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OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Tacier posted:

I didn't realize it was so light. I think I was imagining it as a little smaller than a CX-5 when it's probably not much bigger than a Juke.

length 4295 mm / 169.1 in, width 1770 mm / 69.7, wheelbase 2610 mm / 102.8 in.

Yeah it's very slightly larger than the Juke yet also seemingly 400 lbs lighter, though maybe Japan has different methods for calculating curb weight.

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
The Fit weighs somewhere between 2496 and 2628lbs. HS-V will probably add around 200lbs to that, so you'd start at 2700 and hit 2800 with options.

The Fit is very light. It's one of the lighter road vehicles you can buy these days.

travisray2004
Dec 2, 2004
SuprMan
That's really impressive. I don't know what surprises me more. That there's a new car on the road that is in the 2500 range or that there's a cuv that weighs 2800.

Wheeee
Mar 11, 2001

When a tree grows, it is soft and pliable. But when it's dry and hard, it dies.

Hardness and strength are death's companions. Flexibility and softness are the embodiment of life.

That which has become hard shall not triumph.

Honda has the best engineers in the business.

They just happen to be directed toward turning Honda into Toyota.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

travisray2004 posted:

That's really impressive. I don't know what surprises me more. That there's a new car on the road that is in the 2500 range or that there's a cuv that weighs 2800.

poo poo, the Mazda2 weighs like 2300.

travisray2004
Dec 2, 2004
SuprMan

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

poo poo, the Mazda2 weighs like 2300.

Yeah, I keep forgetting that the 2 is ridiculously light. I get that modern safety standards tend to add weight but feel that a lot of manufacturers use this as an excuse. Then again, because of the fact that a traditional sedan now pushes 3500-4000lbs, I could see why the majority buying public would choose heavier/bigger.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

travisray2004 posted:

Yeah, I keep forgetting that the 2 is ridiculously light. I get that modern safety standards tend to add weight but feel that a lot of manufacturers use this as an excuse. Then again, because of the fact that a traditional sedan now pushes 3500-4000lbs, I could see why the majority buying public would choose heavier/bigger.

The Mazda2 is also clown car small. As cars get bigger, they get bigger in all three dimensions. There's just a hell of a lot more steel required to build the vehicle.

Cars can certainly be built lighter, but it's expensive to do so.

travisray2004
Dec 2, 2004
SuprMan

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

The Mazda2 is also clown car small. As cars get bigger, they get bigger in all three dimensions. There's just a hell of a lot more steel required to build the vehicle.

Cars can certainly be built lighter, but it's expensive to do so.

That's very true but at the same time the Fiesta was a Top Safety Pick for 2013 and that starts for less than the 2 does. Granted it's a 50-100lbs heavier but looks to be a lot safer as well.
Now that I'm writing this though, I do remember reading that the IIHS ranked 10 small cars as less than acceptable for the small overlap front test.

travisray2004 fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Apr 18, 2014

tijag
Aug 6, 2002
VWUSA just announced pricing for the GTI a few days ago.

Is the headlights upgrade reliable? Moving parts for headlights seems like an easy point of failure, but I'm tempted to spend a bit extra to have the updgraded lighting. It looks nice.

Guinness
Sep 15, 2004

My 10 year old E46 has adaptive xenons and they still work marvelously. Seriously, they own on dark windy roads. They sound like a gimmick but they work really well.

tijag
Aug 6, 2002
That's good to know.

Now, what should I be trying to negotiate for?

Base price is $24,395, + $1495 Performance pack + $995 bi-xenon AFS upgrade + destination charge = $27,705. Is there a resource that will give me an idea of what the 'invoice' cost is to try to get the best possible deal?

Snowdens Secret
Dec 29, 2008
Someone got you a obnoxiously racist av.
The GTI's adaptive xenons are probably the same units they've been running on the A3 for years.

And yeah, once you've driven down a windy road at night with them you'll never want a car with fixed lights again. Tucker was right.

tijag
Aug 6, 2002
This is insanity. To get the 2 features I want [keyless ignition/entry and rear view camera] I need to also take leather seats and a sunroof, two things that I don't like and don't want.

jink
May 8, 2002

Drop it like it's Hot.
Taco Defender

tijag posted:

This is insanity. To get the 2 features I want [keyless ignition/entry and rear view camera] I need to also take leather seats and a sunroof, two things that I don't like and don't want.

drat sunroofs! My MKIV GTI had one and I only had issues with leaks and a lack of headroom to show for it. :arghfist:

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

親子丼をほしい。

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

The Mazda2 is also clown car small. As cars get bigger, they get bigger in all three dimensions. There's just a hell of a lot more steel required to build the vehicle.

Cars can certainly be built lighter, but it's expensive to do so.

It's small, but I can fit 4 people comfortably in the car. My coworker's 2011 WRX and Volvo S60 basically had an inch or two more room and nicer materials (and acceleration). It's a great back to basics car. I have one, nm has one, asmasm has one, destructo had an autotragic for a rental, and goatse guy had been eyeing one.

The only complaint I have about it is the rear suspension, but it's completely competent and a hoot to drive. Also it's a great example along with the S2000 for what electric steering can feel like.

e: for comparison, the 1994 Miata has a curb of 2293lbs. My 2012 2 has a curb of 2306lbs.

tijag
Aug 6, 2002

jink posted:

drat sunroofs! My MKIV GTI had one and I only had issues with leaks and a lack of headroom to show for it. :arghfist:

Yes, the leather seats are whatever. I like the standard cloth ones. But leather is nice. But I hate sunroofs. Cuts down on headroom and can potentially leak. Also more places for creaks to creep up.

Literally Lewis Hamilton
Feb 22, 2005



tijag posted:

This is insanity. To get the 2 features I want [keyless ignition/entry and rear view camera] I need to also take leather seats and a sunroof, two things that I don't like and don't want.

2011 was the last year for individual options before it largely went to packages. The mk7 at least has some individual options.

The bi-xenons on my mk6 TDI are AWESOME. Highly recommended.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
Truck doing truck things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FArkGOtYzM8

Militant Lesbian
Oct 3, 2002

tijag posted:

Yes, the leather seats are whatever. I like the standard cloth ones. But leather is nice. But I hate sunroofs. Cuts down on headroom and can potentially leak. Also more places for creaks to creep up.

I've owned 5 vehicles with sunroofs/moonroofs, and the only one that ever leaked was the 300k mile Datsun pickup with a poorly installed aftermarket sunroof originally made for use on a boat.

Super Aggro Crag
Apr 23, 2008




And, of course as always, kill Hitler.


The last 2 cars I've owned have had sunroofs and I don't think I could go back. It's so pretty.

Coredump
Dec 1, 2002

I'm with tijag on this. The sunroof in my car takes away precious headroom for me, and the rubber fiberglass gasket on the top is starting to separate ever so slightly. Apparently the only way to fix that is put in a whole new sun roof assembly which runs for $1,000 the last time I checked online.

atomicthumbs
Dec 26, 2010


We're in the business of extending man's senses.
On the other hand, blasting Motorhead at ninety miles an hour on US Route 50 in Nevada with the windows and sunroof open

VERTiG0
Jul 11, 2001

go move over bro
I hate the hot sun blaring down on my head. If I wanted that poo poo I'd have bought a convertible.

KakerMix
Apr 8, 2004

8.2 M.P.G.
:byetankie:

VERTiG0 posted:

I hate the hot sun blaring down on my head. If I wanted that poo poo I'd have bought a convertible.

So pull the shade across your sunroof like a total cool guy!

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.
Yeah definitely agree on sunroofs - they're a terribly lovely thing to have to put up with.

My previous cars have all had sunroof and I think the one I opened most was on my old 90 Integra and that was only to try and stop it from leaking.

PCOS Bill
May 12, 2013

by FactsAreUseless
I used to have a first gen Forester with that beautiful 3' sunroof and I miss it on beautiful days, and night driving with the wife.

angryhampster
Oct 21, 2005

My experience with sunroofs has been a mixed bag. My MK4 GTI had a leaky sunroof that creaked whenever I hit uneven ground or bumps. My Maxima's is perfect. No additional noise, no leaks, and I still have plenty of headroom.

Spatule
Mar 18, 2003
I used to drive a black Peugeot 407sw with black leather seat and glass roof (that didn't open) and I hated every single second of it 4 months per year. The heat was like stepping into Saudi Arabia even if it was just warmish outside , 75F or so, if there was any sun (note for skeptics: I travel to Saudi Arabia 3-4 times per year).
Looked nice/classy though for the people in the back.
My parents (original) CRV had a leaky/rusted sunroof after 6 years.

gently caress SUNROOFS. Maybe if the seats are cooled / ventilated and not leather, and it's a company car. Maybe.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

tijag posted:

That's good to know.

Now, what should I be trying to negotiate for?

Base price is $24,395, + $1495 Performance pack + $995 bi-xenon AFS upgrade + destination charge = $27,705. Is there a resource that will give me an idea of what the 'invoice' cost is to try to get the best possible deal?

edmunds.com

Sunroofs own y'all weak babies. Chicks dig em.

Steve French
Sep 8, 2003

I like sunroofs, and have never personally had a problem with them, but I can understand why others might not due to potential leaking and heat issues.

However, those of you complaining about headroom must either be gigantic, drive clown cars, or have some extreme upright seat position. I'm not a particularly short person (6'2 or so) and my head is not even close to touching the headliner of any of the cars I've owned with a sunroof (2003 allroad, 2003 A4, 2007 GTI)

Steve French fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Apr 19, 2014

Residency Evil
Jul 28, 2003

4/5 godo... Schumi
FYI the leather seats in the gti own bones.

actionjackson
Jan 12, 2003

Steve French posted:

I like sunroofs, and have never personally had a problem with them, but I can understand why others might not due to potential leaking and heat issues.

However, those of you complaining about headroom must either be gigantic, drive clown cars, or have some extreme upright seat position. I'm not a particularly short person (6'2 or so) and my head is not even close to touching the headliner of any of the cars I've owned with a sunroof (2003 allroad, 2003 A4, 2007 GTI)

I have headroom issues in my 2011 A4 Avant due to the sunroof, and I'm 6'1". This is with the seat all the way back and lowered.

Cocoa Crispies
Jul 20, 2001

Vehicular Manslaughter!

Pillbug
Before everyone goes off and rattles off how tall they are and whether they're cramped or not in their car, remember that not everyone has the same proportional height between their calves, thighs, and torsos.

pik_d
Feb 24, 2006

follow the white dove





TRP Post of the Month October 2021
I'm glad VW aren't actually making this car because it would be way to expensive and I'd be way too tempted



http://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/19/volkswagen-golf-r-400-concept-beijing-official/

press release posted:

World premiere of the 400 PS Golf R 400 sports car concept

– 280-km/h Golf showcases sporty potential of the model series
– Exclusive Golf R 400 accelerates to 100 km/h in 3.9 seconds
– Design and technology of the Golf R 400 is based on motorsport

Ten key facts on the world premiere of the Golf R 400:

1. Golf R 400 reflects the sporty potential of the model series.
2. The "400" in Golf R 400 stands for its power of 400 PS.
3. The concept car develops 100 PS more than the Golf R.
4. Specific power of 200 PS per litre displacement and power-to-weight ratio of 3.55 PS per kilogram are on the same level as a super sports car.
5. Acceleration from 0 to 100 km/h in 3.9 seconds and 280 km/h top speed (governed).
6. Design of the Golf R 400 was customised to a great extent.
7. The R 400 concept is based on the technology of the new Golf R.
8. Flared wings are a tribute to the legendary Rallye Golf G60 (from 1988, motorsport homologation model).
9. Permanent 4MOTION all-wheel drive impressively transfers the car's extraordinary power to the road.
10. Customised interior with motorsport shell seats in Alcantara and carbon leather.

Wolfsburg / Beijing, April 2014. The latest Golf R production model was introduced just recently. With 221 kW / 300 PS of power. All-wheel drive. It handles the sprint to 100 km/h in 4.9 seconds and attains a top speed of 250 km/h (governed) – this is the sharpest production Golf ever and one of the most agile sports cars in its class. But the potential of the Golf – which made its debut exactly 40 years ago and developed into one of the world's most successful cars – enables even further extensions to the limits of what is feasible in sporty performance. Volkswagen is demonstrating at Auto China 2014 just how far these limits can (currently) be extended in the world premiere of the Golf R 400 concept car. Its name reflects its mission. It is a Golf developed by Volkswagen R GmbH – the brand's sports car manufacturer. 400 stands for 400 PS (294 kW). The powerful engine with the genes of the WRC racing version propels the Golf to 100 km/h in 3.9 seconds. Its top speed, assuming that a German motorway or race course is available: 280 km/h (governed).

3.55 kg per PS. The Golf R 400, including its all-wheel drive system, weighs just 1,420 kg thanks to its compact high-performance engine (2.0 TSI), lightweight dual-clutch gearbox and low body weight. Its weight-to-power ratio is a dominant 3.55 kg per PS. The permanent all-wheel drive system by Volkswagen – 4MOTION – is also one of the most fuel-efficient systems of its kind. In addition, the Golf is also exceptionally aerodynamic, as the R 400 as well. Perfection in details runs through the entire concept of the Golf R 400 – from the engine to the largely new body design. This extreme Golf is painted in "Silver Flake"; creating a contrast to this light metallic colour are the car's glossy "Black" roof and mirror caps in genuine carbon. Also designed in painted carbon effect are the splitters (wrap-around aerodynamic parts) adapted from motorsport and genuine carbon accents in the interior. Special features of the Golf R 400 in detail:

R 400 turbocharged engine

200 PS per litre displacement. The Golf R 400 is powered by a 2.0 TSI with the technical genes of the WRC racing engine. Compared to the 221 kW / 300 PS Golf R, the Golf R 400 develops 100 PS more power, thus providing 295 kW / 400 PS (at 7,200 rpm) – which is 200 PS per litre of engine displacement. This specific power figure lies on the same level as that of super sports cars. The engine's maximum torque was increased by 70 Newton metres to 450 Newton metres (between 2,400 and 6,000 rpm).

R400 all-wheel drive system and running gear

4MOTION. Typical of all Golf R cars, due to their exceptional power reserves, has always been their permanent 4MOTION all-wheel drive system. Of course, this also applies to the Golf R 400 being shown in Beijing. In this car, the all-wheel drive system is coupled with an automatic 6-speed dual-clutch gearbox (DSG), which can also be shifted manually as an alternative via the gear shift lever or steering wheel paddles.

Clever control. The 4MOTION all-wheel drive of the Golf R, which has been perfected with such features as a Haldex-5 coupling, is activated even before slip occurs. Traction loss is practically prevented by this. The system makes use of a pre-control strategy here, which depends on the specific driving state. Under low load conditions, or during coastdown, the front wheels transfer most of the propulsive power, while the rear axle is decoupled. This basic tuning saves on fuel. If necessary, the rear axle of the Golf R can be variably engaged in fractions of a second as soon as this becomes necessary. This is done by means of the Haldex coupling that is activated by an electro-hydraulic oil pump.

EDS, XDS, ESC Sport. Along with the Haldex coupling, which acts as a central differential lock, the electronic differential locks (EDS) integrated in the Electronic Stability Control (ESC) system act as transverse differential locks. In addition, the Golf R 400 is equipped with the XDS+ system on both the front and rear axles, which brakes the wheels at the inside of a bend during fast driving through bends, and which optimises steering response as a transverse differential lock. Last but not least, the Golf R 400 has an "ESC Sport" function like that of the production model. The system is activated via a two-stage switch on the centre console. When the driver presses the button once briefly, this selects the "ESC Sport" mode of Electronic Stability Control (ESC). During very fast driving with lots of bends – e.g. on a race course – the ESC does not intervene as frequently, which enables even more agile handling properties. If the ESC button is held down more than three seconds, the system is fully deactivated for professional drivers on a race course.

Sport suspension and new wheels. The sport suspension of the production Golf R, which lowers the ride height by 20 mm compared to the base Golf, did not have to be changed for the Golf R 400 thanks to its large power reserve. In front, the two Golf R versions each have a MacPherson-type suspension with lower wishbones, while what is known as the modular performance suspension (multi-link suspension) is used at the rear. The tyres are also the same on both cars: 235/35 R 19. The alloy wheels of the Golf R 400 are a new development. Their design is based on the 19-inch "Cadiz" production wheels, but they were highly modified and equipped with high-gloss black inserts which, as air vanes, perfect cooling in the reinforced brake system.

R 400 exterior

Side profile. Volkswagen Design made wide-ranging design changes to the Golf R 400. For one, the body was widened by 20 mm on each side to accommodate the 19-inch wheels that are further outboard due to their larger wheel offset. In front, the designers developed an entirely new wing, which – as a modern interpretation of the legendary Rallye Golf G60 (from 1988) – are significantly flared. Similarly, the rear side panels over the wheel housings of the Golf R 400 were also flared. The wheel arches are painted in body colour as a uniform part of the new wings and side panels. In addition, the bottoms of the sides are characterised by a wrap-around splitter made of visual carbon that is a very flat aerodynamic element derived from motorsport. Perfection in the details: the fibres of the visual carbon parts in the exterior area that just have a matt coating are aligned in the driving direction, and as arrow-shaped elements they emphasise the dynamism of the R 400. Above the splitter, designers also adapted the side sills to the new contours, creating a uniform transition to the newly designed wheel arches.

Front end. Designers have redesigned the front end of the Golf R 400 as well. Beneath the high-gloss black radiator grille with its "R badge", on a background in "Lemon Yellow", the Golf R 400 also features a line in "Lemon Yellow". Similar to the line of the Golf R (chrome line), Golf GTI (red line) and the new Golf GTE (blue line), it forms the termination of the grille towards the rear and continues into the headlights on the left and right. Beneath this line, there is a type of slot that serves as an air inlet on the Golf R 400 to help cover the car's elevated cooling requirements. The bumper was also completely redesigned. The central air inlets have a surround that is a wing-like element made of carbon effect, which visually appear to hover in the bumper. The lines of this aerodynamic element run horizontally up to the height of the bi-xenon headlights, then they bend in a V-shape towards the rear, and finally describe the form of a C (left) and a reversed C (right). Self-contained wing elements in high-gloss black also hover in the lower air inlets. Between the aerodynamic element of visual carbon and the high-gloss black wings (as well as within these black elements) there is a protective screen whose honeycomb structure – like so many details of the Golf R 400 – is reminiscent of motorsport vehicles. Since the wing element protrudes somewhat further forward, this gives it a progressive three-dimensional appearance. As in the side profile, there is also a motorsport-derived splitter in carbon effect at the front.

Rear section. At the rear, the wrap-around motorsport splitters transition into a diffuser, which – like the front wing element – protrudes slightly out from the body. Integrated here are the two central exhaust tailpipes. The reason: in contrast to the Golf R with its four tailpipes (two each, left and right), the Golf R 400 follows the design of the Golf R32 – the original R-series model presented in 2002. Specifically, there are two polished tailpipes with a diameter of 110 mm, which are spaced 200 mm apart from one another and extend slightly upwards. Perfection in the details: the exhaust tailpipes have an inner part that is visible from the outside, which repeats the honeycomb design of the front air inlet. The designers also redesigned the rear bumper; at each end of the bumper there is a carbon inlay in a C-shape (reversed C on the right). The reflector is integrated in the lower horizontal part of the C; the vertical part protrudes slightly from the bumper. Here the designers have worked in a wheel arch exhaust vent.

Dual rear spoiler design. The black roof transitions into a roof spoiler that is also in black. It has two levels: viewed from the rear, the gaze is directed through the two "flying" spoilers, one above the other, to the roof. Designers have integrated an LED brake light bar in the rear spoiler.

R 400 interior

Shell seats in Alcantara and carbon leather. The interior of the Golf R 400 has also been extensively customised. The driver and front passenger have motorsport shell seats with integrated head restraints and belt openings. The cross-quilted middle seat panels are designed in Alcantara ("Anthracite" colour); the areas at head level and the inner surfaces of the lateral supports are designed in exclusive "carbon leather". The same applies to the outer side of the shell seats. The decorative stitching and stitch tucks (contrasting seams on lateral supports) create a contrast to the fresh "Lemon Yellow" colour. "R" badges are embroidered in the leather on the backs of the front seats. The rear individual seats are also designed in "carbon leather" on their outer areas, and the inner surfaces are upholstered in Alcantara. The area between the two seats is trimmed in black "Nappa leather".

Carbon accents. Carbon is also the dominant material for accents in the doors and on the passenger's side of the dashboard – in contrast to the exterior, however, it is coated here in a glossy rather than matt clearcoat. The centre console accents, cockpit surround and trim around the air nozzles are designed in glossy black piano finish. Carbon leather is used for the door inserts. The door armrests, meanwhile, have contrasting stitching in "Lemon Yellow". There is white ambience lighting around the door accents and the stainless steel door sill plates. Carbon leather is used in the "R" design of the three-spoke sport leather steering wheel. All leather elements are also customised by decorative stitching in the contrasting colour "Lemon Yellow" – perfection down to the smallest of details.

Nohearum
Nov 2, 2013

pik_d posted:

I'm glad VW aren't actually making this car because it would be way to expensive and I'd be way too tempted
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/19/volkswagen-golf-r-400-concept-beijing-official/

Don't worry they will still issue a press release in a few years saying: "VW considering X for release in USA". They should change their USA logo to a big swollen pair of blue balls.

KakerMix
Apr 8, 2004

8.2 M.P.G.
:byetankie:
There also seems to be confusion on types of sunroofs, mine has a separate opaque piece that I can pull forward to block the sun that is separate from the glass itself. If it was just glass with no sunshade then yeah I'd roast alive here in Florida with the sun constantly beating inside. That said, rocking down some backroad with all the windows down and sunroof open at night is rad as heck.

PCOS Bill
May 12, 2013

by FactsAreUseless
So it's another fast Golf. Wooo?

KakerMix
Apr 8, 2004

8.2 M.P.G.
:byetankie:
I hope they do make it so people that go 'You paid *what* for a Golf???' will bother the dudes who bought this instead of the Rs :v:

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin



Well the global Cruze sure looks different.

quote:

New-Generation Chevrolet Cruze

The much-anticipated new-generation Chevrolet Cruze represents GM’s newest entry in the midsize compact car segment. It was developed by GM’s global R&D team, which gave the Cruze a new clean-sheet design and brand-new architecture. The team’s goal was to set new benchmarks in the segment for fuel economy, handling and intelligent technology.

The new Cruze offers the first expression of Chevrolet's next-generation design language characterized by the slogan "Design with a Heartbeat." Developed with a focus on efficiency and inspired by the Chevrolet Tru Concept, which appeared at Auto China 2012, it features coupe-like flowing lines that support enhanced aerodynamics. A compact body, wheels pushed out to the corners of the car, shorter front and rear overhangs, and a roofline that stretches to the rear make for a spacious interior. A dual-mesh grille extends to the sleek headlights to create a more dynamic visual effect. Chrome-plated trim stretches from the outside rearview mirrors to the rear seat windows, conveying a rhythmic refinement.

The new Cruze is the first model featuring the new-generation Ecotec small-displacement engine co-developed by GM and SAIC. It is available with a choice of the segment's first 1.4L mid-mounted direct injection turbocharged engine or the first 1.5L mid-mounted naturally aspirated engine. The new Cruze is also offered with the all-new DCG seven-speed dual-clutch transmission co-developed by GM and SAIC, an all-new six-speed manual transmission developed in Europe, and the third-generation S6 six-speed automated manual transmission. The powertrains provide best-in-class fuel economy, ride comfort, emissions and quiet performance. The new Cruze is expected to deliver a fuel economy improvement of 14-21 percent compared with its predecessor.

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Powershift
Nov 23, 2009


Looks like they're taking a page out of ford's book, and taking care of North America last because those sales are basically guaranteed anyways.

Taking another page out of the book, in that it looks like that hood and those headlghts would bolt strait onto the current focus without modification.

Powershift fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Apr 21, 2014

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