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Dezztroy posted:No Strv 122 means Scandinavia is the only coalition without high-end tanks. I hope there'll be enough new stuff in other categories that it won't matter. Gripen didn't enter service until '97 either, so I guess that's out too. I don't see why an FNC would have better stats in game than any other 5.56 rifle, or for that matter why it should.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:10
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Mortabis posted:I don't see why an FNC would have better stats in game than any other 5.56 rifle, or for that matter why it should. I'm not saying it would, but 15-man Elite units are not very common. 15-man Elites armed with good ARs even less so. When was the Ksp 90 introduced? Adding a Minimi to the Kustjägare would make them wonderful.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:19
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Just updated the big chart, now has much better artillery information. Yeah, REDFOR is kinda hosed when it comes to CB-artillery.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:22
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Hello Gamers Hello Sperglords Here I am, plz Don't ban me Admins How's it going? Pretty good. I've been playing single player Red Dragon.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:36
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Hello Gamers Introductions are usually reserved for the intro forum (FYAD) rather than specific games threads.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:43
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power crystals posted:Hey I've been waiting to see if there were any requests for additional formatting or different formats or whatever and so far I've heard nothing. You don't want me to design a website though, I have the artistic skills of a blind man with Parkinson's. Did you get that .dat export done at any point? To be honest it exports XML fine and the localisations fine and we haven't really encountered anything else we need particularly. Don't worry about the web stuff, that's kind of getting started slowly.
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Apr 24, 2014 15:50
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I've been here i just couldn't think of a better rhyme than admin while i was randomly mashing the keyboard to the tune of Hello Muddah.  quote:Yeah, REDFOR is kinda hosed when it comes to CB-artillery.
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Apr 24, 2014 16:41
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Man, napalm tanks having indirect fire is incredible. Fighting off FSJ '90s with Juckwidae supported by a TO-55 is the best thing ever. So many German pubbie tears. 
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Apr 24, 2014 17:00
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I've been here i just couldn't think of a better rhyme than admin while i was randomly mashing the keyboard to the tune of Hello Muddah. MSTA: HE/s/m^2: 5.7 He/m^2/volley: 8.9 Caesar: HE/s/m^2: 9.1 He/m^2/volley: 6.0 AS90: HE/s/m^2: 7.8 He/m^2/volley: 3.0 Paladin: HE/s/m^2: 7.7 He/m^2/volley: 10.0 The first number is basically a measure of DPS, taking into account of how concentrated the fire is. Higher values mean more damage in a tighter area essentially over the course of a second. The second number represents the total damage and its concentration done over a single burst. -An artillery piece with a high first value but a low second value, can fire lots of bursts continuously really quickly, but individual bursts don't do much (either because the shells are small or the shells are few in number). -Arty with low first numbers but high second numbers fire long barrages with many shells, generally not very accurate. -Arty with high both numbers can continuously fire very quickly, and each burst is worth a lot of concentrated damage. Now we can see why the Caesar is so drat good. If you give it continuous orders, it will massively outperform the damage output of MSTAs (almost anything actually), and because it's so much more accurate, it does almost as much concentrated damage as a msta over the the entire burst anyway if you don't continously fire it. The paladin is basically a MSTA with not-poo poo accuracy. Shanakin fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 17:02
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ArchangeI posted:The Strv 122 is the Leo 2, right? The Devs argue that Germany wouldn't have sold its MBT to other countries if the Cold War had gone on (or at least not as cheaply as they did OTL, which means it is a lot less attractive). It's basically a Leopard 2A5 with a Swedish-developed add-on armor package that significantly improves protection (semi-official sources say it improved protection by 50-100% at many angles when tested on the M1A2 and the Leclerc). First production tanks delivered in December 1996, thus out of timeframe. The Strv 121 on the other hand is just a surplus 2A4. Deliveries started in 1994, so it is within the timeframe but won't be added either, ostensibly because it doesn't fit the game's alt history. In reality I'm pretty sure they won't add them mostly because of ~faction flavor~. Scandinavia is supposed to be the infantry specialists on the BLUFOR side, I guess. You can never get enough Centurions though! Cardiac posted:So are we getting Strv2000 then? In order: no yes, command version too (recon and command doesn't have the 40mm IRL but probably will in game) yes/no no/probably No BMP-1 or MT-LB. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 17:06
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But Centurions suuuuuuck. And how come France gets not one, but two pieces of counter-battery arty? That stuff seems slim on the ground as it is without one nation hogging the bestest ones.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:12
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Davin Valkri posted:But Centurions suuuuuuck. I dunno. The AUF1 is a really nice howitzer but it's worse at counter battery than the MSTA HE/s/m^2: 4.9 He/m^2/volley: 6.2 edit: I should mention that the first number, HE/s/m^2 is currently being multiplied by 100 to make it more readable in my spreadsheet
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Apr 24, 2014 17:16
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So then I'm wondering what new tanks they'll actually give Scandinavia. I'm assuming Denmark and Norway will just get upgraded Leopards, but if Sweden only gets a single new Centurion then they'll be pretty hopeless tank wise. Maybe the cut Leo 1A6 for Germany can get somehow justified for Scandinavia? On a related note, the devs have posted a couple topics on the official forum detailing which units were just barely cut for each faction. Only W Ger and France so far, but still interesting.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:27
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The 15 point centurion has the highest FAV/$ ratio in the game, tying with the Roku Ichi at 0.6FAV/$. In terms of spamming EHP, there's really no substitute. For emphasis, a Centurion 5 is harder to kill than a Leopard 1A4. Shanakin posted:MSTA: AFAIK you want first high second low, since that makes scoot&shoot easier (which confirms my anecdotal experience, which is that the AS90 is nigh unkillable). I remember hearing (from mukip?) that [clus] MRLS are monsters at CB. Did this dissolve under further scrutiny or are things like MARS worth bringing just to crunch MSTAs and whatnot?
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Apr 24, 2014 17:29
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Scandinavia not getting any high-end tanks kinda stinks. I hope they'll be getting lots of different ATGM platforms, or they'll have problems fighting any kind of heavy armor. It'd be fun(ny) if they did add the Strv 2000 though. They added the Chimera, so why not? 
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Apr 24, 2014 17:36
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Doesn't the MSTA have a better armor profile then the T-55? Well maybe not front armor, but IIRC it's 5/3/2/2.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:36
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quote:Now we can see why the Caesar is so drat good. If you give it continuous orders, it will massively outperform the damage output of MSTAs (almost anything actually), and because it's so much more accurate, it does almost as much concentrated damage as a msta over the the entire burst anyway if you don't continously fire it. Concentrated, accurate damage is nice in some ways but if you catch someone with their pants down (didn't move their arty) the 2nd tier of accuracy is easily enough to wreck their poo poo. Lower accuracy is also ironically more likely to land hits on repositioning artillery or nearby support units - given that noone with half a brain puts arty directly adjacent to other units even in a crowded region. Furthermore it's hard to quantify how ATACMS/Smerch/etc. play into the CB analysis.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:37
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Dezztroy posted:Scandinavia not getting any high-end tanks kinda stinks. I hope they'll be getting lots of different ATGM platforms, or they'll have problems fighting any kind of heavy armor. I started appreciating Canada's armour a lot more when I realised that not only do they have a cheap-ish Strv103/Challenger hybrid, but it doesn't even take up a tank slot  Personally, I wish they had treated the Chimera as a rule instead of an exception and added in even more wacky but sorta believable prototypes.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:46
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:I started appreciating Canada's armour a lot more when I realised that not only do they have a cheap-ish Strv103/Challenger hybrid, but it doesn't even take up a tank slot The simplest evidence that pubbies are terrible is their hatred of NEVA and T90s. I wish they would just go straight-up fanfic style and give Norway Chimeras "as Canadian exports"(since Chimeras have been in universe for quite a long time by this point).
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Apr 24, 2014 17:52
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Shanakin posted:I don't mind them fudging numbers to make them look more real so much, it's just that they do it so inconsistently. It should appear to fire 4x faster than most of the best pieces but actually shoot 1/3rd as fast or whatever. If it were just a scaling factor based on the size of the projectile so that 35mm got an effective buff vs. 20mm to work around both being 1 HE, that'd be totally fine. But it's totally inconsistent instead.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:58
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Tulip posted:AFAIK you want first high second low, since that makes scoot&shoot easier (which confirms my anecdotal experience, which is that the AS90 is nigh unkillable). You really want the first one high. The second one being high is nice too but if the first is high enough the second isn't that important. Mazz posted:Doesn't the MSTA have a better armor profile then the T-55? Well maybe not front armor, but IIRC it's 5/3/2/2. Something like that, which does help reduce damage done by counter battery. On the other hand the Caesar can go 100 off road so it has a high armour value of sorts by virtue of not being able to be hit/stunlocked. TheDeadlyShoe posted:We're talking counter battery though, which isn't really about HE/S but about landing damaging hits. Granted, Caesars aim fast and are accurate - but they are also horribly fragile compared to the MSTA and are vulnerable to even light hits. Counter battery is all about DPS/area. Which is what I've got. It's all about having shells concentrated together in timing and accuracy. The Caesar and AS-90 are great because they can reliably get their first hits on target, and kill, really quickly. The MSTA is bad because it's much more likely to do glancing blows, if it hits at all, and gives plenty of time for the target to drive away, under barrage, meanwhile it wastes a bunch of ammo.
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Apr 24, 2014 17:59
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Shanakin posted:
You know what i'm hearing? I'm hearing counter-battery tournament. Or counter-battery league play.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:01
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Phrosphor posted:Prawned linked it earlier. But here is the recording of us playing against a 4 US player team stack with our silly helicopter gimmick. Trigger warning: Drunk nerds on mic. This was cosmically beautiful. I watched the entire thing and never stopped having fun.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:03
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Tulip posted:You know what i'm hearing? I'm hearing counter-battery tournament. Or counter-battery league play. There's a part of me that feels so dirt when I start drawing up DPS spreadsheets and stuff
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Apr 24, 2014 18:14
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They could add the Strv 103D if they want to keep the "flavour", but the upgrade would probably be slim (basically ACC and maybe Stab and some engine tweak (speed/autonomy)) and not make it compete in anything but $80-100 league at best (the 103C seems a wee bit overpriced at 95). Hordes of CV90s in the VHC tab?
Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 18:17
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Furthermore it's hard to quantify how ATACMS/Smerch/etc. play into the CB analysis. Actually, I've tried it out a bunch and it's not hard to quantify at all - they completely rule at it. Unlike 203mm tube artillery, cluster rocket artillery can have shots on target under 45s (I believe 155mm artillery also takes about that long as well). Unlike 155mm artillery, cluster rocket artillery is likely to land damaging shots anywhere in it's dispersion radius within the span of a few seconds after the first hit, giving almost no time to respond -- and what it doesn't kill it will definitely panic. At maximum vet, you can reliably wipe out entire artillery clusters for less than half the cost, and with a weapon that is hard to counter-battery itself (since it launches its payload in a short burst and can be quickly moved before his guns can even train on your location, assuming he is even able to spot the firing position). High-vet cluster artillery is the basically the perfect counter-battery weapon, unless your enemy moves his artillery up to the mid-field where it will possibly be too close for rocket artillery fire due to being at minimum range. If you have the MLRS or Smerch available, you owe it to yourself to bring it (preferably at max-vet). My US deck has 1xMLRS and 2xPaladins, and it covers pretty much anything I could possibly need from it.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:23
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E: ^^^^ Awesome, thanks! I knew it was somebody whose opinion i trusted.Shanakin posted:There's a part of me that feels so dirt when I start drawing up DPS spreadsheets and stuff I mean i loving love making spreedsheets and poo poo. But i think we're running into a problem where it's hard to tell what aspects of an artillery are actually relevant for CB, which demands empirical study of how people CB. Like one thing we're kind of talking about qualitatively but not quantitatively is Time-To-Target. Aim Time is pretty much the only thing that can reduce T3 other than moving artillery up to the front/playing smaller maps, but it's important that we actually compare it. Especially since it's necessary in order to consider the important aspect of foiling CB, which is Exposure: the window between when the first shell launches and when the piece has been able to post-barrage move out of the likely dispersal of CB fire. Tulip fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 18:25
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STRF 9040B thanks. Also wasn't there an export version with a 120mm smooth bore on it? That could be fun in the VHC section, run alongside the IKV-91
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Apr 24, 2014 18:26
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TheFluff posted:It's basically a Leopard 2A5 with a Swedish-developed add-on armor package that significantly improves protection (semi-official sources say it improved protection by 50-100% at many angles when tested on the M1A2 and the Leclerc). First production tanks delivered in December 1996, thus out of timeframe. Let's not pretend the timeline or "OOTF" are real things. Pimpmust posted:They could add the Strv 103D if they want to keep the "flavour", but the upgrade would probably be slim (basically ACC and maybe Stab and some engine tweak (speed/autonomy)) and not make it compete in anything but $80-100 league at best (the 103C seems a wee bit overpriced at 95). I think if Eugen won't add the Strv 121/122 it should take the Strv103D and give it a bigass addon armor package, like MEXAS or something so you get something with AV17 even if that's not truly "realistic." Mortabis fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 18:27
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Shanakin posted:STRF 9040B thanks. Also wasn't there an export version with a 120mm smooth bore on it? That could be fun in the VHC section, run alongside the IKV-91 CV90105: Light tank equipped with 105 mm rifled tank gun/turret. Designed by Hägglunds (BAE Systems) and GIAT (Nexter). CV90120-T: Light tank equipped with tank turret and smoothbore 120 mm gun. (RUAG 120 mm Compact Tank Gun) This one would have been nice: Stridsfordon 9040/56: Prototype version of the CV 9040 equipped with the Bofors RB56 anti-tank missile. Issues with the sight alignment were unsolved and no units ordered Dun need no Leopards were we are going
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Apr 24, 2014 18:29
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Tulip posted:E: ^^^^ Awesome, thanks! I knew it was somebody whose opinion i trusted. That's true. Technically those values are kind of included in those numbers but I do agree that the aim time, and perhaps slightly more important, the time for the follow up shot, is pretty drat important. edit: It doesn't really answer your question but here's an updated list with more info CAESAR HE/s/m^2: 0.091 He/m^2/volley: 6.02 Aim time: 6s Shot Interval: 6s Total volley time: 66s Shots fired: 6 shells AS-90 HE/s/m^2: 0.072 He/m^2/volley: 3.01 Aim time: 3s Shot Interval: 6s Total volley time: 42s Shots fired: 3 shells M109A6 Paladin HE/s/m^2: 0.077 He/m^2/volley: 10.03 Aim time: 10s Shot Interval: 10s Total volley time: 130s Shots fired: 10 shells MSTA-S HE/s/m^2: 0.057 He/m^2/volley: 8.9 Aim time: 7.5s Shot Interval: 7.5 Total volley time: 157.5s Shots fired: 20 shells AMX AuF1 HE/s/m^2: 0.049 He/m^2/volley: 6.24 Aim time: 15s Shot Interval: 7.5s Total volley time: 127.5s Shots fired: 14 shells Shanakin fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 18:30
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Shanakin posted:That's true. Technically those values are kind of included in those numbers but I do agree that the aim time, and perhaps slightly more important, the time for the follow up shot, is pretty drat important. That's some incredibly interesting information. Part of what needs to be kept in mind is what your opponent is using for CB. If your opponent is using MSTAs it's one thing, but the total T3 for a Smerch is about 30s (at 12k, which is near min range, so longer for longer ranges), which means that you're pretty dangerously exposed using nearly any primary artillery if your opponent has Smerches.
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Apr 24, 2014 18:58
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Kinda funny how when we talk about adding "Scandinavian" units most of the units that we come up with are pretty much "Swedish". Do Norway and Denmark seriously have nothing good to add in this era? If Sweden stole Norway's F-16 bombers and NOAH AA launchers could they stand on their own as "Super Sweden" or something?
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Apr 24, 2014 19:05
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Where exactly should I be placing my recon vehicles?
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Apr 24, 2014 19:07
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This poo poo is priceless: Davin Valkri posted:But Centurions suuuuuuck. Should be mentioned that France pays for it in a way in that it otherwise only has complete garbage tubes and the weakest mortars in the game. You want arty tubes as France, it's 120 points per or utter junk.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:17
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Davin Valkri posted:Kinda funny how when we talk about adding "Scandinavian" units most of the units that we come up with are pretty much "Swedish". Do Norway and Denmark seriously have nothing good to add in this era? If Sweden stole Norway's F-16 bombers and NOAH AA launchers could they stand on their own as "Super Sweden" or something? You have essentially described every Scandinavian deck both pre and post DLC. +/- a couple TOW-2s.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:18
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General Battuta posted:This was cosmically beautiful. I watched the entire thing and never stopped having fun. My favourite parts are my Mi-8s running out of fuel and sitting on the ground for most of the game, and the guy saying "we'll win in 23 minutes anyway" just before we find the last CV.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:19
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Magni posted:Should be mentioned that France pays for it in a way in that it otherwise only has complete garbage tubes and the weakest mortars in the game. You want arty tubes as France, it's 120 points per or utter junk. This is true for every artillery piece though nation though :/ Phrosphor posted:Prawned linked it earlier. But here is the recording of us playing against a 4 US player team stack with our silly helicopter gimmick. Trigger warning: Drunk nerds on mic. Just got around to watching this. Wonderful. Piece of advice though, deploy your helicopters in single units, not pairs and try to keep them nice and spread out. The splash damage from missiles will hit other helicopters nearby them, especially when they're paired up.
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Apr 24, 2014 19:20
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Shanakin posted:Just got around to watching this. Wonderful. Piece of advice though, deploy your helicopters in single units, not pairs and try to keep them nice and spread out. The splash damage from missiles will hit other helicopters nearby them, especially when they're paired up. (yet another thing Eugen should abolish if they want to make the game more approachable for new people)
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Apr 24, 2014 19:24
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Also, one thing I learned in ranked was that the scariest helo rushes are the type that dump a bunch of ATGM infantry/light infantry as they reach the spawn zone. People panic-flood in a bunch of AA, and it all dies driving down the road to the zone. This gets rid of that attrition problem of losing all your helos to spawned counters before you safely clear the zone. If you can arm transports, like the Mi-8s, dropping off a bunch of Fagots/Metys team at your exit point is a real good way to gently caress a spawn over completely. Bonus points if you use something like Lynx though, as they unload fast as hell and travel 300 km/h. Now that I think about it, the new SAS and MILAN 2s in AH.7 would make this rush pretty drat brutal. Mazz fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 24, 2014 |
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Apr 24, 2014 19:34
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