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Whatever happened to just pointing a generic power armor and saying that it is "Glenda the rear end Kicker"? I don't know, I think that once you get into powered armor and stuff, gender is kind of not needed. You could paint them all as the feminist strike force alpha 1, but also as the bromancers of the Throne and it still all be good. Right? Right? 
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Apr 22, 2014 00:13
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Wait until you show up with a space marine painted black. That's when the argument really begins.
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Apr 22, 2014 00:20
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The best way to demonstrate the unnecessity of boob plate to show that a figure is female is to post actual counterexamples. Here's one which provides room for an ample bosom without obviously compromising protection:  This character is visibly female without having a prominent bosom or exposed midriff or thighs or rear end:  Here's another warrior with a reasonable-looking female-suggested breastplate that doesn't have the pronounced cleavage or exposed belly:  This "pathfinder" character has reasonable padded armor with an exotic/fantasy look, although she is in a fairly passive pose:  This seems obviously female, cheerful, and not exploitative or problematic (and it's a Bobby Jackson sculpt, proving he can do this if he wants to/is allowed to):  And here's a Sandra Garrity sculpt with reasonable coverage but very definitively female figure, face, and hair:  These are all Reaper minis, which I found by searching "female" on their website. But these were the best six figures in the first fifteen pages of results, interspersed with dozens of women partially or almost completely exposed, or, with lovingly-sculpted tit-hugging garments, cleavage windows, clothes actually falling off, etc. Even with a female in futuristic body armor with a helmet, you can suggest femininity with a narrower waist, broader hip, slender arms, etc. without having to carve giant tits or sculpt a ridiculous hourglass:  Here's a modern-fatigues lady from Sedition Wars:  And of course, just to really drive the loving point home, here's an actual woman wearing actual (prop) armor:  Sell me some Brienne of Tarth figures please... Oh. Thanks GRRM.! 
Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 00:26
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Bieeardo posted:Sorry, I simply don't buy that that's necessary in any way, shape or form. Especially not when the subject in question is being rendered as an inch-tall lump of material. It's silly. So how else are you supposed to signify a given model is a woman? I guess anyone in enough armor is going to look pretty androgynous and I don't think facial features are really recognizable when said face is like 3/16" big. Related question, how does current body armor work for large chested women? Do they just cram into a compression top and wear a slightly larger size or what?
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Apr 22, 2014 00:27
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Countblanc posted:A lot of women like playing as women characters in games. I think making female units sexy as the status quo is stupid as hell, but saying "look, you can play as someone who looks like you" is like, not regressive in the slightest. This is something that ended up changing my mind really fiercely regarding 4e dragonborn. I spend about two years as a fairly hardcore Pathfinder fan, and even after I got sick of the company and game and moved to 4e, I still hated the whole "dragonboobs" thing. Right up until one of my friends played a dragonborn and said it was explicitly because she could make a cool, badass dragon girl. It made me reverse my thinking in a few places. Yeah, it's easy to shrug it off and go "Well surely there'd be some other sort of sexual dimorphism," except you DO have to take into account that society puts the male figure as the default, with the female figure being "the male figure plus all their...lady...bits." And yes, the easiest way to identify a female figure IS to give it a bustline. And if you can do that without it being super sexualized and creepy, then I think "having cool badass lady dragon people or cool badass lady spess mahrines" is absolutely worthwhile. It ALSO made me pause to consider that maybe it's really unhealthy to automatically assume "it has a bust" must equate to sexualization.
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Apr 22, 2014 00:30
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bunnielab posted:So how else are you supposed to signify a given model is a woman? I guess anyone in enough armor is going to look pretty androgynous and I don't think facial features are really recognizable when said face is like 3/16" big. quote:Related question, how does current body armor work for large chested women? Do they just cram into a compression top and wear a slightly larger size or what? Badly. e. Oh, hey, but getting better quickly!:  ProfessorCirno posted:It ALSO made me pause to consider that maybe it's really unhealthy to automatically assume "it has a bust" must equate to sexualization. I think the first and third figures in my post above show that you're correct: it's possible to depict a female figure while still providing reasonable coverage. You can make armor look tailored for a woman without being designed to enhance the sexual characteristics of the woman's figure for the enjoyment of men. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Apr 22, 2014 |
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Apr 22, 2014 00:30
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bunnielab posted:So how else are you supposed to signify a given model is a woman? I guess anyone in enough armor is going to look pretty androgynous and I don't think facial features are really recognizable when said face is like 3/16" big. The argument "but how do you tell if a figure is a woman?" may be a little off-center given I never hear "how do you tell if a unit is a man?". Well, until I just typed it, anyway.
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Apr 22, 2014 04:06
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I think Leper has done a pretty good job of showing how you can differentiate between male and female figures without resorting to ridiculous armor.
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Apr 22, 2014 04:10
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Alien Rope Burn posted:The argument "but how do you tell if a figure is a woman?" may be a little off-center given I never hear "how do you tell if a unit is a man?". Probably because that's the default 99% of the time and being able to identify the exceptions is more important.
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Apr 22, 2014 04:16
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But we've shown that you can do that without bared midriffs or cleavage or extensive boob-plate. If you make 'em well, you should be able to tell which minis are male and which are female by comparing them. Oh, this one has narrow hips and broad shoulders? Probably a man. Wider hips, narrower shoulders? Probably a woman.
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Apr 22, 2014 04:46
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JackMann posted:But we've shown that you can do that without bared midriffs or cleavage or extensive boob-plate. If you make 'em well, you should be able to tell which minis are male and which are female by comparing them. Oh, this one has narrow hips and broad shoulders? Probably a man. Wider hips, narrower shoulders? Probably a woman. Yeah I'm not arguing against this at all, I'm just saying that going "Well why don't we hear about being able to tell if it's a MAN" when the default is, in fact, a man, is really dumb.
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Apr 22, 2014 04:50
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Literally The Worst posted:Yeah I'm not arguing against this at all, I'm just saying that going "Well why don't we hear about being able to tell if it's a MAN" when the default is, in fact, a man, is really dumb. Or maybe that's the whole problem in the first place. It's not something that's going to change on account of little plastic figures, of course, but the argument seems to be that women should be singled out... because... they've been singled out before, so why not keep doing that? Maybe that's not what you mean, but that's what it sounds like you're saying.
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Apr 22, 2014 04:57
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Or maybe that's the whole problem in the first place. Because the ratio of cool ladies in fiction to cool men in fiction is so out of whack that we need to really push for more ladies in this stuff. If people don't force more female representation in games, people are just going to think having one cool lady for every five cool men is fine forever, and that's horrible. (I really wish I could think of a better sounding term for this than force, by the way, because that makes it sound really bad.)
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Apr 22, 2014 05:05
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Or maybe that's the whole problem in the first place. That's obviously the problem or this discussion wouldn't be happening, and the alternative for paying more attention to female representation in minis and calling for them to actually look like women would be to do nothing and let things continue as they are. Calling attention to something isn't inherently bad, I don't know why we're acting like that's a problem.
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Apr 22, 2014 05:11
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I don't think it's bad, all I was saying is that it it doesn't necessarily have to be the only way you go about it.
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Apr 22, 2014 05:15
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Because the ratio of cool ladies in fiction to cool men in fiction is so out of whack that we need to really push for more ladies in this stuff. If people don't force more female representation in games, people are just going to think having one cool lady for every five cool men is fine forever, and that's horrible. I find the easiest way to support change is to support it with your dollar. It might take a while and there might be hold outs, but in the end, women take up 51% of the world, and the more that is impressed on people's income and bottom line the faster that will change. Basically, instead of just talking about it do something about it! Voting with your dollar and etc etc. Those that don't change will fall to the wayside of those that do. 
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Apr 22, 2014 06:30
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Wait until you show up with a space marine painted black. That's when the argument really begins. Well maybe I'm playing a freaking Salamander!  I don't really paint a lot of my minis, but I do like to give them different skin tones when I can. This sometimes gets me weird looks, which is doubly annoying when you consider I'm from freaking south america.
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Apr 22, 2014 15:46
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Kerzoro posted:Well maybe I'm playing a freaking Salamander! Those are just white marines in a black-face!
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Apr 22, 2014 16:38
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Axe-man posted:I find the easiest way to support change is to support it with your dollar. It might take a while and there might be hold outs, but in the end, women take up 51% of the world, and the more that is impressed on people's income and bottom line the faster that will change. Basically, instead of just talking about it do something about it! Voting with your dollar and etc etc. Those that don't change will fall to the wayside of those that do. This doesn't actually work very well for women. The target for most of these things is "men," sometimes with an age-demographic qualifier attached, so women liking it is just considered a sidebar. If women play with sexy minis or read sexy comic books or buy sexy video games, then they assume that women like or at least don't mind cheesecakey stupidity. If women don't buy these things, the response is "women just don't like X" and a shrug. There are even cases when too many girls liking something can cause cancellation or otherwise spike a product because "it isn't hitting the target." Paul Dini had some words about this and the response to his cartoons. An artist on the Green Lantern also posted a comic on his experience. That's leaving money on the table really, assuming that girls won't buy certain things ever or not bothering to figure out what they'll buy, but marketing mythology seems to treat gendered sales as a zero sum game--you can't get women without alienating men or something. It all just ends up explaining why we can't have nice things.
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Apr 22, 2014 18:22
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occamsnailfile posted:This doesn't actually work very well for women. The target for most of these things is "men," sometimes with an age-demographic qualifier attached, so women liking it is just considered a sidebar. If women play with sexy minis or read sexy comic books or buy sexy video games, then they assume that women like or at least don't mind cheesecakey stupidity. If women don't buy these things, the response is "women just don't like X" and a shrug. There are even cases when too many girls liking something can cause cancellation or otherwise spike a product because "it isn't hitting the target." Paul Dini had some words about this and the response to his cartoons. An artist on the Green Lantern also posted a comic on his experience. This seems relevant: http://www.themarysue.com/young-wom...campaign=buffer Geeky pursuits are becoming more acceptable for young women, games should be taking advantage of this. We have a generation of young people who were raised on a steady diet of sci-fi and fantasy, Harry Potter, LOTR, Star Wars, anime, etc. The major players in the game industry should be aggresivly persuing this new audience (both male and female) and are instead continuing to focus on 40 year old basement dwellers who have already bought their games.
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Apr 22, 2014 19:36
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adhuin posted:Those are just white marines in a black-face! Reminder that they actually had Salamanders (or, more accurately, most/all of their recruiting population) being ethnically black, then walked that back and now they're magic geneseed jet black instead. e: maybe it always had something to do with the expression of the geneseed but the point was it actually came out as African racial features, not blackface. For as bad as it is when dumb stuff just gets made up and survives as a legacy even after we should know better, it's depressing when game companies actively walk stuff back.
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Apr 22, 2014 20:17
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Alright we were talking about this in badwrongfun and I don't really know where else to post this so v vAnyway, I just wanted to put this offer out there if anyone has a product they're trying to get promoted: I'm going to be running games (oh god so many games) at RAGECon Reno in June, if you have something to sell and would like me to run demo games of it I would be happy to do so pro bono (aside from a copy of the product to actually run, of course) just to get a break from running like 72 hours of Dungeon World and FAE. So, uh, I guess if you want a really small group of dorks in Reno to be briefly exposed to your RPG let me know and I'll see about getting it slotted in.
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Apr 23, 2014 04:40
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JerryLee posted:Reminder that they actually had Salamanders (or, more accurately, most/all of their recruiting population) being ethnically black, then walked that back and now they're magic geneseed jet black instead. e: maybe it always had something to do with the expression of the geneseed but the point was it actually came out as African racial features, not blackface. The problem with other races in 40K is somewhat like the problem of women, at least from a practical perspective. For most of the space marines out there, a black or woman marine should look 100% the same since the figures have sealed opaque helmets. For IG/AM armies, Chaos Cultists, and Dark Eldar, I would totally go with mixed races and sexes. everything else is in sealed armour or so completely alien that it doesn't matter-- i.e. Tau, Orks, Tyranids, ect. I never liked the idea of Salamanders as the "black" chapter, because I'm pretty skeptical that any planet would be racially homogenous after colonization. So every chapter should have a variety of skin tones, even though that usually means a token at best since you only have 3-4 models with bare skin per army. Same thing for Guard Regiments, nothing chaps my as quite like ghettoizing all the Mongolian-looking guys to one regiment, all the blacks to another, ect. An integrated military has been a thing for over 50 years now, we should expect something similar from our wargames.
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Apr 23, 2014 21:06
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If I recall correctly, there's a few female torsos per a box of Eldar Guardians (that is, the basic footsoldiers). Tau uniforms are too baggy and armored to tell, but I'm pretty sure there's an Ethereal model with clearly female body features. Edit: Turns out I was kinda wrong on the Tau, both of the generic Ethereal models are kinda ambiguous. On the other hand, I was surprised how sensible both genders of the Dark Eldar Wyches are. Siivola fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Apr 23, 2014 |
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Apr 23, 2014 21:16
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Siivola posted:If I recall correctly, there's a few female torsos per a box of Eldar Guardians (that is, the basic footsoldiers). Tau uniforms are too baggy and armored to tell, but I'm pretty sure there's an Ethereal model with clearly female body features. Yeah, I did forget about guardians. Mainly because I hate boobplates with a passion. The only female Tau I think of is Shadowsun. And the only way you can tell is she has the option for an unarmoured head. Otherwise, she's basically old school Samus.
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Apr 24, 2014 01:02
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bunnielab posted:So how else are you supposed to signify a given model is a woman? I guess anyone in enough armor is going to look pretty androgynous and I don't think facial features are really recognizable when said face is like 3/16" big. 
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Apr 24, 2014 13:57
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bunnielab posted:Related question, how does current body armor work for large chested women? Do they just cram into a compression top and wear a slightly larger size or what?
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Apr 24, 2014 14:08
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Maybe the one on the left, but at actual fig size I would have to pick one of those up and really really look at it to tell. But, my only real exp with miniature gaming is GW, where "my fist is the size of my face" passes for normal proportions, so I might not be the best judge. All of this is odd to me anyway, the only rpg group I played with as an adult was almost always about half women, so I never really thought of gaming as a male dominated thing. This was before the internet was such a big thing and having never gone to a con or whatever, I guess my exposure to a greater gamer culture was pretty limited. I guess when I was in middle school and played D&D with my friends there were never any girls involved, but gaming was our secret nerd vice so we tried to keep it on the DL. Halloween Jack posted:The biggest problem women have with military body armor is actually a too-long torso, leaving gaps under the arms and the armor bruising their hips or riding up to their chin. Darts allow for shaping ballistic fabric around the bust, but they're still working on perfecting ballistic plates. Well, that is good to hear. Plates are going to be tough to figure out I would imagine. bongwizzard fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 15:07
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Nope.
Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 15:20
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Thank you for this article that clearly shows that boobplate is in no way becoming "more accurate for modern armour," and for the other article that doesn't show any boobplate at all.
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Apr 24, 2014 16:17
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No.
Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 16:22
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Halloween Jack, that's still not boobplate. E: I mean seriously, that's just giving body armour reasonable measurements. That has nothing to do with boobplate. Tollymain fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 27, 2014 01:21
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Leperflesh posted:e. I realize my user avatar is problematic, by the way; someone bought it for me, with good intentions, and I didn't want to be rude by changing it. But I'm thinking right at the moment that I probably should, huh? Your posts are often well thought out, informative, and enjoyable to read. I'd like to buy you a new one of your choice, or have made.
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Apr 28, 2014 01:18
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tasty food posted:Your posts are often well thought out, informative, and enjoyable to read. I'd like to buy you a new one of your choice, or have made. Thank you! I assure you I can easily afford it. My problem has always been picking something. I am indecisive that way. I think I'd like to get a custom drawing of a fish with leprosy - like, maybe a fish all wrapped up with bandages. (A lot of people over the years have misread my username as Leperfish, so a leper fish av would amusingly encourage the mistake.)
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Apr 28, 2014 01:45
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Leperflesh posted:Thank you! I assure you I can easily afford it. My problem has always been picking something. I am indecisive that way. Then I think this thread should be devoted to suggesting avatars. 
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Apr 28, 2014 01:59
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That would be a pretty bad derail, but feel free to PM me if you have something cool you'd like to suggest. I like thar wizard guy there.
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Apr 28, 2014 02:03
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Bucnasti posted:Then I think this thread should be devoted to suggesting avatars. 
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Apr 28, 2014 04:24
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I've occasionally thought about grabbing the SCP logo as an avatar, but since I hardly ever post in the SCP thread anymore, it doesn't seem worthwhile.
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Apr 28, 2014 05:02
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Huh, I thought the SCP thread died in the farts of GBS 2.whatever
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Apr 28, 2014 07:36
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SCP should have died long before gibbis did its thing. There were a handful of really cool things buried in self insert fanfic poo poo. Even after they purged the worst articles and sperg-locked everything, there's still not much quality (tbh there never was)
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Apr 28, 2014 17:09
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