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Just so we're clear, it's NOT over, right? I mean, the Feds are eventually going to get him, right?
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Apr 25, 2014 17:46
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Alter Ego posted:Just so we're clear, it's NOT over, right? I mean, the Feds are eventually going to get him, right? That seems to be the unspoken but widely presumed consensus, yes. The BLM backed off solely as they didn't want another Waco, which the Angry White Brigade seemed overeager for, and in no way capitulated to Bundy either the right to continue what he's been doing nor waved the massive amount of money he owes in ignored land use fees.
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Apr 25, 2014 17:49
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zoux posted:Hate the racism not the racist, I always say. Personally I hate the racist, too. Enough people have grown out of being "from a different time," it's a cop-out to excuse whatever racist piece of poo poo is in question. I think it's because I somewhat sympathize with the "they don't understand rational thought" mindset. Not necessarily in the sense that you need to literally beat the racism out of the racist, but that anyone capable of departing racist thought on their own through reason and empathy has done so. What's left requires effort beyond just hoping and praying. The remainders just stay a problem until they're shamed or beaten (in the court, in the market, and on the ballot) and made an example. They may not confront their evils but beating them publicly (same clarification as above) is close enough.
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Apr 25, 2014 17:50
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Alter Ego posted:Just so we're clear, it's NOT over, right? I mean, the Feds are eventually going to get him, right? It's my belief that Obama is going to chicken out on this.
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Apr 25, 2014 17:52
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I don't actually hate anyone 
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Apr 25, 2014 17:53
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zoux posted:My grandfather grew up in pre WWII Louisiana and my dad grew up in immediately post-Jim Crow Mississippi so I have pretty first hand experience about how otherwise good people can hold pretty abhorrent views on race. Ya my exposure to some of the worst of the South via the army has really taught me this, and so the hyperbolic caricatures (see: the gunchat a few pages back) that get thrown around this forum I find just as offensively stupid as when I get some stupid image macros about liberals popping up on my Facebook feed from old army buddies. People are people, it used to be so easy when I lived in the northeast my whole life to just hate the bigots as the "other", but for the most part they're otherwise good people who think they're doing the right thing but whose judgement is clouded by ignorance. I used to get real mad, still do at some special brands of shitheel like Bundy, but now for the most part is just makes me sad. I've had some success at picking away at ignorance I've encountered, but its hard because human beings are so quick to label something antithetical to their world view as some sort of malevolent other and shut down without applying critical thinking that you have to gently pick away at the edges in ways they can relate if you want them to actually internalize and think about what you have to say.
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Apr 25, 2014 17:55
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Well, "hating the racism" is always the first step, just because if you go on and on about how someone is racist they can just say "No I'm not, you don't know what's going on inside my head!" and they're right, you don't. That's why you need to focus on the documentable things, i.e. their words and actions.
Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 17:55
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Alter Ego posted:Just so we're clear, it's NOT over, right? I mean, the Feds are eventually going to get him, right? They are going through the courts to get leins and asset freezes now. Personally I want them to sell the land to a black guy for $3.50 and that guy then cranks the grazing fees up to the stratosphere. Free Market, Fools!
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Apr 25, 2014 17:56
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Wolfsheim posted:I'm glad Bundy is making the right look as terrible as it is, but a part of me just wants events to fast forward to the point where the feds have seized his assets. Apparently when they confiscated his cattle temporarily they killed a few (the feds claim it was due to the animals being dangerous but whatever). So now you have this weird situation where right wing websites are citing PETA who issued a statement that the government shouldn't be doing that. Of course they don't link the entire statement that the rancher shouldn't be raising animals for slaughter either but it's still really a bizarre mix.
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Apr 25, 2014 17:57
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Jarmak posted:Ya my exposure to some of the worst of the South via the army has really taught me this, and so the hyperbolic caricatures (see: the gunchat a few pages back) that get thrown around this forum I find just as offensively stupid as when I get some stupid image macros about liberals popping up on my Facebook feed from old army buddies. Basically I feel like I was lucky to be born with the ability to apply critical thinking skills to my world view, this is a privilege that I have and I could've just as easily been born without those skills, or without the opportunities to develop those skills through a strong education and supportive parents so I should be compassionate and show patience and understanding to people.
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Apr 25, 2014 17:59
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SedanChair posted:It's my belief that Obama is going to chicken out on this. My assumption is that until they decided they needed the land for something, they'd just wait until the old man kicks off and then confiscate the estate.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:03
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Stultus Maximus posted:My assumption is that until they decided they needed the land for something, they'd just wait until the old man kicks off and then confiscate the estate.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:03
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Fried Chicken posted:They are going through the courts to get leins and asset freezes now. 40 acres and a jackass
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Apr 25, 2014 18:07
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The irony of it all is that the Spanish (insert weeping Juan Carlos here) are racist as hell and hate Mexicans.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:08
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W/r/t the discussion of whether to call someone "racist" or "a racist": The strategy I've seen recommended which I like best is to do neither, but to point out that something they said was racist. That's less likely to put them in full-out kneejerk defensive mode and more likely to make them actually reconsider an idea they've expressed, or defend it on its own merits, instead of pointing out that they have black friends. e: To put it more plainly, hate the racism not the racist. Unless you just like shouting matches. Then go nuts I guess.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:10
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loquacius posted:W/r/t the discussion of whether to call someone "racist" or "a racist": The strategy I've seen recommended which I like best is to do neither, but to point out that something they said was racist. That's less likely to put them in full-out kneejerk defensive mode and more likely to make them actually reconsider an idea they've expressed, or defend it on its own merits, instead of pointing out that they have black friends. Yeah that's been played out, I think. It's far better to antagonize them, let them flame out and go full racist, then have bystanders make the choice whether they want to be associated with them.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:28
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loquacius posted:W/r/t the discussion of whether to call someone "racist" or "a racist": The strategy I've seen recommended which I like best is to do neither, but to point out that something they said was racist. That's less likely to put them in full-out kneejerk defensive mode and more likely to make them actually reconsider an idea they've expressed, or defend it on its own merits, instead of pointing out that they have black friends. gently caress even bringing up racism, point out why what they're saying is wrong
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Apr 25, 2014 18:47
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I'd like to think that being racist is its own punishment in terms of being stink-eyed in public, losing out on potential friends and such, but I guess in some places it isn't.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:50
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While pendantic, I think it can be a useful distinction in some cases. For example, I grew up in a racist society, so I occasionally have unbidden racist thoughts. I know those thoughts are wrong and I do my best to dismiss them. I do not consider myself a racist, although I recognize that occasionally I have racist thoughts. Bundy, on the other hand, is a racist. I don't have a problem calling him that. He grew up in a racist society and embraces those values. That makes him a racist.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:54
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Samurai Sanders posted:I'd like to think that being racist is its own punishment in terms of being stink-eyed in public, losing out on potential friends and such, but I guess in Fixed that for you, Did you know that outside of the US and maybe Canada people are openly and flagrantly racist without any sort of social sanction? As an American living in Europe it always amuses me when the young liberals idealize this place without realizing that the reason you never hear about racism in Europe isn't because Europe doesn't have racism, its that no one seems to care about it here. I haven't spent that much time in Germany/England/France, but in southern and eastern Europe people will say horrendously racist things that would be shocking to hear in the deep south as casually as they comment on the weather.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:57
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Shbobdb posted:While pendantic, I think it can be a useful distinction in some cases. For example, I grew up in a racist society, so I occasionally have unbidden racist thoughts. I know those thoughts are wrong and I do my best to dismiss them. I do not consider myself a racist, although I recognize that occasionally I have racist thoughts. Bundy, on the other hand, is a racist. I don't have a problem calling him that. He grew up in a racist society and embraces those values. That makes him a racist. Yes that's fair. If you're working on it, you have racist thoughts and do racist things. If you're actively subscribing to racist ideology, you're a racist. But there's no meaningful distinction between "you're racist" and "you're a racist." e: VVV this guy's talking about discussions with people speaking in good faith, obviously
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Apr 25, 2014 19:00
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With regard to the racist/racism conversation, it might have been poster before but take a look at this Jay Smooth video: How To Tell Someone They Sound Racist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc I like it. Maybe it's not the solution to every discussion about race but it gets to some important distinctions.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:00
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Jarmak posted:Fixed that for you, However, intentional or not I can't tell, but Japanese TV is making a big push to portray blacks as not being scary. Goofy yes, but not scary.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:01
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Literally every society since they were invented was to some degree racist and it's really only in the last 100 years or so when anyone ever thought "hey maybe bigotry isn't cool".
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Apr 25, 2014 19:02
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Shbobdb posted:While pendantic, I think it can be a useful distinction in some cases. For example, I grew up in a racist society, so I occasionally have unbidden racist thoughts. I know those thoughts are wrong and I do my best to dismiss them. I do not consider myself a racist, although I recognize that occasionally I have racist thoughts. Bundy, on the other hand, is a racist. I don't have a problem calling him that. He grew up in a racist society and embraces those values. That makes him a racist. I liked John Scalzi's (he's a scifi writer that I like who's pretty socially conscious and I like his blog) take on what being sexist vs being a sexist means in this blog post. (It translates well to race) Basic idea is that we all have some racism and sexism built in to us - we have grown up in racist, sexist societies and inevitably some of it seeps in before we're old enough to properly steel ourselves against it. Everyone is sexist and racist to some degree, but people do not become a racist or a sexist until they consciously embrace their prejudice. E: This Jay Smooth video is awesome. This dude is awesome. Magres fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 19:05
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zoux posted:Literally every society since they were invented was to some degree racist and it's really only in the last 100 years or so when anyone ever thought "hey maybe bigotry isn't cool". Well my point is that despite common perceptions for the most part the US and a handful of others are the only ones that reached "hey maybe that ain't cool stage" I think it mostly has to do with the non-homogeneous nature of North America and the late Imperial powers causing racism to lead to a lot of friction and therefore gotten attention as a society
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Apr 25, 2014 19:07
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Great_Gerbil posted:I just want to pop in here and point out that there's a very specific language that needs to be stamped out regarding American race and gender relations.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:12
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pangstrom posted:Where does this notion come from? It smacks of a college classroom and/or critical theory but I've never heard it. I think you just answered your own question there.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:13
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Magres posted:I liked John Scalzi's (he's a scifi writer that I like who's pretty socially conscious and I like his blog) take on what being sexist vs being a sexist means in this blog post. (It translates well to race) Scalzi's one of my favorite people and that post is the latest where he knocks it out of the park. He's been writing about this stuff on his blog and in columns for a long time and in a very clear and understandable way. Definitely worth reading.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:14
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Alter Ego posted:Just so we're clear, it's NOT over, right? I mean, the Feds are eventually going to get him, right? Why can't they just lien his bank accounts/tax refunds?
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Apr 25, 2014 19:14
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Samurai Sanders posted:Yeah, Japan too, since they often have very limited experience with non-Japanese people in general and get all images of other kinds of people from movies and stuff. Really, Japanese people have really watched way too much US-produced TV/movies, and as a result have really weird preconceptions of people of different races, usually based completely on the stereotypes typically portrayed on our TV/movies, which actually also translates over to what they think our society is like as well. They may be racist, but it is more of a kind of weird racism based on extreme-but-not-necessarily-negative stereotypes, rather than the hugely negative racism that we have in the US. Or at least that was my experience living over there and working with a lot of people from other countries.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:15
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Duckgate, best gate:quote:It's like House of Cards but the opposite of sexy, and could fuel an entire season of Veep. It's "wanton" that makes it art. Read the rest here.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:41
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ufarn posted:Duckgate, best gate: This is absolutely amazing.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:53
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zoux posted:I think you just answered your own question there. Failing that: mandatory fuzzing of things in trivial ways is dumb and my motives for pointing that out are the same as the purported motives of a person who claims that that distinction is important.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:57
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zoux posted:Literally every society since they were invented was to some degree racist and it's really only in the last 100 years or so when anyone ever thought "hey maybe bigotry isn't cool". Is it accurate to say that every society ever has been racist? Lots of societies have been xenophobic, and a fair few have had extreme biases against other groups, but from what I've read and been taught, the kind of ingrained, structural racism that we deal with today is a result of a very specific path of development tied to Western modernity ideas of constructing nation-states around racial and/or ethnic identities which requires juxtaposing other racial and/or ethnic groups as being antithetical or somehow otherwise inherently different (see Andrea Smith's the Three Pillars of White Supremacy). Not saying that every society before the peace of Westphalia was dancing in a circle singing Kumbaya, but there's plenty of evidence that shows many ancient societies were racially and/or ethnically diverse or at the very least, not trying to kill other people solely based on being a different color than them. I'd say in the last 100 years we've seen just how bad the whole idea of ethnic and/or racial nationality can get (see: Armenian genocide, the Holocaust, various genocides in African nations, etc) but now the trouble is that we're dealing with issues of transitioning from modernity to post modernity as far as nation-states, societies, and governance are concerned, but we haven't dealt with the problems created by the last round of significant pivotal development as far as human civilization goes. Deconstructing the primacy of white supremacy that acts as superstructure for many modern societies is going to be a problem, especially considering that people don't even want to admit it exists (see: Sotomayors most recent dissent) and even when you have bigots like Bundy running their mouth, the problem is reduced down to "oh this guy is just a crazy racist outlier" instead of "look what crazy poo poo our society encourages", which is by far the bigger problem.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:08
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ufarn posted:Duckgate, best gate: The first article on this has the most amazing title. Sometimes a State Representative Just Has to Mow Down Half a Dozen Ducks
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Apr 25, 2014 20:09
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Gorilla Desperado posted:Scalzi's one of my favorite people and that post is the latest where he knocks it out of the park. He's been writing about this stuff on his blog and in columns for a long time and in a very clear and understandable way. Definitely worth reading. Yeah, his "easy mode" explanation of privilege is when the idea finally clicked for me. Like, I'd heard about it before and people had tried to explain it, but it wasn't until then that it was "Oh, now I get it". He is pretty funny and is on spot on a lot of stuff. Really worth reading. His latest thing on threats, sexism, and online behavior is good as well. It highlighted a blind spot is didn't realize I had. Once I discount my messed up childhood, I can't think of a time I was threatened with violence by a woman and they meant it. Plenty of times have men done it, but I can't think of a single time a woman threatened me for anything I did and it meant anything. So it highlights well the difference in what you experience when you do something controversial as a man and as a woman.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:13
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Fried Chicken posted:Yeah, his "easy mode" explanation of privilege is when the idea finally clicked for me. Like, I'd heard about it before and people had tried to explain it, but it wasn't until then that it was "Oh, now I get it". I'd agree with his articles more if they didn't seem like blatant, over-the-top pandering. I generally agree with his points re: privilege and sexism but I loving hate the way he makes them - he purposefully adopts and accusatory aggressive stance and then seems bewildered when people become defensive.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:20
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Fried Chicken posted:See my earlier post about a ritual totem rather than a tool.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:21
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Rap Record Hoarder posted:Is it accurate to say that every society ever has been racist? Lots of societies have been xenophobic, and a fair few have had extreme biases against other groups, but from what I've read and been taught, the kind of ingrained, structural racism that we deal with today is a result of a very specific path of development tied to Western modernity ideas of constructing nation-states around racial and/or ethnic identities which requires juxtaposing other racial and/or ethnic groups as being antithetical or somehow otherwise inherently different (see Andrea Smith's the Three Pillars of White Supremacy). Not saying that every society before the peace of Westphalia was dancing in a circle singing Kumbaya, but there's plenty of evidence that shows many ancient societies were racially and/or ethnically diverse or at the very least, not trying to kill other people solely based on being a different color than them. You're right in the sense that racism as we see it and as it is practiced today is a relatively recent development. But I don't think you could find a society in which bigotry in some form or another existed. Humans are going to otherize groups and classes of people, and it's that otherization that's the problem, rather than the specific flavor of bigotry applied.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:22
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