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Man, it's hilarious that the M60 is worse than BARs and squad automatic weapon versions of FALs.Insert name here posted:Good thing the KSP m/58 isn't the weapon that's he's talking about then! umm... Mortabis posted:The fact that a BAR in a Swedish rechambering is one of the best machine guns in the game is downright hilarious. It was a bad weapon in 1939. Mortabis posted:in a Swedish rechambering TheFluff posted:The Swedish reservists have Kg m/37 which is indeed a license-produced BAR with some modifications (see link, it's in English). Ksp m/58 is a FN MAG chambered for 6.5×55mm (the Swedish Mauser caliber) and IIRC it's only used by the Kustjägare. Ksp m/58B is the same weapon but rechambered for 7.62mm NATO, and it's used by everyone else.
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Apr 25, 2014 03:01
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Shanakin posted:Cool. Thanks, that should be handy. Overnight MadMat messaged me on steam:"since you've became the new Myth Buster here, could you apply your science to the American M60. The RoF display is actually just a display, I'm pretty sure 99% of the people calling it the worst MG are only checking that stat and not using it ingame." I just linked him the first picture and said "it is the worst though :V" 
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Apr 25, 2014 03:01
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Xerxes17 posted:Overnight MadMat messaged me on steam:"since you've became the new Myth Buster here, could you apply your science to the American M60. The RoF display is actually just a display, I'm pretty sure 99% of the people calling it the worst MG are only checking that stat and not using it ingame." Oh dear. Shouldn't the devs know how their system works? Or is MadMat not directly involved with the unit programming side of things?
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Apr 25, 2014 03:13
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He's not :P IMO, make a baseline Assault Rifle, Battle Rifle, SMG, LMG, MMG, and assign them stats. The only variable from that point on from that base statline should be the unit carrying's classification, which could give a bonus to that weapons' accuracy. Modelling each weapon just leads to a loving mess. Gonna ask Eugen if its too late for work on an Ultra Patch yet :P Dandywalken fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 03:14
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xthetenth posted:Man, it's hilarious that the M60 is worse than BARs and squad automatic weapon versions of FALs.  But yeah M60s and PKMs being literally the worst MGs in the game is pretty  and  in equal measures.
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Apr 25, 2014 03:23
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Yeah my bad about the BAR, although it is shockingly good all things considered. I was thinking of it in terms of "all CQC MGs > all not-CQC MGs."Dandywalken posted:He's not :P This is obviously how it should be done. Just make all CQC MGs the same and all not-CQC MGs the same. VVVV Yes and the actual squad-level machine gun was the M249 much earlier.
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Apr 25, 2014 03:24
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How come Riflemen '90s don't use the M240? I thought the Army switched over to those?
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Apr 25, 2014 03:25
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The French mgs are pretty bad. Are Commandos Marine really worth 40 points? They're the most expensive SF squad I think and while they're a 15 man squad they don't have an 875m rpg like Komandosi. I hope their AR and squad size make up for the middling MG and short (but pretty good) RPG. On a phone right now, can anyone check? Dang that chart is handy. And no Commando Marine don't deserve to be the most expensive SF they're very much the middle of the pack in HE and have an AT weapon that is only OK. Nothing compared to an RPG 16 or PZF 3000. I guess they're slightly more survivable against wet farts or whatever kills only part of an infantry squad Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 03:34
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 AR looks pretty average for an elite squad. LRAC has good accuracy but mediocre AP and range; the PzF 3 is better in every way. We know about the AA-52. So, no, probably not worth 40 points, especially not in a deck where you can get FSJs.
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Apr 25, 2014 03:40
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What's the rationale for the G11 having perfect accuracy on the move? Is it on a steady cam harness like in Aliens?
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Apr 25, 2014 03:45
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Insert name here posted:Mortabis posted that the BAR is one of the best MGs in the game (which it isn't), Dezztroy posted that it isn't even in the top half (cause it's not), and then you responded with where the KSP m/58s landed on the list, which isn't relevant because they aren't BARs. I figured that the whole rechambering thing made them just as much the right ones, and they're still old and mediocre guns.
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Apr 25, 2014 03:53
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I think the Ksp 58/58B are mixed up either in the chart or in the game. Back in ALB beta they were originally the same weapon, but then the Kustjägare got the 6.5mm variant with CQC for flavor reasons, and the regular 7.62mm version was renamed Ksp 58B. The Hemvärnsmän's Kg m/37 being CQC and able to fire on the move like a special forces weapon is hilarious though. Get off my lawn Delta Force whippersnappers with your newfangled plastic guns, here come the old grumpy men with some REAL weapons (19th century Mausers complete with bayonets + pre-WW2 machine guns).
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Apr 25, 2014 04:05
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Well I'd hardly call the FN MAG mediocre and lovely; everyone still uses the drat thing for a reason (the US version is the M240 if that puts things into perspective). Does it even count as a rechambering if the original gun uses 7.62 NATO as standard? I mean I guess the original Swede version was in a different calibre and then they moved it back to 7.62 NATO so I guess it's technically rechambered.Arglebargle III posted:What's the rationale for the G11 having perfect accuracy on the move? Is it on a steady cam harness like in Aliens?
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Apr 25, 2014 04:05
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I've made an attempt at dropping a truth bomb: http://www.wargame-ee.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=155&t=44307&p=550210#p550210
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Apr 25, 2014 04:09
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I might have missed it posted earlier in the thread, but apparently MadMat has being doing some posts about several units that were considered to be added when they were making Red Dragon, but discarded for reasons: http://www.wargame-ee.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=155&t=44357 He's got France, West Germany and USA done so far.
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Apr 25, 2014 04:23
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poo poo, France missed out on a modern IFV family with bushmaster cannons or tank destroyer guns and likely HOT 2/3 access, since they are not adding the HOT 2 to the VAB Mephisto. They may already have units in those roles but they're very long in the tooth for RD's time frame. The AMX-13 or AMX-10P MILAN are both sort of joke/gimmick units because of their outdated weapons. French National could have really used those new IFVs. Also AMX-30 Roland 3 with 6 missile tubes gently caress yeah! Pretty obvious why they didn't put that in, although it would have been decently fair at 100 points probably.
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Apr 25, 2014 04:46
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LOSAT would have been neat, with its reversed distance/damage rule for a KE weapon. And Marder 2 should have been in, gently caress every naysayer 
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Apr 25, 2014 04:50
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Dandywalken posted:LOSAT would have been neat, with its reversed distance/damage rule for a KE weapon.  "
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Apr 25, 2014 04:55
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They decided not to give the US a Patriot because "we don't want to do an I-Hawk again and motorize something that wasn't" and decided not to give US a Roland because "they already have the I-Hawk."  :eugen:
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Apr 25, 2014 04:58
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Insert name here posted:I don't particularly care for the LOSAT itself but I thought it was pretty funny that the reason they didn't add it was "well we couldn't figure out how to add it properly but then we went and did the Starstreak and realised it had the same problem so we gave it a shot and it turned out ok but we didn't go back and do the LOSAT because Real answer is the US absolutely doesn't need another god tier ATGM mounted on a light vehicle. US have TOW 2s and Hellfires coming out the rear end already. UK on the other hand had an ancient MCLOS system and a Milan 1 jeep. The I-Hawk and Chap on the other hand are very much not Rolands.
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Apr 25, 2014 05:03
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Arglebargle III posted:Real answer is the US absolutely doesn't need another god tier ATGM mounted on a light vehicle. US have TOW 2s and Hellfires coming out the rear end already. UK on the other hand had an ancient MCLOS system and a Milan 1 jeep. Or ADATS for that matter
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Apr 25, 2014 05:17
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Insert name here posted:
Stealin this. Also why does 60% stability appear as "less good" than 60% accuracy? Isn't no accuracy loss on moving the best you can hope for?
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Apr 25, 2014 05:54
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Dandywalken posted:LOSAT would have been neat, with its reversed distance/damage rule for a KE weapon. Wait is this how Starstreak works? Because that 12 HEAT AP always looked kinda anemic.
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Apr 25, 2014 06:00
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I hope not tbh, because 12 HEAT IS drat anemic! I've honest to god never played a Brit deck that had it, because I am very bad you see. I'd want 24 AP or so or fuckit.
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Apr 25, 2014 06:02
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLXhPoxytsM Jesus christ this French guy is badass/stupid. Also the Mirage III is a really pretty aircraft. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEe3xfWfkG8 Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 06:02
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After googling a bit I can't figure out what the I.MG3 is supposed to be. All the gun nerds seem to think the MG3 is great but an awkward clumsy weapon best suited for vehicle or tripod use. quote:but showing how bad the M60/PKM would still suck at 770 meters might help your case even more. Based on my trials with the MG3, base accuracy would only go up about 7-8% by 770m. They might still curve to high accuracy at medium range faster than short range MGs. quote:[Centurions are] excellent defensive chaff even if they're bad offensive chaff. My offensive chaff when I can get them is more likely to be stuff like the French wheel tanks and Ferret Entacs (although if I can get away with it that'll usually be most of my attack). Then again one of my most common decks is a blufor motorized deck where basically all my tanks are what would be called chaff in other decks, so I have room for a card of purely defensive chaff that's there so I can make it slower to push into me and give my infantry time to move and/or give me time to concentrate the rolly tanks to counterpush and screen them when they get there. yeah defensive roles are underappreciated. I tend to prefer vehicle tab stuff like recoilless rifle m113s for it but YMMV naturally. I believe someone mentioned using recon as combat units. The AMX-13 recon I mentioned is purely fantastic for this. It's wonderful to have 6-8 Good Optics units rolling at the front of an attack. I love the Chinese recon tank too but I never feel I have enough of them to use them outside the recon/sniper role. It's probably undercosted too tbh. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 06:13
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So is anyone good with differential equations? Shan would like to talk to you about area calculations for HE splash. Basically, someone has reported that up to 50% of a the radius it's full damage, then from that point to the edge it's a linear drop off to zero. So getting the HE/area in the first part is easy, but not so for the 2nd.
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Apr 25, 2014 06:15
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Dandywalken posted:I hope not tbh, because 12 HEAT IS drat anemic! I think that the idea is that it doesn't matter if it's a little anemic since it's also anti-aircraft so you're in principle covered against most threats with just one launcher.
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Apr 25, 2014 06:26
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Xerxes17 posted:So is anyone good with differential equations? Shan would like to talk to you about area calculations for HE splash. Basically, someone has reported that up to 50% of a the radius it's full damage, then from that point to the edge it's a linear drop off to zero. So getting the HE/area in the first part is easy, but not so for the 2nd. It's been ~3 years since I took that class and I've never used it since but I might be able to help this weekend.
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Apr 25, 2014 06:29
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Xerxes17 posted:So is anyone good with differential equations? Shan would like to talk to you about area calculations for HE splash. Basically, someone has reported that up to 50% of a the radius it's full damage, then from that point to the edge it's a linear drop off to zero. So getting the HE/area in the first part is easy, but not so for the 2nd. http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/emt725/Frustum/Frustum.cone.html You can treat the damage within the area as a third dimension, thereby reducing the problem to finding the volume of the equivalent solid. In this case the solid you're looking for is the frustrum of a circular cone.
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Apr 25, 2014 06:30
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:After googling a bit I can't figure out what the I.MG3 is supposed to be. All the gun nerds seem to think the MG3 is great but an awkward clumsy weapon best suited for vehicle or tripod use.  Xerxes17 posted:So is anyone good with differential equations? Shan would like to talk to you about area calculations for HE splash. Basically, someone has reported that up to 50% of a the radius it's full damage, then from that point to the edge it's a linear drop off to zero. So getting the HE/area in the first part is easy, but not so for the 2nd. E: Unless I missed something huge and important, which happens all the time Insert name here fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 06:45
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Yes you and 1337JiveTurkey are right, it's just a cone. It's still some multivariable calculus but not any complicated diffie. In fact you can simplify it to single-variable integrals.
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Apr 25, 2014 06:51
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I was tired last night and must've misremembered what Shan said as to why he was all "gently caress that" at the time v v
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Apr 25, 2014 06:53
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Davin Valkri posted:By the way, Shanakin, since I'm sure this would come up if you brought your data to the forums and stuff now, is the CtH/distance relationship such that you can tell the DPS for all the machine guns at 980, 875, and 770 meters? I mean, it's still good right now, but showing how bad the M60/PKM would still suck at 770 meters might help your case even more. We don't actually have an equation for it so I can't tell you exactly, but baseed on deadlyshoe's (I think?) table it should be no more than a few % difference. edit: looks like I got beat to this actually. Xerxes17 posted:Overnight MadMat messaged me on steam:"since you've became the new Myth Buster here, could you apply your science to the American M60. The RoF display is actually just a display, I'm pretty sure 99% of the people calling it the worst MG are only checking that stat and not using it ingame." Clearly it was well timed that I stayed up all night compiling that. Arglebargle III posted:The French mgs are pretty bad. Are Commandos Marine really worth 40 points? They're the most expensive SF squad I think and while they're a 15 man squad they don't have an 875m rpg like Komandosi. I hope their AR and squad size make up for the middling MG and short (but pretty good) RPG. On a phone right now, can anyone check? Xerxes17 posted:So is anyone good with differential equations? Shan would like to talk to you about area calculations for HE splash. Basically, someone has reported that up to 50% of a the radius it's full damage, then from that point to the edge it's a linear drop off to zero. So getting the HE/area in the first part is easy, but not so for the 2nd. I already know how to do this, I just need to integrate the volume under the curve but was feeling pretty about doing it last night.1337JiveTurkey posted:http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/emt725/Frustum/Frustum.cone.html Exactly my plan. Although I was being stupid at the time and thinking I'd have to integrate the volume of a solid of revolution. This is a much nicer way of doing it. Shanakin fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 07:20
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Dandywalken posted:And Marder 2 should have been in, gently caress every naysayer MadMat is saying it lacks uniqueness! It's an IFV with a tank's armor. A more anti-tank focused BMPT that also carries infantry. If that's not unique I don't know what is.
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Apr 25, 2014 07:33
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I think a hot war would have the effect of a lot of prototypes being rushed out of the lab to actual battle so I personally don't mind it. I still where you're coming from though.
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Apr 25, 2014 09:46
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Elukka posted:If that's not unique I don't know what is. AC-130H? BLU-82? AGM-136 Tacit Rainbow? CRRC? M60 AVLB? Airdrops and parachute deployment of special forces? PACV or LCAC? Ekranoplanes? Starstreak MANPADS? Otomatic? (Who cares if nobody actually bought one. It's a 76 mm autocannon strapped on a tank.) Copperhead rounds?
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Apr 25, 2014 10:25
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quote:[EUG]Dev: that's an interesting chart  Edit: I also added napalm/HE/cluster bombs to my chart. Xerxes17 fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 10:34
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oh lawd They really don't know what they're doing when it comes to balance. They need a balance guy. :|
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Apr 25, 2014 10:34
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:oh lawd They have three. Panzer who we know nothing about aside from the fact his word is law because he is The Boss. MadMat who goes by "the feels" and FLX who tries for a more numbers based approach but is often overruled by the other two. Xerxes17 fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 10:44
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