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I honestly don't know how you'd translate Noona. You can translate something like onee-san as 'older sister', but Noona refers to such a wide variety, and is used in so many ways. A hot older girl? Noona. A very close family friend? Noona. Sisters? Noona. Random girl you need to be respectful to? Noona. Heck, it's even pretty common for aunts and stuff to insist to be called noona in media at least, because it makes them sound younger. I suppose you could translate every one differently, but that requires looking at the tone of the conversation... something scanlators aren't very good at a lot of the time. edit: It'd probably end up with poo poo like the witch saying 'this sister' which in terms of her flirting would be very creepy. KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Apr 26, 2014 |
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Apr 26, 2014 07:14
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Just use 'senorita', it works perfectly.
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Apr 26, 2014 07:33
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PringleCreamEgg posted:Just use 'senorita', it works perfectly. Yeah, but it's supposed to be an english translation, isn't it?  Plus we'd have people wondering if she's spanish or something.
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Apr 26, 2014 08:57
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Yeah, but it's supposed to be an english translation, isn't it? Yeah, having f her use a Spanish word would be... awkward. I would definitely notice and be like 'what the heck' even though I speak (highschool level) Spanish and obviously know what that means.
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Apr 26, 2014 09:08
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Probably just use different translations based on the context, no?
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Apr 26, 2014 09:36
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I'm loving this webcomic more than I probably should. It makes me think what I would do in his place and essentially I would make myself into a high intelligence, high luck, high charisma Fallout character. I talk my way out of situations. If I can't talk my way out, I think my way out. If I can't talk or think my way out, I hit my enemies in the eyes, they fumble around in a panic and injure their own groin as they try to bite me. I don't question it. I'm terrified of radscorpions though. I have a feeling like our hero is going to begin paying for not having any developed close combat skills really soon. I also hope that he begins to wear incredibly mismatched clothing and armor for their stat buffs and nothing else. My pink hello kitty backpack? It gives me a +2 to all of my stats. Mismatched socks? Passive bonuses to experience. Heelie shoes? Bonuses to dodge.
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Apr 26, 2014 11:57
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KittyEmpress posted:I honestly don't know how you'd translate Noona. You can translate something like onee-san as 'older sister', but Noona refers to such a wide variety, and is used in so many ways. A hot older girl? Noona. A very close family friend? Noona. Sisters? Noona. Random girl you need to be respectful to? Noona. Heck, it's even pretty common for aunts and stuff to insist to be called noona in media at least, because it makes them sound younger. Noona is a lot of fun to say, after falling into a K-hole with Korean variety shows last winter I cant help but love it. Noona noona noona, lets keep it.
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Apr 26, 2014 14:00
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Fun fact: Did you know that noona is a gender aware pronoun in terms of the speaker? It's supposed to be a term for an older sister by a younger brother. Uhnni (or however the romanization goes) is the term for an older sister by a younger sister. Equivalents exist for older brothers as well: hyung for younger brothers and oopa for younger sisters.
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Apr 26, 2014 15:22
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If it was me who was doing the scan editing, I'd have localized it to "This Sis'" or "This sister". Seems fitting enough, and in context, we're all aware that she's not related to him. Women sometimes refer to themselves as sisters, among their girlfriends and such, in a jaunty way, so I think it'd work.
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Apr 26, 2014 15:50
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I think y'all are too hung up on translating Noona into something (my fault for bringing it up ). The trouble is that English style and structure means it's probably going to sound forced no matter what, since we'd normally just use first person pronouns. Worse still, the fact that Jee-Han reacts to that part of her line means we can't just pretend it's not there (or sneak something in later). Rather than force a clumsy translation, I think the best option is to reformulate the line entirely and approach from a different direction. Perhaps through form of address, e.g. "You want to spend the night with me, kid?" That's just an example off the top of my head. Obviously, kid may not be the best option depending on the actual age difference, but I hope it illustrates my point.
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Apr 26, 2014 22:38
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I think unless you're some kind of master translator, you're just best off using the foreign term. People leave Japanese honorifics in scanlations, and people accept that willingly. No reason ya can't do the same thing with Korean terms. Or if you don't think people are gonna learn another set of terms you could just use "Nee-san".
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Apr 26, 2014 22:59
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XboxPants posted:I think unless you're some kind of master translator, you're just best off using the foreign term. People leave Japanese honorifics in scanlations, and people accept that willingly. No reason ya can't do the same thing with Korean terms. Doesn't really solve the problem that people don't call themselves "this ______" in English. It sounds really contrived.
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Apr 26, 2014 23:11
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I don't think you gotta be a master translator or anything. The people translating already know what the author intended to convey. They just don't wanna rewrite anything so it makes sense in English
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Apr 27, 2014 00:04
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This is a fan translation. It doesn't need to fully localize everything. I have higher expectations of professionals, though.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:07
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I'm not sure about translating it to kid either - it works, but it sorta changes the tone. While referring to yourself as noona is a sign of being haughty/having a high opinion of yourself, but while it's a bit uncouth it's not really offensive to the person you're talking to. Calling them a kid is very offensive, at least in my opinion. I'm not sure why I'm examining this at all, because it doesn't matter.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:11
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If you read enough Manhwa, you'll see all these Korean-specific pronouns (noona, oppa, etc.). Magician is full of another on, Ajussi or something like that. Iremi won't stop calling Edermask that. Eventually, you'll gloss over them. It's usually pretty obvious what the relationship is. If the guy is younger and he's talking to an older girl, you know it. So, he uses noona, and you're like. Whatever. It threw me at first mainly because I'd just gotten used to all the freaking Japanese honorifics and now the Koreans pull the same stunt! Even worse though. Also, a bunch of Manhwas have instruction pages that spell this out and Wikipedia is replete with information on this topic. Regarding The Gamer. Man, I am really enjoying this Manhwa. It's one of the best yet. The witch with her wolf-man-pet-dude is great. Hard to know what the red-haired girl is all about. I don't believe our hero will have a romantic relationship with the teacher's sick daughter. I think she's there to give Jee-Han a reason to up his healing/intellect/whatever skills. Plus, maybe he'll gain an important ally in the sunglasses-teacher-dude-father. I got the impression that sunglasses-teacher-father-guy (I actually spent about 20 minutes getting all these names put into a post and my system locked up and all my work got deleted, so I'm a bit frustrated and I still don't have these names readily available since I had to actually page through a bunch of pages in the Manhwa to get them originally) was a bad guy at first. I don't think he is, though. I don't know why I got that impression. He seemed bad. Maybe it's the sunglasses. Sunglasses usually indicates evil, right? Except for the guy that writes Bleach. He wears sunglasses indoors, I believe. I think that's because he thinks that's cool. Or, maybe he's evil too. I don't know.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:24
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That wolf man dude looks just like Mad Dog from Tower of God.
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Apr 27, 2014 02:19
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Dan7el posted:Sunglasses usually indicates evil, right? Except for the guy that writes Bleach. He wears sunglasses indoors, I believe. I think that's because he thinks that's cool. Or, maybe he's evil too. I don't know.
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Apr 27, 2014 02:58
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XboxPants posted:I think unless you're some kind of master translator, you're just best off using the foreign term. People leave Japanese honorifics in scanlations, and people accept that willingly. No reason ya can't do the same thing with Korean terms. I honestly agree with this. The problem is that SA has a history of getting pretty worked up about this sort of thing (the One Piece "nakama" drama comes to mind here). Alternatively you have madness like some idiots "translating" Titan into "Eotena" which is up there with one of the most stupid things I have ever seen. Personally, I quite like having it use the korean term, because its a Korean manga in a Korean setting and I feel that it helps to highlight that. To translate Noona as big sis or something like that feels pretty lazy, as that isn't a natural way to translate it into English either. In context of this specific scene it might have been better to have her boasting about her looks or something but in 2014 I would wager that most people are familiar with honorifics anyway.
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Apr 27, 2014 03:10
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I used to play bass for Nakama Drama
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Apr 27, 2014 04:15
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what's nakama and what's dramatic about it
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Apr 27, 2014 04:45
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I'd explain, but I don't think I could quite get across the nuances in English.
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Apr 27, 2014 04:47
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Calling someone Big Sister or whatever is awkward, but referring to anyone as Big Brother trips right over some pre-existing associations. Translation is easy, localization is harrrrrd.
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Apr 27, 2014 04:48
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I propose we introduce the casual term Big Daddy into common English vernacular, too. Or at least common English scanlator vernacular, which most of this is.
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Apr 27, 2014 06:31
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Here's a better version of chapter 33.
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Apr 27, 2014 07:05
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Gotta give them points for a quick bounce back from that silliness with BAP.
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Apr 27, 2014 08:04
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FiftySeven posted:I honestly agree with this. The problem is that SA has a history of getting pretty worked up about this sort of thing (the One Piece "nakama" drama comes to mind here). Alternatively you have madness like some idiots "translating" Titan into "Eotena" which is up there with one of the most stupid things I have ever seen. Personally, I quite like having it use the korean term, because its a Korean manga in a Korean setting and I feel that it helps to highlight that. To translate Noona as big sis or something like that feels pretty lazy, as that isn't a natural way to translate it into English either. In context of this specific scene it might have been better to have her boasting about her looks or something but in 2014 I would wager that most people are familiar with honorifics anyway. I don't really mind it in Japanese just because I know them, but I seriously thought she was using some sort of magic term that people in the Abyss say. I'm in the camp of change it to make sense and if there's some weird nuisance that you just can't possibly get across then just leave a note.
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Apr 27, 2014 09:20
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What bugs me most about bad scanlations is the sound effects being left in the native alphabet. I get why they don't, because on the surface it seems like you're spending more time on the typesetting for something most people won't care about. The thing is, when they're just left as is, it really draws your attention to them and you probably aren't going to even begin to understand what the sound is supposed to be. It drags me out of every chapter, every scene, every panel. It totally sucks. It's a smaller thing, but it's harder to overlook. Also the other group doesn't even translate the title, and that poo poo's on the same white background every week. Come on, guys, just spend the time on the logo and you're pretty much done with it forever. Just loving steal it from BAP if you really don't want to make your own. To me, and most readers who want a translation, Korean looks like a loving inkblot. If that was all I had to go with, I wouldn't even know this manhwa's name!
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Apr 27, 2014 12:00
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I'm not sure if the goal of translation is to make you completely forget that this was ever in another language. Maybe it is sometimes, but not always. Personally I try to translate sound effects when it's relevant, but most of the time it's like the sound of footsteps or something. If you see the guy running in the panel, then you don't need the SFX translated. You know what a footstep sounds like, probably better than "tap tap" or whatever would convey. If the action is happening offscreen though, then leaving the SFX untranslated means the reader is losing information. Also, yes, translating the SFX takes ~5-10 times as long for something no one cares about. Clarste fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 27, 2014 12:04
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Clarste posted:I'm not sure if the goal of translation is to make you completely forget that this was ever in another language. Maybe it is sometimes, but not always. Personally I try to translate sound effects when it's relevant, but most of the time it's like the sound of footsteps or something. If you see the guy running in the panel, then you don't need the SFX translated. You know what a footstep sounds like, probably better than "tap tap" or whatever would convey. To me, it's really one of those things I don't notice until it's impossible not to. It's not like I'm paying much attention to sound effects in English comics, but when I can't read sound effects at all, it's like I've got tinnitus. Footsteps and poo poo are certainly minor, but even a tiny note on the important sound effects would be worth the effort. Most books have plenty of margin to work with. I guess it doesn't honestly bother me that much, since it's not like I've ever quit reading something because of it. It makes everything feel flat, though. Arsonist Daria fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 27, 2014 12:19
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:To me, it's really one of those things I don't notice until it's impossible not to. It's not like I'm paying much attention to sound effects in English comics, but when I can't read sound effects at all, it's like I've got tinnitus. Footsteps and poo poo are certainly minor, but even a tiny note on the important sound effects would be worth the effort. Most books have plenty of margin to work with. Redrawing is a bit like liberal translations in that you need to trust the translators skill a lot. Liberal translations doesn't seem to be that much of a problem in english because there is no bit translation effort outside of anime. In other language things a different. One example of the problem with liberal translation is the "People are looking like garbage"/"people are dropping like sparrows" problem. How do you translate someone quoting someone else, where the canon translation doen't make sense in the new context. This can become a major problem, for example with the German translation of Matrix.
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Apr 27, 2014 12:36
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I know that, for me, a comic doesn't really "come alive" until the sound effects and other things are translated. I might not notice them much individually, or spend much time reading them, but I definitely hear sound effects in my head when they've been translated, and not before. I'm basically missing out on part of the experience. If it's just the text in the speech bubbles or whatever, I tend to only focus on that.
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Apr 27, 2014 14:18
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Clarste posted:I'm not sure if the goal of translation is to make you completely forget that this was ever in another language. Maybe it is sometimes, but not always. Personally I try to translate sound effects when it's relevant, but most of the time it's like the sound of footsteps or something. If you see the guy running in the panel, then you don't need the SFX translated. You know what a footstep sounds like, probably better than "tap tap" or whatever would convey. If the action is happening offscreen though, then leaving the SFX untranslated means the reader is losing information. Depending on which theory you follow, it very well can be the goal of translation. I highly recommend you read Venuti; I find he's great food for thought, even if I don't entirely agree with him. WRT sound effects, I agree with people that the logistics involved in translating them in situ are often prohibitive, but yes, a margin note should be the bare minimum. Usually I just glide over SFX without reading them, through sheer force of habit these days. I can read the characters, but I'm so used to not being able to that they might as well be big chunky lines that obscure the art. It's a bit of a shame. DrSunshine posted:I know that, for me, a comic doesn't really "come alive" until the sound effects and other things are translated. I might not notice them much individually, or spend much time reading them, but I definitely hear sound effects in my head when they've been translated, and not before. I'm basically missing out on part of the experience. If it's just the text in the speech bubbles or whatever, I tend to only focus on that. It's the same for me. Actually, I'll go further. Even knowing what some of them mean and being able to read them doesn't do it for me. You can write "DON" as big as you want, it'll never have the impact of "Bang" for me. I realise this is probably just a personal failing, but it is how I feel. I remember buying the Viz translations of RuroKen years ago and enjoying their SFX translations more than I expected, which was good because the dialogue translation had all the soul and personality of a tax invoice.
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Apr 27, 2014 15:43
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The Evil Thing posted:Depending on which theory you follow, it very well can be the goal of translation. I highly recommend you read Venuti; I find he's great food for thought, even if I don't entirely agree with him. It's definitely an interesting topic; if one argues that you shouldn't have any foreign words, even when there's no equivalent concept, how far do you go in erasing the foreign-ness? Should "okonomiyaki" be translated as pancake, "shamisen" as ukelele? I disagree with that kind of thinking because the further you go down that hole, the more of the original meaning is lost. If you're going to be doing that much re-writing of a story, then isn't that goal better served by going ahead and just making an entirely new adaptation of the story into the target cultural context? But super-literal translation can also result in lost meaning if it's too literal for the reader to understand, so you do have to shoot for some kind of middle-ground. The issue for me is that as you try to localize & rewrite, you need not only a stronger grasp on both languages, you actually have to be a really good writer. That's why I usually prefer people to just do it a little more literally, since like tonberrytoby says, you don't need to trust the translator as much. All that said, I've certainly seen fan translation groups who are up to the task, who create amazing translations. They're just few and far between. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 27, 2014 15:58
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XboxPants posted:It's definitely an interesting topic; if one argues that you shouldn't have any foreign words, even when there's no equivalent concept, how far do you go in erasing the foreign-ness? Should "okonomiyaki" be translated as pancake, "shamisen" as ukelele? I disagree with that kind of thinking because the further you go down that hole, the more of the original meaning is lost. If you're going to be doing that much re-writing of a story, then isn't that goal better served by going ahead and just making an entirely new adaptation of the story into the target cultural context? That's like arguing that because you're removing honorifics you should also be translating foreign names literally. And as for "untranslatable concepts" I call bullshit. Just because something doesn't have a direct easy 1 to 1 translation doesn't mean it's untranslatable it means you have to be flexible and creative. In the case of "Noona" there may be multiple words you can use, something like Lady or Big Sister depending on the context.
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Apr 27, 2014 16:38
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XboxPants posted:It's definitely an interesting topic; if one argues that you shouldn't have any foreign words, even when there's no equivalent concept, how far do you go in erasing the foreign-ness? Should "okonomiyaki" be translated as pancake, "shamisen" as ukelele? I disagree with that kind of thinking because the further you go down that hole, the more of the original meaning is lost. If you're going to be doing that much re-writing of a story, then isn't that goal better served by going ahead and just making an entirely new adaptation of the story into the target cultural context? I know what you mean, I've read a few official translations of comics that definitely went too far in their localization. I'm fine with translating colloquialisms to their nearest equivalent, would even prefer it if, as you say, the translator is a good writer and knows the languages well. But when the translation has people's entire speech patterns converted to very specific Americanisms with no references to their original culture, and I can clearly see that they're in 15th-century Japan or whatever, it just looks bizarre. Elfgames posted:That's like arguing that because you're removing honorifics you should also be translating foreign names literally. And as for "untranslatable concepts" I call bullshit. Just because something doesn't have a direct easy 1 to 1 translation doesn't mean it's untranslatable it means you have to be flexible and creative. In the case of "Noona" there may be multiple words you can use, something like Lady or Big Sister depending on the context. He didn't say 'untranslatable', just that there's no easy equivalent. I completely agree that there are no truly untranslatable concepts, but there are definitely some that require a lot more words and different phrasing to translate. Converting these properly takes a great deal more skill than just mostly-localizing and explaining a couple of difficult words in a footnote. If you can do that, that's great, but if you can't, then frankly I'd prefer a poorer translation that sticks closer to the original meaning. It doesn't have anything to do with sperging about Glorious Asian Culture, just sperging about wanting to know what the hell the author actually wrote. Also, this isn't like arguing over honorifics at all. Japanese honorifics in particular can very easily be translated to western equivalents with no appreciable change in context. Even the Korean terms like 'Noona' are more difficult and potentially need more rewriting- if you just always translate it as 'big sister' you've failed, since it's used in so many instances where no westerner (except a creep) would ever refer to herself that way.
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Apr 27, 2014 17:13
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Elfgames posted:That's like arguing that because you're removing honorifics you should also be translating foreign names literally. Well, right, translating names would be using the same logic, just going to a further extreme with it. The reason I brought all of this up is because The Evil Thing was referring to it when he brought up Venuti (I think). There really is a school of thought that says that all signs of foreign-ness should be removed in order to create the "best" translation. It's not like I was making that up! Elfgames posted:And as for "untranslatable concepts" I call bullshit. Just because something doesn't have a direct easy 1 to 1 translation doesn't mean it's untranslatable it means you have to be flexible and creative. In the case of "Noona" there may be multiple words you can use, something like Lady or Big Sister depending on the context. I never said "untranslatable", I just said there are some things with no exact equivalent. That's why, just like you say, you have to be flexible and creative. But doing that takes more skill on the part of the translator, which then requires more trust on the part of the reader. Some translators are up to the challenge, but some aren't and so personally, for me, I'd rather if honorifics are left in a translation. (though honestly it's not that big of a deal) XboxPants fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Apr 27, 2014 |
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Apr 27, 2014 17:14
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I'd say the format matters too. A pure text work has plenty of space to work with to get all the little meanings across as best it can. Obviously editing is important to keep the flow but it's not like animation or a comic where space and length are incredibly limited.
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Apr 27, 2014 18:20
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tonberrytoby posted:One example of the problem with liberal translation is the "People are looking like garbage"/"people are dropping like sparrows" problem. How do you translate someone quoting someone else, where the canon translation doen't make sense in the new context. Uh... what? I'm not sure i understand what you're talking about, please explain. What's that about Matrix?
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Apr 27, 2014 19:08
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HenryEx posted:Uh... what? I'm not sure i understand what you're talking about, please explain. For example Muska's line "People are looking like garbage" gets sometimes quoted when you have a scene of a geek looking down from a high place. But the canon translation "They are dropping like sparrows" makes no sense in most of those contexts. So how would you translate in this situation? If you are in a non English country this even happens with mainstream works. For example in the German version of Matrix the line "Dodge this" got liberally translated. The new line was "Only an agent" which makes absolutely no sense in other movies that referenced Matrix.
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Apr 27, 2014 19:15
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