whose standards do we then use to define which is Christianity and which isn't? What about the low-church Protestant sects that consider Catholicism to be literal satan-worship? If it comes to it, big chunks of Christian dogma are appropriated (from the Greeks, the Muslims, European pagan traditions, minor Semitic religions, you name it) and would be unrecognisable to early Christians - the big shindig they're about to have in a few days, for a start, not to mention that whole Christmas thing. An early Christian would certainly consider any modern Christian sect to not be Christian.
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Apr 15, 2014 20:36
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goddamnedtwisto posted:If it comes to it, big chunks of Christian dogma are appropriated (from the Greeks, the Muslims, European pagan traditions, minor Semitic religions, you name it) and would be unrecognisable to early Christians - the big shindig they're about to have in a few days, for a start, not to mention that whole Christmas thing. An early Christian would certainly consider any modern Christian sect to not be Christian. And we should care about this because? I agree that all these religions are related. But to say that they have "the same god" seems to assume that the god in question is in some way real and there is a problem with the message being transmitted. That's a fairly orthodox component of Islam but I don't see why Jews and Christians would have to accept it. Hell, the divinity of Jesus Christ is pretty much the defining component of Christianity and that is absent in Judaism, Islam, Baha'i and Raelianism (and other assorted New Religions). On the other hand, LDS recognizes the divinity of Jesus which is why they are often lumped in with other Christians but once you get into their cosmology beyond Jesus most people start backing away from that grouping pretty quickly.
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Apr 15, 2014 20:39
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Shbobdb posted:And we should care about this because? Jews and Christians don't have to accept it, just like the Pope doesn't really have to care about Ian Paisley calling him the Antichrist. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all fit in the big tent of "claim to worship the God of Abraham" and the vital word there is "claim". If God (or gods) were real, hair-splitting about who does or doesn't worship the same god would have some meaning but - crucially - we would still be in the same philosophical position unless He decided to rearrange all the stars in the Milky Way to spell the words ITS THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS, because there would be no way of testing whether or not a given religion had it right. (FWIW many Christian sects *do* recognise Muslims as worshipping the same God, just doing it in a different (I consciously avoid the use of the word "wrong" here) way)
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Apr 15, 2014 20:53
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Ugh, Conservapedia, you have anything interesting to add? Who's actually left of the Moral Majority anymore? Pat Robertson's completely senile and Falwell's dead, so I guess that just leaves Hagee and his constant ravings about the end times.
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Apr 15, 2014 20:58
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quote:Christianity is unique among religions in that its followers are defined by faith rather than by adherence to a prescribed code  Andy isn't alone in this but I just can't get over Christians who say that Christianity is different than other religious because we don't have to follow a bunch of rules, but you'd better not have premarital sex or be gay or get an abortion or... rkajdi posted:I think you're a little off on faith vs. works. Works are actually supposed to be doing good things, like feeding the homeless and protecting the weak-- in short, doing Jesus-like stuff minus the miracles. Believing in the right things by definition would be faith, not works. I was using a very loose definition of "works" admittedly in the sense of "things you do" that are unrelated to faith in who Jesus is and what he did. Since believing the earth is billions of years old is a "thing you do" separate from beliefs of Jesus being the messiah or dying on the cross, it falls under "works based" salvation as far as I'm concerned. Because honestly I don't see a fundamental difference between God saying "You believed Jesus was my son and died for your sins but you didn't do enough good works so off to Hell you go" and "You believed Jesus was my son and died for your sins but you didn't believe the earth was only 6,000 years old so off to Hell you go." Both are saying that faith alone wasn't enough, there was additional things you had to do/believe for Heaven. Anyway...what's going on in the world of Conservapedia? quote:Popular televangelist claims four blood moons are sign of ‘world-shaking event’.[5] quote:Pastor John Hagee, of Texas’ Cornerstone Church, believes God is trying to communicate with humans through these celestial signs. Man, if only God could just speak directly to human beings...
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Apr 16, 2014 01:43
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Twelve by Pies posted:Man, if only God could just speak directly to human beings... Nigh-Omnipotence is a really high power cost, and Jehovah didn't really think things through during character creation when he took the disadvantage "Can Only Appear to Crazy People" to balance it out.
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Apr 16, 2014 01:57
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Blarghalt posted:Who's actually left of the Moral Majority anymore? Pat Robertson's completely senile and Falwell's dead, so I guess that just leaves Hagee and his constant ravings about the end times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-79uI_u9Src
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Apr 16, 2014 01:58
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Ugh, Conservapedia, you have anything interesting to add? 
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Apr 16, 2014 02:06
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rkajdi posted:Most of fundamentalism gets around this via cheap salvation, meaning that if you're faithful all you need to do is say you're sorry to God and it's all good. This creates exactly the poo poo situation you'd think, where believers can be effectively as amoral as they wish, since it can easily be forgiven. Garbage like that is what drove me out of the church (my old church's position on LBGT people and increased education/skepticisim kept me away permanently) because it inverts any normal morality a person could hold-- the unsaved are bad regardless of what good they do, and the saved are awesome regardless of how poo poo they are as humans. This also results in fundamentalists who seem to think charity and being nice to people are sinful in and of themselves, to the point of advising suspicion against churches that do those things rather than run ex-gay camps or other horrors. This you may recognize as the morality of Captain Planet villains.
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Apr 16, 2014 03:07
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I don't really think there's fundamentalists that think charity and being nice are sinful in and of themselves. The issues are probably that one, they think that stuff like ex-gay camps or campaigning against abortion are more important than charity and being nice and that the churches are bad for focusing on the "wrong" priorities. Two, they might think that the charity is going to "the undeserving" and thus the churches are perpetuating socialism by giving lazy poors "free stuff." If they were giving charity to the "right" kinds of people, then the charity would be fine. And as for the being nice part it's probably talking about how good has no fellowship with evil, or that "tough love" is better for making people stop all that sinning they're doing. But in either case it isn't that they see the acts as sinful in and of themselves, just either wrong priorities or being used in a sinful way.
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Apr 16, 2014 05:08
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Jews and Christians don't have to accept it, just like the Pope doesn't really have to care about Ian Paisley calling him the Antichrist. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all fit in the big tent of "claim to worship the God of Abraham" and the vital word there is "claim". If God (or gods) were real, hair-splitting about who does or doesn't worship the same god would have some meaning but - crucially - we would still be in the same philosophical position unless He decided to rearrange all the stars in the Milky Way to spell the words ITS THE BRANCH DAVIDIANS, because there would be no way of testing whether or not a given religion had it right. So, you recognize that some people think they are worshiping the same god and others don't think they are. I still don't really see a compelling reason to see why they are worshipping the same god other than crazy. Which is what you wrote. Again, it all works from a Muslim perspective (aside from Baha'i and Raelians, but those work in a "bigger umbrella" kinda way -- are all Muslims Baha'i? Are all Raelians Christian?). So, are they all Buddhas? Is the greater vehicle the biggest umbrella? Is everyone a Mahayana Buddhist? Edit: Please do answer these questions, but a better way of saying the same thing is saying that you really haven't justified your position in any way beyond saying that it is true (1). 1) Fact. Shbobdb fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Apr 16, 2014 |
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Apr 16, 2014 07:22
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Hasters posted:Good point, another example would be mainstream Protestants and Mormons. The LDS says it's the same God but theres such a huge difference between the Book of Mormon and the Bible that many Protestants don't consider Mormons Christian. Yeah, and I'd take that with a huge loving mine of salt since many religious followers never understand even the basic tenants of any religion including their own. You might as well ask a room full of monkeys whether the gravitational theory makes sense. MeLKoR posted:They can worship the same god and not be christians. Frankly I don't see why mormons would be any more christian than muslims, they both have prophets and sacred texts that came after christ. Mormons still believe Christ is the son of god and their savior and do follow the Bible along with the BoM. Islam says Christ was a prophet. You're kinda comparing apples to oranges here SocketWrench fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Apr 16, 2014 |
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Apr 16, 2014 12:12
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Twelve by Pies posted:I don't really think there's fundamentalists that think charity and being nice are sinful in and of themselves. The issues are probably that one, they think that stuff like ex-gay camps or campaigning against abortion are more important than charity and being nice and that the churches are bad for focusing on the "wrong" priorities. Two, they might think that the charity is going to "the undeserving" and thus the churches are perpetuating socialism by giving lazy poors "free stuff." If they were giving charity to the "right" kinds of people, then the charity would be fine. And as for the being nice part it's probably talking about how good has no fellowship with evil, or that "tough love" is better for making people stop all that sinning they're doing. There's still poo poo Christians for it, regardless of their reasoning. Number of abortion clinics protested by Jesus: 0 Gay torture camps run by Jesus: 0 Poor and downtrodden people directly helped by Jesus: Fuuuuu... Also, not giving to the right kind of people is again exactly against the bible. Jesus picked the people with the shittiest raps possible and did things for them. The basis of the religion is a pretty good one until you realize that only a small amount of the bible is actually about Jesus's actual life-- you know, the supposed center point of the religion. So you get a bunch of regressives leafing through it to find the parts from either the counter-rev Paul or the ancient racist just-so story of the old testament to justify their thoughts while ignoring what the man himself actually did.
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Apr 16, 2014 13:25
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SocketWrench posted:Mormons still believe Christ is the son of god and their savior and do follow the Bible along with the BoM. Islam says Christ was a prophet. You're kinda comparing apples to oranges here Unless I'm mistaken about what I've heard of Mormonism, this isn't exactly true. Pretty much every Protestant denomination and Catholicism/Orthodoxy believe Jesus and God are one and the same. Mormonism says that Jesus and God are two separate and different beings. What's more, unlike most other Christian denominations which say that God is eternal and always existed and has always been omnipotent, Mormonism states that God was once a mortal man who died and then was reborn as God and then Jesus was born by God's wife. I'd say this is way different enough from traditional Christianity (assuming I'm not wrong about these things) that if you're going to say Islam doesn't count as worshiping the same God, then Mormons don't either. rkajdi posted:There's still poo poo Christians for it, regardless of their reasoning. Hey no argument here.
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Apr 16, 2014 13:46
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Blarghalt posted:Who's actually left of the Moral Majority anymore? Pat Robertson's completely senile and Falwell's dead, so I guess that just leaves Hagee and his constant ravings about the end times. Presumably once most people examined their morals and rejected ideas like concentration camps for gays and theocracy in all aspects of life, they shut up. Thereafter, they became the mythical silent majority.
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Apr 16, 2014 13:47
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Shbobdb posted:I still don't really see a compelling reason to see why they are worshipping the same god other than crazy. All three are Abrahamic faiths, this is an accepted part of theological studies. But you just seem hell bent on otherizing Muslims. By your logic Christians who believe in the Trinity (where God has three components: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) are definitely not worshipping the same deity as Jews (because it means Jesus == God) and probably aren't worshipping the same God as other Christian churches who see God and Jesus as separate individuals.
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Apr 16, 2014 13:51
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Twelve by Pies posted:I'd say this is way different enough from traditional Christianity (assuming I'm not wrong about these things) that if you're going to say Islam doesn't count as worshiping the same God, then Mormons don't either. Islam is like when Hollywood wants to make a second sequel to a successful movie but they have to retcon the main character of first sequel because he was way overpowered and introduce a new protagonist but it's still the same in the same franchise. Mormonism is more like a wacky spin-off that loosely borrows from the same universe. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Apr 16, 2014 |
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Apr 16, 2014 14:45
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Those Nestorian heretics worship a false God  Don't you call them Christian!!And not those Arian pagans, with their one-natured Christ! Oh and not the Catholics who changed the Creed, nor the Lutherans who deny the necessity for intercession by the clergy, nor those unbaptized Anabaptists, nor those treacherous Orthodox apostates who denied Christ under torture instead of martyring themselves. You're either a pure Donatist Christian or a heathen!
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Apr 16, 2014 15:00
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McDowell posted:All three are Abrahamic faiths, this is an accepted part of theological studies. No one is saying they aren't all Abrahamic faiths. So what? quote:But you just seem hell bent on otherizing Muslims. Hey, it's a baseless conjecture used as an ad hom, how about that! quote:By your logic Christians who believe in the Trinity (where God has three components: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) are definitely not worshipping the same deity as Jews (because it means Jesus == God) and probably aren't worshipping the same God as other Christian churches who see God and Jesus as separate individuals. Jews and Christians aren't worshipping the same god. Whether other Christian churches are worshipping the same god depends on how different their beliefs are. How about you answer some of those questions I asked! Specifically, are we all Mahayana Buddhists? Do the Raelians worship the same god as Christians/Muslims/Jews/Baha'i/other new religions?
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Apr 16, 2014 15:06
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Why are you so hell bent on being a dick about this?
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Apr 16, 2014 15:14
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Can we all agree that there is no objective way to say whether two religions are/are not worshiping the same god?
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Apr 16, 2014 15:20
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RagnarokAngel posted:Why are you so hell bent on being a dick about this? For real, worrying about if the god someone else prays to is different then other ones is getting pretty "angels dancing on a pinhead". It doesn't actually make any difference in the real world, so what the point in worrying about it?
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Apr 16, 2014 15:23
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The debate kind of rests on how you define "same god", I guess. God isn't even someone that we can verify the existence of, so what does it mean for two religions to worship the same god? Do we mean that they have shared historical origins? There's a clear evolution between God in Judaism and God in Islam and Christianity, so in that sense they're the same god. But on the other hand, they're fairly different characters (unless He's just really bad at communicating). They have different rules, demand different things of their followers, and in some cases have different personalities. In that sense, I think it's sort of meaningless to call them the same god - each religion seems to be describing different characters. They're the same god in some ways, but not in others.
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Apr 16, 2014 15:29
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Alien Arcana posted:Can we all agree that there is no objective way to say whether two religions are/are not worshiping the same god? Yeah Imma go with this. All religions require a bit of narrative storytelling on the part of its followers because we're talking about stuff that's not directly observable. If they say its the same God it is, if they don't it's not. It's a consensus decision.
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Apr 16, 2014 15:32
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Wheeze posted:The debate kind of rests on how you define "same god", I guess. God isn't even someone that we can verify the existence of, so what does it mean for two religions to worship the same god? Do we mean that they have shared historical origins? There's a clear evolution between God in Judaism and God in Islam and Christianity, so in that sense they're the same god. But on the other hand, they're fairly different characters (unless He's just really bad at communicating). They have different rules, demand different things of their followers, and in some cases have different personalities. In that sense, I think it's sort of meaningless to call them the same god - each religion seems to be describing different characters. They're the same god in some ways, but not in others. The Bible itself describes multiple seperate deities with their own personalities and tries to hope nobody notices. I'm not even referring to old/new testaments, this thread has gone into some pretty cool derails about the origins of Judaism and Elijah/Jehovah before. Ergo all Jews and Christians are polytheists and it is not possible to worship "the same" God and this is why it's a stupid argument. Shbobdb posted:Hey, it's a baseless conjecture used as an ad hom, how about that! No it isn't, it's an accurate description of exactly what you're doing, regardless of intent.
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Apr 16, 2014 15:33
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goddamnedtwisto posted:(FWIW many Christian sects *do* recognise Muslims as worshipping the same God, just doing it in a different (I consciously avoid the use of the word "wrong" here) way) And on the other end of the spectrum are people that believe that Allah is literally Satan in disguise and Muhammad was sent here by the devil to tempt people away from Christianity. Christianity is a massive religion with over a billion followers. Some of them view Muslims as "basically Christian, just misguided" while others view them as over a billion soldiers in Satan's army that must be fought at every turn. They're both Abrahamic religions with similar origins to be sure but the beliefs from one Christian to the next can be dramatically different. Some people just want everybody to be bros and get along; others want to literally exterminate followers of the other religion.
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Apr 16, 2014 16:51
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Oh, cool, 50 new posts in the 'Let's Laugh At Andy S.' thread! *looks* *backs away slowly from thread* (Yeah, I know, I know, I could properly contribute, but I'm posting from the Middle East, and I'm just going to assume that my IP will be blocked.)
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Apr 16, 2014 17:20
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Shageletic posted:According to Epistles to the Galtians, James actually did pretty well by himself. He headed the Church in Jerusuleum, his branch eventually being scuffed into obscurity eventually by the Paul influenced communities in Rome, Alexandria, and Constantinople. There was some rivalry for control of the fledgling Christian church, but the Jerusalem branch headed by James was usually regarded as the preeminent one. Paul didn't get along with the Jerusalem elders that well. The razing of the city of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD meant that Paul's churches in Greece and Rome were the ones that actually survived, even though Paul had been dead for a few years by this point, and thus the ones which got to dictate the future of the church. E: I guess my point being that it wasn't so much a gradual erasure of status and preeminence as "Well, they're all dead. Guess that means we're in charge now."
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Apr 16, 2014 17:42
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Spangly A posted:. Still not seeing an argument here.
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Apr 16, 2014 18:33
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Sometimes I do not know if I should pity him or hate him http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/15/phyllis-schlafly-equal-pay_n_5154150.html Then I look at conservapedia and the hate returns.
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Apr 16, 2014 18:36
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Shbobdb posted:Still not seeing an argument here. Then you're willfully dense and I can't help you, you don't have anything resembling a point.
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Apr 16, 2014 18:37
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Spangly A posted:Then you're willfully dense and I can't help you, you don't have anything resembling a point. Finally we're back to talking about Conservapedia.
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Apr 16, 2014 18:46
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Twelve by Pies posted:Mormonism states that God was once a mortal man who died and then was reborn as God So God is kind of like Galactus. I can get on board with that.
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Apr 16, 2014 19:48
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Georgia Peach posted:So God is kind of like Galactus. I can get on board with that. In Marvel Comics one of the creators of Galactus IS god.
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Apr 16, 2014 19:50
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FADEtoBLACK posted:I will always remember the scene in The West Wing when Sheen completely destroys the female version of Andy's take on the Bible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r024iK2a7w It's really subtle at the end, but apparently she's holding a tray of crab puffs, also an abomination.
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Apr 16, 2014 20:22
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I think that Bartlett bit began life as an email forward about Dr. Laura.
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