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bebaloorpabopalo posted:It's a guessing game for both players and there's a ton of possible outcomes. Player 1 can focus, and in response Player 2 focuses. Player 1 can backdash without releasing, and Player 2 can whiff their focus and get punished, or vice versa. Or they can both backdash, or Player 1 can dash forward and Player 2 backdashes and Player 1 can punish Player 2's backdash, or vice versa. Or Player 1 can release into Player 2's focus and backdash, and Player 2 releases and gets punished, or Player 1 dashes forward after releasing and gets hit by Player 2's focus. Or he dashes forward and Player 2 dashes either way and Player 1 can punish. I went and tested a few things, but first of all Player 2 has absolutely no reason to whiff his focus, or even release it at all except as punish on reaction to his opponent's actions. So here's the deal, Player 2 sees Player 1 charge his focus and responds by charging his own and waiting to see what P1 does. P1 now has 5 options: level 3 focus, level 2 focus to forward dash, level 2 focus to backdash, cancel to forward dash, and cancel to backdash. A level 3 focus can always be beaten, on reaction, with a backdash and whiff punish. A level 2 focus into forward dash can always be beaten, on reaction, by P2's focus. A level 2 focus into backdash will cause P2's reaction focus to whiff, making him punishable, but only if the focus is very precisely spaced; for most characters at most spacings P2 can react to P1's level 2 focus with his own focus and punish both forward and backdashes. If P1 cancels into a forward dash P2 probably won't be able to react quite fast enough to punish, but should get frame advantage off his focus to forward dash unless P1 does something risky, like DP. If P1 backdashes P2 can react by foraward dashing, reseting the situation to something close to neutral and gaining ground. So, yeah, there's always some ambiguity to the situation, but it is weighed HEAVILY in P2's favor.
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Apr 29, 2014 06:35
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That's way too simplistic an analysis (there is a LOT of variability in when each player starts their focus and at what range) in general and about half of it just isn't true. Even of the parts that are true, that's assuming the player can always react correctly which is NOT a given. Keep in mind that focus attack ranges vary quite a bit, as can dash distances. There are also responses to focus that guarantee a punish that depend on meter/distance. There's no flowchart you can always follow here, the circumstances are always going to be too different. If you're looking for hard and fast rules I can tell you this is the way it generally plays out in practice: in general P2 should always escape from P1's focus range ASAP. If this is done optimally then P1's only way to bait P2's response is to dash very early, preemptively. This IS a good counter though, as it generally allows a throw attempt that P2 can't release his focus fast enough to stop, and if P2 reacts to P1's forward dash by backdashing P1 can often reaction punish. P2 can deal with P1's bullying guess a number of ways, including very normal stuff like just throwing out pokes (ideally stuff that can beat focus) or jumping. I'd agree that the P2 defender tends to have advantage because of this but that is not a given, especially if P2 is deep enough into P1's range that a single backdash won't escape or if P1's focus range is long enough to be able to harass outside of P2's ideal poke range (gently caress Gen). Note also that even if you escape consistently you're losing ground each time it happens. A patient opponent can use this habit to help force you into the corner. It's always better to hit them out of focus outright if you know you can or are willing to spend meter on the guess (or your character happens to be really good at breaking armor in general).
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Apr 29, 2014 07:16
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Foodahn posted:Assuming I can do it reliably, should I always kara-throw? I'm hearing scary opinions from Japan that Hugo is even worse than vanilla Hakan. Shame because he seems pretty fun to play. I guess they will probably do a round of balancing before the console versions, though. Zingih fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Apr 29, 2014 |
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Apr 29, 2014 08:00
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Static Rook posted:
If your opponent is holding down back after HP xx HP Hayate, you can tick grab them using the LK kara-karakusa. I think this works with any strength Hayate. Kara throwing also works and if they start teching that, counter it with instant air tsurugi for massive damage. If your opponent likes to press buttons, -> LP will beat or trade with a lot of things. It's completely ok for you to be patient and block and bait out a dp after any normal Hayate too!
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Apr 29, 2014 08:26
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What's up with the Ryu side's inputs in this screenshot? Is that a macro or something and is there some point to doing really fast downforward downback inputs when you mash shoryu? I'm kinda baffled. On PC by the way. Edit: oh wait I'm dumb I guess you get that when you hold downback while mashing forward on keyboard... Probably no upsides to that either. Zingih fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Apr 29, 2014 |
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Apr 29, 2014 12:47
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Zingih posted:What's up with the Ryu side's inputs in this screenshot? Is that a macro or something and is there some point to doing really fast downforward downback inputs when you mash shoryu? I'm kinda baffled. On PC by the way. I'm guessing hitbox, holding down the down button and tapping forward and backward, registering only down diagonals.
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Apr 29, 2014 12:52
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Trykt posted:If this is done optimally then P1's only way to bait P2's response is to dash very early, preemptively. Good post but there's one situation I don't see accounted for. If P1 releases quickly (L1/the very start of L2) and catches you in the first few frames of your reaction focus your forward dash leaves you in at negative frames and your backdash is trivially sweepable/throwable. If you needed to zone the other dude to win either outcome is disastrous. gently caress Dudley, gently caress Fei and hoooly poo poo gently caress Gen. I've lost count of the number of times I've focus backdashed random focus and gotten forward thrown all the way to the corner. It might as well wallsplat.
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Apr 29, 2014 14:42
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Zingih posted:What's up with the Ryu side's inputs in this screenshot? Is that a macro or something and is there some point to doing really fast downforward downback inputs when you mash shoryu? I'm kinda baffled. On PC by the way. Downforward -> downback -> downforward again is a DP shortcut, that allows you to DP while remaining crouched the entire time.
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Apr 29, 2014 18:00
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Picked up SSFIV on a whim after watching a bunch of pro fighting game videos and playing some of the older SF games like Alpha 2. I played through the arcade mode on medium (gently caress you Seth and gently caress you too Balrog) and figured that since I've been playing different versions of SF for years I'd have a decent enough grasp on the mechanics to not get completely humiliated in ranked matches. Jesus christ why is everyone in the world better at Street Fighter than I am 
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Apr 29, 2014 19:11
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Just because you played Alpha 3 against the AI on your PS1 when you were a kid doesn't mean you have even the slightest idea on how fighting games work, sorry. You should just remove any notion that you're experienced or know what you're doing right now. Take the viewpoint that, today, you start learning a new rednecked_crake fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Apr 29, 2014 |
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Apr 29, 2014 19:15
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OH NO MAN posted:Picked up SSFIV on a whim after watching a bunch of pro fighting game videos and playing some of the older SF games like Alpha 2. I played through the arcade mode on medium (gently caress you Seth and gently caress you too Balrog) and figured that since I've been playing different versions of SF for years I'd have a decent enough grasp on the mechanics to not get completely humiliated in ranked matches. Dude Fighting games, against human players is actually one of the deepest experiences in a game you can have. Each action is a betting game against what you expect the opponents action to be, and you have to decide and execute on those decisions in less than a second. Against an AI they have very easy patterns or AI defeating moves that they are susceptible to. Beyond that, oftentimes AI difficulty is artificial as they often are designed to read your button inputs, so you cannot actually win unless the AI lets you. NO human can read your inputs, though I do have some suspicions about Justin Wong, but they also will never let you win. On top of all this you have the execution to master, with all of the combos, links, cancels, that poo poo is crazy.
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Apr 29, 2014 19:25
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HoboWithAShotgun posted:Just because you played Alpha 3 against the AI on your PS1 when you were a kid doesn't mean you have even the slightest idea on how fighting games work, sorry. You should just remove any notion that you're experienced or know what you're doing right now. Take the viewpoint that, today, you start learning a new  I don't pretend I know much about fighting games because I've always been a really casual player, I was just venting because losing a million matches in a row got a bit depressing towards the end.  To be fair most of those matches were pretty close ones and I did eventually get a first win, so I'm not totally hopeless. In the words of Ralph Wiggum, "I'm learn-ding!"  edit: also, I know why I keep losing (well, one of the reasons why), it's because I keep trying the same stuff that works against my friends who may or may not have ever played a Street Fighter game before. Also, I get really impatient and try all kinds of stupid overly aggressive poo poo that gets punished by everyone who has the slightest idea what they're doing. Once I calmed down, I started doing much better. DMorbid fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Apr 29, 2014 |
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Apr 29, 2014 19:26
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OH NO MAN posted:It was Alpha 2 on the Saturn, nobody plays 2D fighters on the PS1 You're losing because you're new to competitive fighting games and that's just the way it is. Even people who have been attempting to play for years now still lose all the time. You have to be very critical of your own mistakes and do everything in your power to not make them (learning), while forcing the opponent out of their comfort zone, so they can make mistakes. It looks like you understand that being too aggressive when you don't have a purpose is bad, so keep that in mind the next time you play. Winning because of a reckless action that worked doesn't always mean you're a better player than the other person, it means that you did something super scrubby that worked for once. I would try to avoid doing anything that could be seen as a "hail mary" to improve your decision making skills. Learn plinking. Learn how to crouch tech. Understand option selects and use them if you feel like you need to. Watch match videos. Practice combos in training mode. Rudger fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Apr 29, 2014 |
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Apr 29, 2014 19:46
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OH NO MAN posted:
People are going to tell you loads of game specific stuff, but you're on exactly the right track here, mentally. Understand that there's a lot to learn, slow down, understand the basics and you'll be surprised how fast you get good. Having said that, streetfighter is always gonna hand you some rough matches, 4 has been out for YEARS now, theres a bunch of killers out there 
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Apr 29, 2014 20:03
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Thanks for the advice. I'm really sorry if I came across as " well I can beat the AI on medium, time to get online and show these scrublords how it's done, oh wait I'm losing this game sucks" because I swear that wasn't my intention at all, I just wanted to vent a bit after a bunch of close losses and laugh at myself for how badly I was playing.
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Apr 29, 2014 20:04
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Fenn the Fool! posted:I went and tested a few things, but first of all Player 2 has absolutely no reason to whiff his focus, or even release it at all except as punish on reaction to his opponent's actions. So here's the deal, Player 2 sees Player 1 charge his focus and responds by charging his own and waiting to see what P1 does. P1 now has 5 options: level 3 focus, level 2 focus to forward dash, level 2 focus to backdash, cancel to forward dash, and cancel to backdash. A level 3 focus can always be beaten, on reaction, with a backdash and whiff punish. A level 2 focus into forward dash can always be beaten, on reaction, by P2's focus. A level 2 focus into backdash will cause P2's reaction focus to whiff, making him punishable, but only if the focus is very precisely spaced; for most characters at most spacings P2 can react to P1's level 2 focus with his own focus and punish both forward and backdashes. If P1 cancels into a forward dash P2 probably won't be able to react quite fast enough to punish, but should get frame advantage off his focus to forward dash unless P1 does something risky, like DP. If P1 backdashes P2 can react by foraward dashing, reseting the situation to something close to neutral and gaining ground. Testing these things in training mode is unreliable because you assume they're always reactable when you already know what is going to happen. Saying a level 3 focus can always be beaten, on reaction, discounts the number of times really good players have been hit with level 3 focuses. Saying a focus into forward dash can always be beaten on reaction by releasing your own focus discounts the number of times really good players have backdashed from that situation or not released their focus in time and gotten ultra'd for it. Also, releasing level 1 into dash into the other persons focus is actually preferable, because there's less hitstop and gives the person doing the "counter" focus less time to react. Knowing your options in every situation is great but you're never 100% safe when playing the focus game. There's no 100% answer for either side.
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Apr 29, 2014 20:07
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Kind of reminds me of when I was a kid. "Heh, I can beat the AI on medium, I know everybody's special moves and can beat all these people who have never played the game before. I'm good at Street Fighter!" Then SF4 came out and I got an Xbox and I was in for a huge shock. I didn't even know that a competitive scene even existed until then.
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Apr 29, 2014 20:21
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Gammatron 64 posted:Kind of reminds me of when I was a kid. "Heh, I can beat the AI on medium, I know everybody's special moves and can beat all these people who have never played the game before. I'm good at Street Fighter!" Then SF4 came out and I got an Xbox and I was in for a huge shock. I didn't even know that a competitive scene even existed until then. Hey you live in my city, let me ask you, IS there a competitive scene for Street Fighter out here?
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Apr 29, 2014 20:35
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OH NO MAN posted:Thanks for the advice. I'm really sorry if I came across as " I have a win rate of about 34% in ranked. I lost tons of matches (oftentimes very close) before I started winning. Part of that was switching to a character few play as (Sim) so people aren't sure how to deal with them. For reference, I went from Ken to Sim, though I still main Ken. My highest win streak with Ken is 4, my highest with Sim (still active, actually) is 8. A good portion of this game, in other words, is matchup knowledge. Every character has their quirks, and something that works on one character won't work on another. That includes punishes on unsafe moves, certain combos, ultra punishes, jump-ins, etc. Example: with Sim's ultra one, Yoga Catastrophe, I can get a free mixup on knockdown by using it while out of throw range for many characters. Most have to block; however, this does NOT work on Balrog (EX headbutt has a lot of invincibility and horizontal length and that's a free punish), grapplers (different throw range for command throws, must be back farther), and a few other reversals.
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Apr 29, 2014 20:38
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Madmarker posted:Hey you live in my city, let me ask you, IS there a competitive scene for Street Fighter out here? Greensboro has a few killers floating around, but I don't know if they still have regular sessions anywhere out there. Charlotte is the most active and probably strongest SF scene in NC right now. There's actually a fairly big tournament this Saturday: https://www.facebook.com/events/299104930245028/?ref_newsfeed_story_type=regular ReSe is a monthly/bi-monthly tournament and Tactiks hosts informal sessions all the time. There's strong players in Raleigh and they have regular sessions on Saturdays. Used to have weekly tournies on Wednesdays but the venue closed up shop and they haven't found a replacement venue yet. Hopefully things will pick back up after Ultra hits consoles!
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Apr 29, 2014 21:03
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Speaking of scenes, is there much of one in Seattle? The AE machines at Gameworks have been consistently dead all the times I've been there, and I presume that since Northwest Majors is being held out of town that it's just not a bit SF city or a big FGC area in general.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:10
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Trykt posted:That's way too simplistic an analysis (there is a LOT of variability in when each player starts their focus and at what range) in general and about half of it just isn't true. Even of the parts that are true, that's assuming the player can always react correctly which is NOT a given. Keep in mind that focus attack ranges vary quite a bit, as can dash distances. There are also responses to focus that guarantee a punish that depend on meter/distance. There's no flowchart you can always follow here, the circumstances are always going to be too different. I'm not looking for absolutes, the game is obviously much too complex for that. It kinda got lost back at the start of the conversation, but I'm looking for a rule of thumb for low to mid level players, something along the lines of "if he jumps, use crouching fierce". If you know your opponent only ever uses crouching fierce to AA you can exploit that with particular spacings, some characters have air mobility options that mean you can't reliably AA them with just one move, but in most matchups for most levels of play that is still very solid advice to give someone. From everything I see telling somebody "respond to his focus with your focus" is right along those same lines. It's not optimal in most cases, it doesn't work in some matchups, and it can be beaten by some specific spacings, but if your opponent is carelessly throwing out focuses this is a reliable way to shut him down. Do you agree that this works as good general advice and if not what would you suggest instead?
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Apr 29, 2014 21:12
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Madmarker posted:Hey you live in my city, let me ask you, IS there a competitive scene for Street Fighter out here? You live in Greensboro? Well yeah there is!! It's a little insular and is mostly contained to a facebook group rather than SRK because people on SRK drive everybody crazy. It's generally hosted by a guy named Conrad who is an extremely strong Rufus player and also a really cool guy. Last Friday we had like 15 guys in his apartment. Also, there is an AWESOME video game store \ arcade called Lost Ark Games that will often hold tournaments on Saturdays. They pretty much always have a setup for AE, ST, 3s and will rotate in and out MvC2, Vampire Savior, CvS2, Jojo's, Garou MOTW, Samsho 6 and more. Saturdays are $8, every other day is $5 and all games are set to free play. http://lostarkvideogames.com/ If you give me a PM I can add you to the facebook groups.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:12
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Manoueverable posted:Speaking of scenes, is there much of one in Seattle? The AE machines at Gameworks have been consistently dead all the times I've been there, and I presume that since Northwest Majors is being held out of town that it's just not a bit SF city or a big FGC area in general. I was there for a week in December at the hotel right next door. I went up there usually at what I guessed would be "peak time" almost every night just to see. Even on a Friday and Saturday it was mostly dead. Everyone I did play against was completely awful and didn't know how to play, and the one guy I played who kind of knew what he was doing also wasn't very good. I'm guessing that if there is a scene, it's on consoles at someone's apartment.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:13
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Trykt posted:Greensboro has a few killers floating around, but I don't know if they still have regular sessions anywhere out there. Charlotte is the most active and probably strongest SF scene in NC right now. There's actually a fairly big tournament this Saturday: https://www.facebook.com/events/299104930245028/?ref_newsfeed_story_type=regular Thanks for the write up there, I have a hard time finding anyone to play against other than the internet, and so my skills have definitely become quite rusty. I need to find a good place to get my poo poo kicked in on the regular. Well, here is hoping ULTRA makes everyone active again.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:13
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Nevermind, I just noticed you don't have PMs, but if you want to be added to the facebook groups for Greensboro, you can PM me on twitter (@Gammatron64) or email me at GarrettTRoss at gmail DOT com. Pretty much all the Greensboro FGC stuff is organized through facebook and not SRK. Edit: oh yeah, Geeksboro also does fighting game tournaments occasionally too. This is a pretty good town to be in if you like vidjas with guys punching each other. GET IN THE ROBOT fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Apr 29, 2014 |
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Apr 29, 2014 21:19
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Fenn the Fool! posted:but if your opponent is carelessly throwing out focuses this is a reliable way to shut him down. Do you agree that this works as good general advice and if not what would you suggest instead? A lot of people will just do focus attacks instead of footsies. You try to play footsies, they just focus attack. In this situation, you really don't want to just do something so passive as "then you focus too, and you can backdash away if he holds it." If people are focusing too much, you really want to actually punish it. If you let your opponent get away with overdoing focus, you're not going to be able to throw out pokes since you have no response to it. If you are poking a lot and they are too poo poo to play footsies, they might just start doing focus over and over. You should get close enough to do a two-in-one, or be ready to shoot an EX fireball or some other form of fast armor breaker. A lot of characters can also just raw ultra a focus. I think just jumping away or focusing yourself is fine for an occasional focus, but if your opponent is actually abusing it you need to take advantage of that bad habit. Basically I don't think this is a situation where it's worth agreeing on a go-to response; it's going to vary too much based on character matchups and opponent tendencies.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:24
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systran posted:A lot of people will just do focus attacks instead of footsies. You try to play footsies, they just focus attack. In this situation, you really don't want to just do something so passive as "then you focus too, and you can backdash away if he holds it." If people are focusing too much, you really want to actually punish it. If you let your opponent get away with overdoing focus, you're not going to be able to throw out pokes since you have no response to it. When I play Rog, people who just focus all the time rather than playing footsies drive me nuts and tend to blow me up. If I'm moving back and forth I don't have charge (I can't do like say, cr.mk xx fireball like Ryu) so sometimes I just throw out torpedos and TAPs and try to guess when they're going to focus. This doesn't always work.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:32
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When I mained rog and lived in China, this Sagat in the arcade (who I played basically every night) did that poo poo all the time. My solution was to get in his face at max cr. mp range, and as soon as he focused I just did cr. mp xx dash straight. If I got ultra and was further away (not too far though) I would just raw ultra. Even if you get unlucky and catch them in the air of the backdash, you can still juggle them up. If you're lucky you catch them grounded and get full damage. You really have to focus on punishing that poo poo as rog, otherwise your best poke is getting shut down completely for free.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:37
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Manoueverable posted:Speaking of scenes, is there much of one in Seattle? The AE machines at Gameworks have been consistently dead all the times I've been there, and I presume that since Northwest Majors is being held out of town that it's just not a bit SF city or a big FGC area in general. I believe there's a scene for this around Seattle, just not deep downtown near the Gameworks due to city parking. If you show up and ask around Northwest Majors, you should be able to get more info on where exactly the SF scenes are -- unfortunately I'm only knowledgeable about the airdasher scenes, so I can't help you there. On the side, the reason Northwest Majors moved out of downtown Seattle and to a Des Moines Community College was probably for a few reasons: * Using a community college gives us a much easier time with streaming connections/bandwidth * More room/space available * Much closer to the Airport for our out-of-town visitors
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Apr 29, 2014 21:41
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systran posted:When I mained rog and lived in China, this Sagat in the arcade (who I played basically every night) did that poo poo all the time. My solution was to get in his face at max cr. mp range, and as soon as he focused I just did cr. mp xx dash straight. If I got ultra and was further away (not too far though) I would just raw ultra. Even if you get unlucky and catch them in the air of the backdash, you can still juggle them up. If you're lucky you catch them grounded and get full damage. You really have to focus on punishing that poo poo as rog, otherwise your best poke is getting shut down completely for free. Thanks, I'm going to try and do that some more. I guess it's sorta like doing the Gootecks shimmy, but just not after a couple blocked jabs.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:46
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Gammatron 64 posted:Thanks, I'm going to try and do that some more. I guess it's sorta like doing the Gootecks shimmy, but just not after a couple blocked jabs. It is not like that at all.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:52
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Hillbilly Pharoh posted:It is not like that at all. Uhhh it's a cr.MP xx rush punch but just used to beat a focus instead of using it as a frame trap?
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Apr 29, 2014 21:58
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Fenn the Fool! posted:Do you agree that this works as good general advice and if not what would you suggest instead? If you can only tell them one thing I'd tell them to block. It's good general advice and it's applicable all the way up to high-level play, there's tons of blocked focus in JP matches. Start from blocking, build from there.
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Apr 29, 2014 23:18
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Anyone want to play on PC now? gfwl: systranerror
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Apr 29, 2014 23:44
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My current win percentage in ranked matches: 5.43%  Well, I guess I'm getting slightly better as I can steal the occasional round from rank B dudes. My W:L ratio would probably be less depressing if there were more D/D+ players, but I think it's better to lose against better players than beat up a bunch of other newbies.
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Apr 30, 2014 01:09
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Mio Bison posted:If you can only tell them one thing I'd tell them to block. It's good general advice and it's applicable all the way up to high-level play, there's tons of blocked focus in JP matches. Start from blocking, build from there. Blocking is hard and for scrubs!
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Apr 30, 2014 02:28
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At this point, I feel it'd be more likely for me to learn to throw a hadoken in real life than get any good at this game. I know, accept your losses and learn from them, but after 5 wins and 100 losses this is getting just a tiny bit disheartening. Oh well, back to getting my rear end kicked.
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Apr 30, 2014 11:40
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OH NO MAN posted:At this point, I feel it'd be more likely for me to learn to throw a hadoken in real life than get any good at this game. Post a video of you playing
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Apr 30, 2014 12:24
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systran posted:Post a video of you playing It's really just a matter of practicing more, as almost all these dudes I'm fighting have been playing the game for a long time and know exactly what they're doing. One problem is that just about everyone with a decent connection (I'm in Finland, so I'm mostly stuck fighting other European players) is one of these B/B+/A rank players, so even when I do my best I don't really have that much of a chance to win. There aren't really any low-rank dudes playing or at least the matchmaking isn't finding them, so I just eat loss after loss against the good players and my percentage looks like poo poo.
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Apr 30, 2014 12:47
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