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Kasonic posted:Yeah, this thread is a big downer during spoiler season. I'm big into design and love to appreciate all the angles and formats of Magic, whereas most people here are immediately dismissive of anything that's not a Standard/Modern $20 monster.
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Apr 17, 2014 07:47
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Veyrall posted:Actually, this thread completely ignored the existance of Sphinx's Revelation when it was spoiled. It's kinda funny. There's no way I wasn't super stoked about a UW card draw spell! Although I do remember a lot of people going "life gain who cares Blue Sun's Zenith sucked and this is worse" so maybe I wasn't!
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Apr 17, 2014 07:49
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Veyrall posted:Actually, this thread completely ignored the existance of Sphinx's Revelation when it was spoiled. It's kinda funny. As I've said in earlier threads, middle tier players love to be jaded and poo poo talk cards. And they're just as wrong just as often as newbie players. Figuring out cards before you've played them is extremely difficult and it is very easy to imagine the wrong moving parts in the huge equation that is every format. And yeah I can totally remember not thinking Revelation was going to be a big deal. People always misjudge life gain cards, that is one ironclad rule.
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Apr 17, 2014 07:55
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Did we know that Verdict and Sphere were coming by the time Revelation was spoiled? We were coming from an environment that had relevant regeneration creatures and where the only board wipe not only couldn't kill those for good, but could be counterspelled. And this is when the 6 mana mark was just breaking away from the Titan Test. It's not hard to see why a spell you almost never try to cast for less than 6 cmc might be underestimated -- especially for a control deck in an environment where control hadn't been doing much lately. I mean sometimes people are just plain dead wrong but I think a common trend in this thread isn't that everyone is terrible at evaluating cards so much as that everyone evaluates them within the most recent metagame without an eye for where it might be good in the future. You only need to look at how we handled Thragtusk for that. Everyone could tell it was strong, but I don't think anyone predicted it was going to be like a year straight of midrange decks that made Thrag the superstar it was. Most people (self included) were looking at it wondering if it was more than a mere speedbump to Delver, not "hey, the mana cost is really permissive and we probably have shocks incoming, so this guy can show up in a lot of decks, and if we get some nice strong removal to enable a midrange environment, he could be a big deal." Nehru the Damaja fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Apr 17, 2014 |
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Apr 17, 2014 07:59
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Yay, story on cards! Boo, coolest villain is just dead now and Theros is going to return to the status quo completely! It's great art though. Can't deny that. Nehru the Damaja posted:Reasonable things Veyrall fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Apr 17, 2014 |
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Apr 17, 2014 08:03
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Veyrall posted:Yay, story on cards! Boo, coolest villain is just dead now and Theros is going to return to the status quo completely! From reading the book descriptions Bronze provided, Xenagos sounds more like just an rear end and doesn't seem remotely cool. Gynovore posted:Based on today's poo poo, I'm going to say that unless Jund gets some beefy tools in JOU, Azorius/Esper control will be off the charts until next block. Banishing light and D-Sphere give it eight cards that can handle anything, plus a two-mana instant that makes gods go bye-bye. Sweet. Bant and WBR might be cool.
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Apr 17, 2014 08:10
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From looking through salvation (and some choice quotes): D Sphere was 9-13-12 quote:So maybe U/W control will be a real deck? Rev was 9-13-12 quote:Revelation is cool; it's not absurdly good, but it's decent in decks that would otherwise run 'draw x' spells. Could see it making a splash in UW decks in casual formats, being relevant in limited... maybe in standard. Verdict was 9-6-12 quote:The new wrath isn't too bad either I guess.
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Apr 17, 2014 08:10
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rabidsquid posted:There's no way I wasn't super stoked about a UW card draw spell! Although I do remember a lot of people going "life gain who cares Blue Sun's Zenith sucked and this is worse" so maybe I wasn't! That's just because people like to repeat the mantra that life gain sucks. But lifegain only sucks in a vacuum where the only choice is Healing Salve.
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Apr 17, 2014 08:10
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Angry Grimace posted:That's just because people like to repeat the mantra that life gain sucks. But lifegain only sucks in a vacuum where the only choice is Healing Salve. Life gain sucks if it's all that you're doing (unless it's a huge amount of life). Incidental life gain has always been fantastic.
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Apr 17, 2014 08:18
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People are guessing Theros is going to go back to the status quo now that Xenagos is (apparently) dead, but do we know if anyone has ever actually killed a god on Theros before? Seems like that might be kind of a big deal.
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Apr 17, 2014 08:25
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Eeevil posted:People are guessing Theros is going to go back to the status quo now that Xenagos is (apparently) dead, but do we know if anyone has ever actually killed a god on Theros before? Seems like that might be kind of a big deal. "There will come a time when the gods will look at mortals and shudder." —Uremides the philosopher White has been getting some awesome flavor lately, admittedly.
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Apr 17, 2014 08:29
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Eeevil posted:People are guessing Theros is going to go back to the status quo now that Xenagos is (apparently) dead, but do we know if anyone has ever actually killed a god on Theros before? Seems like that might be kind of a big deal.
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Apr 17, 2014 08:34
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LightReaper posted:Further to the point, was there ever a R/G god before Xenagos? I had assumed it was a forgotten god that would resurface but I'm not too up on my greek lore.
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Apr 17, 2014 09:21
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Zemyla posted:Based on the Temple of Abandon, there once was but there was no longer. (Also, I love the double meaning of "Abandon" there.)
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Apr 17, 2014 09:41
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Eeevil posted:People are guessing Theros is going to go back to the status quo now that Xenagos is (apparently) dead, but do we know if anyone has ever actually killed a god on Theros before? Seems like that might be kind of a big deal. People are also assuming that the destruction of Xenagos the god necessitates the destruction of Xenagos the walker. I wouldn't be surprised if he is just forcefully removed from godhood and he (or maybe just his spark) survives in some form. Then, his spark finds its way to New Phyrexia and is used to grant the Phyrexians planeswalking. 
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Apr 17, 2014 13:15
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They will revel in the chance to spread the good word. 
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Apr 17, 2014 13:18
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Behold: Gods End, not God Send. Can someone explain if nu-O-ring solves the infinite loop problem the old one had? It's too early for me to think about minute differences in templating and how they affect super edge cases.
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Apr 17, 2014 13:20
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O-ring could hit your own things, nu-O-ring only hits opponents' permanents. I think that's the change they made between Banisher Priest and Fiend Hunter, too.
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Apr 17, 2014 13:25
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That seems more like it's to resolve the feelbad "I'll sacrifice my legal targets in response, now you have to exile one of your own things" (which, admittedly, is more of an issue with the creatures-only guys). The fact that you can't infinite-loop it is a secondary benefit.
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Apr 17, 2014 13:40
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Night Danger Moose posted:O-ring could hit your own things, nu-O-ring only hits opponents' permanents. I think that's the change they made between Banisher Priest and Fiend Hunter, too. Huh. I missed that when I was reading the card. I'm going to be a lot crankier about losing that functionality than I was the permanent exile trick.
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Apr 17, 2014 13:45
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mango sentinel posted:Xenagos shows the gods to be pseudofrauds and instead of forcing the gods to deal with Elspeth just kills Xenagod and restores the status quo? Hopefully mortals remain The thing is, it doesn't matter if Xenagos was right in this case. After he became a god there was one god who just wanted to party (and let's be honest his partying was probably more like rioting, which for a god can be, y'know, devastating), two gods that wanted to protect the mortals, and the rest of the gods either ambivalent or trying to kill everything on Theros. Plus there's the whole issue with the barrier between Nyx and Theros tearing apart so creatures from Nyx started flooding into the mortal world and trying to kill everything. Besides, Xenagos still made his point, and the people of Theros will still know that not only did a mortal become a god, but then a mortal killed a god. Things will be different on Theros. Also considering Elspeth exiled Xenagos and didn't destroy him he's probably still somewhere in the multiverse.
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Apr 17, 2014 14:14
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Jabor posted:That seems more like it's to resolve the feelbad "I'll sacrifice my legal targets in response, now you have to exile one of your own things" (which, admittedly, is more of an issue with the creatures-only guys). The fact that you can't infinite-loop it is a secondary benefit. Opponent can't use it on the gifted Akroan Horse
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Apr 17, 2014 14:17
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There's that one satyr card where the flavor text is a quote about Xenagos becoming a tyrant, so maybe the moral of the story is that few if any individuals can be gods without going into dick mode. Which sort of helps make Xenagos's point for him, yeah.AlternateNu posted:Then, his spark finds its way to New Phyrexia and is used to grant the Phyrexians planeswalking. I will accept this iff we get to see a Xenagos/Urabrask buddy comedy where they wander the multiverse fighting the power.
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Apr 17, 2014 14:20
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BaronVonVaderham posted:Holy poo poo balls. Instant favorite card in the set, not the least reason being that this is a straight up upgrade to Revoke Existence for my sideboard, since those are just in there for gods in the first place. Move to instant speed and tack on a free Slaughter Games? Yes please. It doesn't hit Artifacts... And Whip, Bident and Spear are things.
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Apr 17, 2014 14:37
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mcmagic posted:It doesn't hit Artifacts... And Whip, Bident and Spear are things. You gave enchantments as examples. :shh:
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Apr 17, 2014 14:40
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End of Life Guy posted:You gave enchantments as examples. LOL I'm dumb. I always forget they are enchantments too... Carry on. I guess there are no artifacts that are relevant in standard right now? other than like pithing needdle?....
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Apr 17, 2014 14:41
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Yeah it's actually an Erase with a colorless tacked on with the Slaughter Games effect. I mean the only non-enchantments Revoke Existence was hitting in Standard were Pithing Needles, but those Pithing Needles are big game against planeswalkers. It's definitely a contextual choice rather than a straight upgrade. e: I guess if your meta is exclusively goons then not hitting Trading Post or Akroan Horse could be relevant...?
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Apr 17, 2014 14:42
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mcmagic posted:It doesn't hit Artifacts... And Whip, Bident and Spear are things. So what you're saying is... it isn't strictly better than Revoke Existence? /  Not being able to hit artifacts means pretty much nothing in this set when the only relevant artifact that isn't also an enchantment is Godsend. (And we don't even know if that'll be relevant yet.)
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Apr 17, 2014 14:43
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MiddleEastBeast posted:Have people at Wizards explicitly said that they're moving to this new templating for all temporary exile effects going forward? I can see how it's more new-player-friendly but I miss the wonky stuff the old template used to allow for. Maro said in his podcast that they're deliberately trying to do away with interactions where when you explain it to a new player they feel like you're trying to pull one over on them. He brought it up in reference to Faceless Butcher and said they'd "fixed" it with recent versions of the same effect. And I kind of agree. When you explain some weird combo to a new player, you want their reaction to be "that's awesome, I want that in my deck", not "WTF is this rules-lawyering bullshit".
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Apr 17, 2014 14:51
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Entropic posted:And I kind of agree. When you explain some weird combo to a new player, you want their reaction to be "that's awesome, I want that in my deck", not "WTF is this rules-lawyering bullshit". The Oblivion Ring tricks are analogous to damage-stacking tricks, and the arguments for and against both are the same. I think people who miss either* are grognards. *I'll make an exception for people who are just way too fond of Mogg Fanatic. Those people are simply misguided.
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Apr 17, 2014 14:59
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And I know some people will say "but cloudshifting my Fiend Hunter in response to its ETB trigger is awesome!" and it sort of is, but come on now, don't pretend it's anything but a weird rules glitch.
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Apr 17, 2014 15:05
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Veyrall posted:Actually, this thread completely ignored the existance of Sphinx's Revelation when it was spoiled. It's kinda funny. No, it was actually fairly reasonable. The environment at the time was not favorable towards control, with Zombie aggro and people naturally trying to find the best Thragtusk deck after Birthing Pod rotated. It took until December for deckbuilders to finally manage decent success using Sphinx's Revelation with the subsequent price hike. The card is fringe Modern playable, not Legacy playable, and it's existence will mostly be ignored past October (until more bannings in Modern make UWR a reasonable deck again). Have some fun in spoiler season, but if you're going to call out the past in hindsight at least do it fairly. "oooh thread is so bad at card evaluation because we couldn't see 3 months into the future" what bullshit.
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Apr 17, 2014 15:05
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Entropic posted:And I know some people will say "but cloudshifting my Fiend Hunter in response to its ETB trigger is awesome!" and it sort of is, but come on now, don't pretend it's anything but a weird rules glitch. Yeah, I mean, I got someone good with Fiend Hunter and a sac outlet in an Innistrad draft once. And it was funny, certainly, but I didn't feel particularly clever for having done it. Once you know you can do that you've exhausted the strategic depth the trick presents and you're just left sounding like a cheater whenever you explain it.
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Apr 17, 2014 15:08
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Deicide's a pretty cool card, but if Wizards wanted to see at least a few of their Gods get played, isn't it kind of dumb for them to print that card?
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Apr 17, 2014 15:10
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They've made an effort to print check valves on possible problems, and I'd file this under that category. It's a great answer, but you'll probably not be maindecking it it and you can't just shove four in your sideboard unless a god/enchantment heavy deck really grabs control of the meta so you still have to draw it. It's strong but it doesn't just end the world for a deck with gods in it.
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Apr 17, 2014 15:17
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Northjayhawk posted:Deicide's a pretty cool card, but if Wizards wanted to see at least a few of their Gods get played, isn't it kind of dumb for them to print that card? I doubt Deicide will be ubiquitous enough to hose Gods out of the format. It's not really maindeckable (you see a 1-of Revoke Existence in some Esper Control maindecks but that's it as far as I recall for enchantment hate pre-board). Creeping Corrosion didn't stop people from running artifacts in Scars block, Rest in Peace in RTR didn't kill Reanimator last year. Even a powerful hate card isn't going to have that kind of impact on the format unless the format's already out of control, in which case it's doing what it's supposed to. It might exert some pressure on specifically the monoblue deck, where Thassa is basically the card that justifies the deck in the first place. But even then, the format could just ignore it. Bile Blight was supposed to kill monoblue out of the format too, remember.
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Apr 17, 2014 15:23
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Northjayhawk posted:Deicide's a pretty cool card, but if Wizards wanted to see at least a few of their Gods get played, isn't it kind of dumb for them to print that card? Not everyone plays white, nor can those that do necessarily run it maindeck.
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Apr 17, 2014 15:23
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I think the existence of Deicide might, like, discourage people? I doubt you'll see it push existing archetypes out of the format but I could see some number of people being less willing to experiment with new archetypes or new cards because of its existence. I don't think that'll prevent the good gods from seeing play, assuming they've got the support, but it might mean they develop slower than they would otherwise.
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Apr 17, 2014 15:27
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Attorney at Funk posted:Yeah, I mean, I got someone good with Fiend Hunter and a sac outlet in an Innistrad draft once. And it was funny, certainly, but I didn't feel particularly clever for having done it. Once you know you can do that you've exhausted the strategic depth the trick presents and you're just left sounding like a cheater whenever you explain it. If you don't take inordinate amounts of joy in the crestfallen look of your draft opponent who just ate your Sedge Scorpion with his Polukranos when you explain that deathtouch is any damage, not just combat damage, I don't want to know you. I still lost the game and match  Post your favorite rules-feelbads
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Apr 17, 2014 15:36
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Re: Deicide and gods, they've said that they try to print safety outlets against certain mechanics/cards in case they messed up in development, and Deicide seems like one of those to me.
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Apr 17, 2014 15:38
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