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Valeria the Saint's mistake wasn't great feats. It was her successors' faults. Also, the Apostle was the best. And, reformed the Empire? Yaroslav didn't reform the Empire, he just reskinned it and lost it a third of it's territory by assassinating his own senators (well ok, IC I guess it was because he was Russian and took power in the first place). But the Yaroslavs have learned, the Empress will have the Count introduce himself on friendly terms. Perhaps I can respect them now. Readingaccount fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Apr 26, 2014 |
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Apr 26, 2014 16:26
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Hah, our Black Chamber wankfest was completely irrelevant, the Tsar was killed by a Russian , in Russia, while touring his Russian lands, and Valeria was killed a schizophrenic Greek Duchess for no reason at all. I think the best part of all that is that Gabriella didn't kill her niece, but still gets the Richard III treatment.  Anyway , part of it is just horrible luck, like inventing gunpowder, mines and bombs, but then getting invaded by Mongols before the weapons could be made reliable , effective or cheap, but I'm kind of convinced by the idea that Chinese technology advanced so far and so quickly that it leapfrogged over some basic concepts and technologies that became important later on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0OhXxx7cQg Like discovering ceramics and porcelain, but missing glass, which means they missed lens grinding, which lead to spectacles, telescopes, microscopes ect. Inventing paper and printing, but never adopting the printing press. Working out magnetism and inventing the compass , but missing the astrolabe. Designing massive ocean going Junks in the 2nd century, but missing the process that lead from the clinker hull rowboat to the longship, the cog and on to modern designs.  Of course none of this stuff is game changing on its own, but taken all together it lead to the Renaissance , the age of discovery and the scientific revolution. 
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Apr 26, 2014 22:13
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Readingaccount posted:Valeria the Saint's mistake wasn't great feats. It was her successors' faults.   More the fool you. No matter how friendly the introduction is, he is still a foreigner to every group living in the Empire. It can go three ways: he can acclamte to Roman ways, take a Roman name for his dynasty, and maybe rule on his own (with our help). He might be overly stubborn, keeping his lesser English name and heritage, and become a tool of the doukes and despots. Or, he will be overthrown in a palace coup or civil war. No Earl can rule over us: he must make himself an Emperor of the Romans.
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Apr 26, 2014 22:25
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Ghetto Prince posted:Hah, our Black Chamber wankfest was completely irrelevant, the Tsar was killed by a Russian , in Russia, while touring his Russian lands, and Valeria was killed a schizophrenic Greek Duchess for no reason at all. I think the best part of all that is that Gabriella didn't kill her niece, but still gets the Richard III treatment. I think that's honestly one of my favorite things to have happened in the entire LP so far. Two things that have been portrayed (even in the "modern" historian PoV posts) as being part of the accepted (if not necessarily undisputed) historical narrative turned out to be totally untrue.
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Apr 26, 2014 22:43
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Ghetto Prince posted:Of course none of this stuff is game changing on its own, but taken all together it lead to the Renaissance , the age of discovery and the scientific revolution. It would be pretty neat if China was strong/technically adept enough to be playable going into EUIV here.
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Apr 26, 2014 22:50
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Rincewind posted:I think that's honestly one of my favorite things to have happened in the entire LP so far. Two things that have been portrayed (even in the "modern" historian PoV posts) as being part of the accepted (if not necessarily undisputed) historical narrative turned out to be totally untrue. I mean, how were we supposed to know the truth? We don't have to act like the Black Chamber exists, since it doesn't in-game. Is it possible to make a Hashishin type assassin group for other religions?
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Apr 26, 2014 22:56
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 Empress Basillike I Yaroslavovna  Hugh de Mowbray, Earl of Sussex  : Honorable members of the Senate, I present my son and the crown prince of the empire, Hugh de Mowbray, Earl of Sussex.: I ask that you grant him the same respect and deference you do to myself. I am getting old, and it is time Hugh began assuming some of the responsibilities of an emperor. We are in a time of transition, in a great many ways, and it is very important that we procede in an orderly and prudent manner.: One cannot build a new state through willpower alone. This is the lesson of Tsar Yaroslav and the fall of Kiev-Byzantium. : To build an institution that lasts requires the utmost of planning, care, and forethought. This is the lesson of Augustus.: I shall now leave it to Prince Hugh to guide you through this construction of a new edifice of state. : Thank you, Mother.: Now, it is plainly evident to any with the eyes to see that the institutions of the prior centuries are obsolete.: As an Englishman, I feel I am uniquely able to see the ravages wrought by adherence to the old instruments of feudalism: The England of the de Contevilles, which for generations had long been perhaps the most stable state in all of Europe was shattered in an instant by Gregory de Conteville's attempts to forge a single empire out of the lords of England and the princes of Germany.: Now there is no England— just a paddock of mutually antagonistic dukes and earls. And the Holy Roman Empire itself found its strength sapped by this feudal power struggle, and was easily shattered by the Ming.: In our own empire, we have perhaps been more fortunate. But the institutions of old are still straining— the "theme system" nothing more than a glorified network of vassals and lieges, the army dependent upon levies, the central state propped up by nobles whose obligations to the empire are ambiguous and uncodified.: Our instrumental role in the victory of the League shows the great feats we are capable of, at our best. But our failure to intervene on behalf of the doomed Leónese revolt due to the ongoing revolt of Modena, Kartli, and the Pecheneg Kingdom shows how, in many ways, we are weaker than we have ever been. Our state is its own worst enemy.: Even the office of emperor and empress needs to change in our new age. It is time we finally plucked the Diocletian's diadem off the brow of the emperor, and he forsakes the luxuries and trappings of a distant tyrant in favor of the stately dignity of a princeps.: Augustus' relationship with the Senate and the offices of the Republic was remarkable cordial; in his example, I hope to find the model for my relationship to the New Senate. I shall be the emperor, but I shall rule as the first among equals, not your lord and master.: He won't for example, drag you to an inn God knows where and get you blown up, for example.: In the coming weeks and months, we shall together do much to build the blueprints of our future. But first we shall tackle the two questions about the basic nature of our state:: First, are we the empire of Byzantium or of Rome?: Clearly, we are the inheritors of the ancient legacy of the Romans, and no matter what our future is, there is a clear succession from Augustus to our present age. And certainly I do not propose breaking that hitherto unbroken chain.: We are Greeks, Turks, Pechenegs, Arabs, Italians, Cumans, and Slavs. We are people from far outside the borders of the empire who have come to seek their fortunes within it— Somalians, Germans, Chinese from the rebel fiefdoms, Mongols, Russians, and— yes, even the English. We are a union of many peoples.: But it's time we just got right down to it and gave that union a proper name. OOC: It's time to stop alternating between "Byzantine Empire" and "Roman Empire" in every post and get our country a real name. Note that all our ideas will be customized (based on things that happened in CK2 and things that happen in this Senate session), so don't let the relative merits of EU4's Byzantine and Roman ideas influence your vote. Mostly, I just feel like as we move into the early modern era, it's probably a little weird for historians to call us something different than what like half the people living in our country call ourselves.Voting format: ##Vote Rome or ##Vote Byzantium. Also, I highly encourage discussion, debate, and changing your vote if somebody's argument sways better. However, if you do change your vote, please make my life better by putting ##Unvote Rome or ##Unvote Byzantium before your new vote. : While that vote is ongoing, we shall also begin discussions about how to clarify and reform the relationship between the central state and its vassals.: Rebellious dukes and kings have made a mockery of the idea that the theme system is run by appointed officers of the empire and not petty rulers presiding over independent fiefdoms.: We cannot simply, say, round up all the dukes, exarchs, vassal monarchs, etc. and execute them... as satisfying as that would be. The relative power of the vassals and our own armies is such that we could never put such a policy into practice.: Certain vassals, of course, have shown nothing but the utmost of loyalty to the empire— the kings and queens of Sicily, for example, whose support have been instrumental in holding the empire together for generations.: Finally, while still small compared to the empire of antiquity, our present state is too large and far-flung to be run soley from Constantinople. Any reform of the theme session or settlement with the vassals will need to account for this.: I therefore open the floor to proposals to solve the following question: How shall we create a more stable and productive arrangement between the empire and its vassals? How shall we govern our vast territories without encouraging rebellion?: As your princeps, I will choose the three or four proposals I deem to have the most merit, and put it to a vote.Voting format: ##Propose [your plan for what to do about the theme system/vassals/etc. here]. After the Rome/Byzantium vote is done, I'll pick the most interesting proposals (frankly, with more of an eye towards an interesting EU4 start than what Hugh might want in-character  ) and have the senate vote on which one we'll use.
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Apr 26, 2014 23:45
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quote:Mostly, I just feel like as we move into the early modern era, it's probably a little weird for historians to call us something different than what like half the people living in our country call ourselves. ##Vote Rome
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Apr 26, 2014 23:54
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##Vote Rome I, Senator Skyfinder, ## Propose that, in order to remove some responsibilities and power from the nobility outside of Constantinople, that the Senate finally be allowed to handle some of the procedural and administrative matters of state. The Senate has been ever loyal to Rome and the ideals of the Empire. Truly, if we are to in some way weaken the nobility, the best hands to put that power in if not the office of Emperor/Empress would be in the hands of the Senate.
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Apr 26, 2014 23:55
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##Vote Byzantium
Blackunknown fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 26, 2014 23:55
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##Vote Rome The people in the empire have always been ROMANS. Byzantion was a meager little village.
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Apr 26, 2014 23:57
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A thousand roads lead forever unto Rome! ##vote Rome We are Romans! We have always been Romans, and we will always be Romans! You, however, O Earl, are no Roman. Some English princeling thinks he can rule over us by taking off Diocletian's crown? Ha. The absolute authority of the Emperor is needed now more than ever! We must begin reform by showing our vassals who is in control: you must dissolve Sicily, exile the traitors of the House of Toulouse, and assign its provinces to the Senate! ##Sponsor Sykinder Senatorial Administration Act Lord Cyrahzax fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 26, 2014 23:58
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##Vote Byzantium. As my family has said for generations, we are not Rome, we are Byzantium. I also ##Sponsor Sykinder Senatorial Administration Act. We the Senate have been proven loyal to the Empire above all else, and we should be given power to better serve our country.
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Apr 26, 2014 23:59
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 ##Vote Byzantium We are, after all, not the Rome of old, but rather a new state, a state progressing beyond the wildest dreams of Rome. It is also clear that we can gain progress by learning from our newest and most dangerous foes - the Ming. ##Propose The Ming Solution whereby the core of the Empire (Greece, Tuscany, Anatolia & Bulgaria) is placed under the Emperor and the Senate's direct control, while the periphery is granted out to client realms (which may be existing structures, existing lords granted greater control over their neighbours or old entities reborn) who can more ably administer the outlying territories, specifically the Kingdoms of Sicily, the Grand Duchy of Croatia & Bosnia, the Republic of Belegorod and the Exarchate of Georgia & Crimea. Finally, the Valerian Order should be granted control of the Alexandrian provinces.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:04
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##Vote Rome ##Propose: Imperial Sword Hunt - I propose an end to the personal armies that have formed the backbone of power for the Douxes and other lords who have so continually plunged the Empire into ruin and revolt. If we are to have soldiers they must be soldiers of the state alone, paid for and housed by the expenditure of the Empire and loyal first and foremost to that Empire. I further suggest that the simplest method to achieve this is to initiate a simple tax upon all within the realm who hold land with income above a certain value. Then have that simple tax scale in proportion to the number of armed retainers they keep. If this tax is kept small but gradually increased it is to be hoped that it will not at first trigger an automatic revolt, and that by the time it does we will have shifted the balance of power to the Senate. ##Propose: The creation of an Imperial Bureaucracy. - Whilst our contact with the Ming has been turbulent to say the least it has served to make an important lesson abundantly clear, trusting the administration of an Empire to men who have risen to title and position purely by the blood in their veins and not the thoughts and ability that reside in their minds is a critical error. Establishing an Imperial Bureaucracy staffed by only the best and the brightest, and with no ability for patronage or nepotism to hold sway, will increase efficiency of the state by a vast amount, thus allowing us to maintain greater control over our far flung possessions. To help ensure the honesty and efficiency of the new organisation I would propose that any who wish to join it must renounce all hereditary titles, and make the penalties for abusing or misusing their power death. Further we could also reinstate the position of Governor, but have it only open to members of the Bureaucracy as a non-hereditary post. In this manner we can assign the government of the various provinces of the Empire to men whose loyalty is to the Empire alone, without noble title themselves and thus with less inclination to attempt to grab more such things, and one would hope backed up by armies loyal not to them but to the Empire and Senate.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:05
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##Vote Byzantium
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Apr 27, 2014 00:06
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Have some pride in your own heritage, senators. We are not children of the seven hills. ##Vote Byzantium
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Apr 27, 2014 00:07
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Our capital's defenses are the Theodosian Walls that have never been violated, not the Aurelian Walls that have been subjugated dozens of times before. ##Vote Byzantium
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Apr 27, 2014 00:09
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 ##Vote Byzantium You know, I don't even think we can be called Rome unless we control Rome. We are the Byzantium Empire. Rome has fallen far too many times for my taste. ##Sponsor The Ming Solution I do agree that the areas around Constantinople itself should be held by the ruler of the Empire. Otherwise, some Douxes might get the idea in their heads that they can take Constantinople itself and we go through a hundredth war for independence or control over the empire or whatever they're fighting for this week.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:11
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 Your Majesties honor the Senate with your presence. But I must say that the choice is clear. ##Vote Byzantium. The Roman name as an empire is one of dominating other cultures, not one of cultural unity save for Romanicizing them. We have seen how that works in reverse with the Ming! We must be the counter to their ways. Let a Roman be a citizen of Byzantium, and not an artificial cultural construct that we force upon others. Let the word 'Roman' be synonymous with 'citizen', for that is what we all are! Allow me to read out a piece of legislature I wish the Senate to consider: ##Propose The State of Imperial Law Let it be known to all mayors, bishops, Exarchs, patricians, counts, douxes, and persons that the 'feudal system' has proven to be unsustainable. >It has proven to cause civil war every time an new Emperor or Empress is crowned. >It has proven that the douxes have sought to cement personal power when they saw fit, often at cost to the strength of the Empire. >It has proven that some Emperors and Empresses and Douxes have taken to torture and castration when the mood strikes them. THEREFORE, Let the Empire be restructured as such: That the Emperor or Empress of Byzantium shall be unquestioned as the chief ruler of the Byzantium Empire, that all Kingdom titles in use that are not related to Sicily be abolished, and that the Douxes shall recognize him or her as such regardless of the age, gender, or personal beliefs of the Emperor or Empress. That this Byzantine Empire shall be a secular, non-ethnic state. The basis for a Byzantine Empire shall be the right to be free from oppression from any source, foreign or otherwise. That the vassals shall no longer be allowed to or have requested of them levies. In exchange for protection by a standing army that is paid for in part by taxes, that the nobles shall not have their stations, titles, monies, or lands stripped of them by Imperial fiat unless it is found in a court of his or her peers that they are guilty of a crime worthy of such action - up to and including treason. These vassals shall assist in the regional governance of all realms deemed by the Emperor and Senate as being too distant for direct rule. That the Senate shall maintain its status as an advisory body to the Emperor, and shall be consulted on manners of the state on a complete and timely basis. The Senate shall be granted the right to vote on issues crucial to the future of the state, on manners of the citizens, and to ensure that the Empire remains strong. The Senate shall also, in coordination with the Emperor, establish persons and departments to enact and enforce the tasks necessary for the Empire to thrive. That the citizens of Byzantium shall be granted certain inalienable rights that shall not be infringed by the Emperor, the Senate, or the nobility. These shall include the right to worship freely, the right to free speech, the right to pursue happiness, the right to not be discriminated on the basis of ethnic standing or gender, and the abolishment of any and all forms of slavery. AdventFalls fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 27, 2014 00:12
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 ##Vote Byzantium
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Apr 27, 2014 00:18
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##Vote Rome Rome has not only been far greater than Byzantium, despite the best effort of our Basileii and our dear Senate, it also carries something the word "Byzantium" doesn't away from our borders. Legitimacy. The Eagle of Rome is still the pinnacle of safety and prosperity in Europe. A power able to return to the olden times, even if only in symbols and culture, would see lands and people flock to its banner. Meanwhile, we Greek Byzantines have accrued some sort of infamy thanks to the hordes of douxes who break the realm decade after decade, and were I a prospective citizen of our nation I would want none of that. As an addendum, I, Senator Sparq, propose the ##Doux Reward Act, in which loyal douxes would be rewarded by mantaining the status quo on their lands, and the rebellious ones put in chains, its lands property of our nascent State to be administered by Senate-appointed governors, in five year terms.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:20
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##Vote Byzantium As for the whole vassal problem thing, I ##Propose the Imperial Redesign. The Imperial Redesign is rather simple - we should no longer be an Empire. Empires are not the way of the future, and as long as we hold on to that, our vassals will hold on to their old ideas. Therefore, I suggest changing the name of our empire from "Byzantine Empire" to either "Byzantine Republic" (to represent the Senate's power) or simply "Byzantium". Nothing else has to change - just the name. Make a big deal out of it with a big ceremony and poo poo, and it should be able to prepare vassals being stripped of their power in the name of the changing tide slowly but surely. Basically, this is more of a supplement to other solutions. EDIT: OOC: I was originally going to suggest turning ourselves into a Republican Dictatorship (that just happened to keep electing people from the same family, what a coincidence) and calling ourselves the Byzantine Republic, but apparently Republics are kind of tricky in EUIV, and I think we've already got enough problems. TheMcD fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 27, 2014 00:20
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You Phanariote fool. Why has the Empire experienced so many woes? We have turned away from God! Orthodoxy must be embraced as it never was before, to regain His favor! And a non-ethnic empire? An empire where we do not even try to uplift the barbarians we rule? Outrageous! What would bind us then? What does the average peasant know of "freedom from oppression"? What does that even mean? Heathens and barbarians must be oppressed for their own good, that their children may become greater! And you would question no Emperor? No heathen, no heretic, no monster would raise your ire? Ha! An Emperor must be capable, Orthodox, and civilized! Anything else is an insult to the office, and to every soul it rules over!
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Apr 27, 2014 00:20
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##Vote Rome
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Apr 27, 2014 00:21
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##Vote Byzantium ... For while we value the law that we inherited from Rome, we also has something more: we are a country of coalitions, both inside and out, working to ensure stability and prosperity of many cultures.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:23
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:
And your would propose that we remain close-minded to the outside? That we put our peasants in metaphorical, or even physical chains? See how that turned out for the Ming, then get back to me! The Hungarians might be full of themselves, but they're full of themselves at least for a half-decent reason! Your 'pure' Greek Orthodox douxes nearly disintegrated the entire Empire in a search for a pliable 'pure' Greek Orthodox Emperor, just because the true line had ancestors from Russia!
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Apr 27, 2014 00:24
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AdventFalls posted:
Of course it went poorly for the Ming! They are heathens! And you would speak to me of chains? HA! You would bind our lesser subjects in the chains of barbarism, of hellfire, for mere expediency! And the true line? For someone who disregards blood so much, this seems like an odd point of contention. Why should this Empire be inherited? It is beyond that, above that! The most capable, most unifying candidate should be chosen to rule, not the whelp of the current Emperor. Yaroslav destroyed everything with his "reforms" and his arrogance. If he had adopted Romans ways and had become a Basileus, we would still hold Jerusalem!
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Apr 27, 2014 00:30
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:
The douxes had him assassinated, you fool! They had him murdered so they could break the post of Emperor and force it to serve THEM, and not the other way around!
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Apr 27, 2014 00:31
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Last I checked, the Pope and his hordes of mercenary zealots hold Rome. ##Vote Byzantium
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Apr 27, 2014 00:32
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For those voting Byzantium - why would you rather be associated with some Greek peasant fishermen than Constantine and his New Rome? Justinian and his Laws? Valeria and her Sainthood?
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Apr 27, 2014 00:33
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GoatLord posted:Last I checked, the Pope and his hordes of mercenary zealots hold Rome. ##Vote Byzantium Speaking of that guy, ##Propose that the first national idea for the Pope is like -95% mercenary cost to continue that hilarity.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:34
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AdventFalls posted:
Why was he assassinated? Because he change the status quo! He proclaimed Kiev the equal of Rome, destroyed the Senate, and decided to wander the Empire rather than rule it! He had a role to fill, and he went his own foolish way. How could anyone let that stand? You can't break something and not expect the pieces to angry. Lord Cyrahzax fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 27, 2014 00:35
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:
How COULD they? To rebel against the Emperor is a slap in the face of all the great Roman Emperors you proclaim to kneel at! They sweated and died so that an Empire could live. And you would have the status quo? Try getting out of Constantinople sometime. Try meeting the peoples we rule over. Or are you scared you'll be blown the gently caress up, like the Douxes did to the Tsar?
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Apr 27, 2014 00:37
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 It might come as no surprise given this Senator's ancestry, but I ##Vote for Rome as the title of our Empire. But I say this not as a pretense of merely being a new face for a truly ancient Regime, but as something that honors its past by living up to ideals that the old chant of Senatus Populusque Romanus exemplified. Our prince has done well to reaffirm these ideals by stating himself as a first among equals. But it seems like always, there will be people unhappy about the current Emperor or Empress for a number of reasons, to say nothing of the Douxes. Therefore, I ##Propose the Pax Romana Act, that while we rule we rule in an Imperial peace, with the laws of Rome codifying themselves into a reasonable system for everyone, from the Emperor to the senate to every doux to even the peasants, to voice their grievances without rising up into open revolt.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:37
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AdventFalls posted:
Yaroslav was no Roman Emperor, just as Theodoric wasn't. He was the Tsar of Kiev to the end, and didn't understand that he had inherited something higher. Something greater. Something so above his barbarian understanding that it burned him away! That status quo is gone. I long for it! How can we not? A pious world, a world ruled by the Pentarchy and the Komnenoi! A world of Roman victory, Roman glory, and untainted by Yaroslav's spawn.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:43
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##Vote Byzantium The desire for Roman ideals was in part why the Yaroslavs were so distrusted, why the failure of Branas will forever stain the records and annals of history and why repairing the Schism caused so much problems for the Byzantine state in particular. That rush for "Roman supremacy above all" led to greedy land grabs that proved unsustainable. Granted a lot of our problems also came from the toxic nature of the Douxes and the political system. Byzantium and the world that we know of is now one of many cultures, languages and indeed beliefs. Christianity shares the world with two distinct flavours of Islam, the Jewish faith, Pagan beliefs of the areas once conquered by the horde, and even a resurrection of the old Persian religion. As a state, it is best to adapt and make sure that the hatred of anything not adhering to the old Roman ideals cause yet more strife and turmoil for the people of Byzantium, or worse a dissolution of the whole state in it's entirety. Senator TheMcD makes a good point of what it means to be an Empire. Valeria the Saint ruled an Empire. Kiev-Byzantium was an Empire. We are not anymore. If the future shows us worthy, then so be it. Keeping this tag of Empire simply encourages falling foul of the same follies and errors of the past.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:44
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 Dàjiā hǎo. When Gan Ying sailed to Mesopotamia to meet the Romans hundreds of years ago, he came back with tales of a place called Daqin. This mythical land was a place where kings were just and noble, where rare metals and gems glistened in the bare soil, where great cities stood guarded by mighty walls. This was an exaggeration of course, and mostly second-hand tales from Parthians, but nonetheless, the Chinese clearly understood that a great and mighty empire to rival their own lay out on the other edge of the world. Conversely, our empire is referred to as Fulin. To the motherland, Fulin is but another distant kingdom, unworthy of great effort to contact. Our fall could not be greater. Under the Latins, Rome was the great counterweight to China, the natural counterpart to the Middle Kingdom. This "Byzantium" to them, is merely another barbarian kingdom. This cannot be. ##Vote Rome, for we must discard this petty division of the modern day, and embrace the image of our glorious past. If not at home, at least projected to others. The name "Fulin" carries no weight beyond the Frontier. But "Daqin" is a legend, one that is spoken of still to this day. As for restructuring of our government, I ##Sponsor The Ming Solution and ##Sponsor Creation of an Imperial Bureaucracy. One only needs to look at the success of the Ming to see how these systems have favored China. Worst case scenario, the Emperor loses a deal of power, which I'm sure many of you wouldn't mind, best case scenario, the Emperor takes back the power which these petty douxes have stolen from the ancient office.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:47
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##Vote Rome for there is no place like home.
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