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 Rubix Squid AJ_Impy Lord Cyrahzax ThatBasqueGuy Beerdeer Skyfinder Semquais Flesnolk StrifeHira Lost Season TheMcD NewMars Unwise_Cashew cokerpilot Sparq Horsebanger LJN92 Gyra_Solune HiHo ChiRho Luhood BwenGun Dr karma Blackunknown WeaponGradeSadness Lynneth Aeromancia Ubern00b ChrisAsmadi D3m3 Clayren Emprah Adept Nightingale Talky Dux Supremus GoatLord Hitlers Gay Secret Readingaccount silverpower RZApublican Raserys Patter Song Frozen_flame Pyroi Necroskowitz shirunei Alexey Bguy32 TOTAL: 46  Zikan Frionnel Muskatnuss Amnistar Lord Windy nothing to seehere occipitallobe ManicMarine ZearothK Hutter pointlesspart Sleep of Bronze Meinberg Cestrian DentedLamp DerLeo Ghetto Prince Vander GrabbinPeels WilliamAnderson MarsDragon AdventFalls Soup du Jour ChaosSamusX LordNagash Shogeton MacRomanGuy Fox Ironic shirunei Tevery Best TOTAL: 30  Alikchi YF-23 Rejected Fate Gnooble Freudian Pester TOTAL: 6 Since A has a commanding lead and votes have way slowed down, and I'd like to get as much of the mod done as possible in the three weeks before my new job starts, I'm just going to call it now for A. But such a sweeping change to the powers of the doukes might have some... consequences. There will be some more Senate votes once I have us and our various vassal tags set up, but for now, let's step even further OOC and start thinking about what's going on the rest of the world. I'm just going to steal what Viscardus is doing over in Kingdom in the Sun and have people offer scenarios for what's been happening off the CK2 map, which I'll cull down into two or three scenarios that the thread will vote on. China itself has already entered the story, and since Wealth of Nations is going to introduce lots of new flavor, mechanics, and events for India, the West Indies, etc., I'm going to save that for last. But what about the rest of East Asia? What's Japan up to? How's Korea getting on? Have the Manchu been doing anything cool? In other some LPs, like pretty much every suggestion for Asia revolves around Japan. Well, I have no idea what to do with Japan, so here's your chance to shine! Things to keep in mind: 1.) The "Chinese" tech group is 100% speed, has units as good as western ones, and since starting tech is by tech group and not nation, the whole group will start out a few techs ahead of Eastern/Western/Muslim. So the tags in the region will be technologically advanced, modern states. 2.) I'm looking for something other than "The Ming ate everyone". Without a doubt, the Ming's meteoric rise to power will have affected the history of its neighbors, but I also want the rest of Asia to have viable nations in its own right.
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Apr 29, 2014 23:34
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 18:18 |
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With China the center for learning and power that it is, Japan would have been to it, like Spain was to Portugal. Striking out in the Pacific, the ships of Japan have been exploring and are at the cusp of finding the shores of the distant realm of the Americas. The Mongol presence in East Asia would be nill, either assimilated into china itself, or become pocket kingdoms ruled by chinese generals that never returned home.
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Apr 29, 2014 23:38
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Japan has given up on China and started colonizing the Pacific. Some intrepid Japanese explorers are even saying they could find a route east to Europe.
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Apr 29, 2014 23:48
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Rincewind posted:
Ming's advance into Europe is more of an strategic redeployment, since Korea went into a confederation of sorts with the Manchurians to deal with the Japanese! Things went well for them and now a powerful and compact state blocks Ming's way into the Pacific. The Japanese are a vassal state under the Underdog Confederation and feel very ashamed. On the south, India is chilling out being incredibly peaceful and the Indonesian region is a clusterfuck of sorts.
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Apr 29, 2014 23:53
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The rise of the Ming coincided with the fall of the Mongols. By incorporating the hordes into their empire, the Mings gained access to massive stores of warriors. However, the territories of the Mongols has never been wealthy, and now the Imperial bureaucracy begins to suffer from increasing deficits. Most of East Asia has fallen under the sway of the Ming Empire, but the nation of Korea remains independent. In order to bolster its own forces, the Koreans staged a succesful invasion of Japan, their naval superiority allowing them to blockade the islands. In many ways, the Japanese became analogous to the Mongols, a supply of warriors without as much resources as needed to support them. The comparatively smaller size of Korea and Japan, though, mean that Korea is better able to handle its shortfalls. Unbeknownst to the Korean besiegers, though, the Shogun of Japan and a small army was able to flee from the last unblocked port. They traveled the ocean in search for a land to call their own. In time, they found a massive, largely unsettled island far to the south, inhabited by individuals who were no match for the Japanese elite. And so, Japan has begun to colonize and settle Australia.
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Apr 29, 2014 23:54
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I would like to take another strike at a Japano-Korean state, where Japan invaded Korea at its weakest hundreds of years ago, and now the area is more Japanese than Chinese. A similar fate occurred to the coastal Manchu and the Ainu, and now the Japanese Sea is actually surrounded by Japan. They would still be divided into Daimyos, sure, but still. The other Manchus and the Mongols have either been incorporated into the Chinese state or more or less united in face of Sino-Japanese imperialism. Southern Mongolia could be part of the Ming state, while Northern Mongolia and Inner Manchuria (as well as parts of Sibiria?) could belong to a new Mongchurian state... or whatever that culture would be. Other than that I'd like to point out that considering what the Zheng He of the land have managed, think of what the actual Zheng He could have done. I proclaim Chinese Colonies/Protectorates in Africa, East India, and possibly even the West Coast of America. This could be glorious!
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Apr 30, 2014 00:11
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Meinberg posted:Most of East Asia has fallen under the sway of the Ming Empire, but the nation of Korea remains independent. In order to bolster its own forces, the Koreans staged a succesful invasion of Japan, their naval superiority allowing them to blockade the islands. In many ways, the Japanese became analogous to the Mongols, a supply of warriors without as much resources as needed to support them. The comparatively smaller size of Korea and Japan, though, mean that Korea is better able to handle its shortfalls. Even better, maybe the reason why the Ming were able to be so successful rising up against the Mongols was because the Mongols successfully invaded Japan and had to devote a ton of resources to trying to maintain control over it. Now that they've been kicked off the mainland, Mongol Japan is trying to survive in the face of a hostile Ming and a restless Japanese population, while looking for new targets to invade.
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Apr 30, 2014 00:22
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After the Red Turban Rebellion, China entered a Golden Age under the Ming Dynasty. With the Mandate of Heaven, they swept across much of Central and Northern Asia in their quest to secure the Silk Road. Not only were they a military powerhouse, they were the most sophisticated culture in that half of the world - some would say, the world entire. Domestically, the Ming also turned south, conquering the Indo-China Peninsula. Japan and Korea were cowering, knowing that with the blink of an eye they could be next. Japan had even fended off an expedition once before, being saved only by a typhoon sinking the Chinese fleet. Panicking, Japan turned further east, trying to find new land under the rising sun for the Emperor. And then it all fell apart. Rumors of a great rebellion in the West, led by 'Hungry-Men', shattered the Ming advance. Almost at once, a second great rebellion erupted and nearly ended the Ming Dynasty at its peak. The Neo-Confucianist Vietnamese, the disparate kingdoms of Indonesia, and the self-proclaimed 'Second Coming of Buddha', King of Thailand all rebelled against the Chinese rule. Seeing a moment of weakness, the Japanese and Koreans both declared war on the Ming. What happened was a conflict even greater than the Second Hungarian League War, with the Ming desperate to keep their spoils and everyone else eager to take a slice from the wounded giant. Now the age of crusades is coming to a close, with the Ming at their weakest point since they took power and other powers ascendant in the region. Can China reclaim their Mandate, or will another rising star take hold in this War of the Five Kingdoms? OOC: The Ming are militarily broken and financially broke from their military expeditions, separated either into several vassal states similar to Japan at this point in EU4, or 1453-size European 'states' as a consequence of The Mandate War. Given enough time, the Ming - or another dynasty - can reunite China under the banner of a strong Emperor. This means potential HRE mechanics, with reuniting China tied to one of the last reforms. To reclaim the Mandate of Heaven and TRULY become China re-ascendant, they must avenge their losses. Japan and Korea have united into a dual-empire, the Emperors of Korea and Japan ruling side-by-side. Korea has taken a chunk out of Manchuria, Japan of Taiwan. The Japanese have also begun to colonize Alaska thanks to cooperation with the Ainu Trading Republic, and are looking to go down the California coast. Can the two lines intermarry under the Shinto religion, or will the Koreans fear that they will be the lesser partner forever? The Japanese are certainly intent on converting the Koreans away from Confucius and to the Shinto kami that saved them from the Ming... Ainu and Ryuku are both republics. Ryuku has a chunk of the Phillipines, while Ainu has parts of Eastern Siberia. Both could potentially become economic powerhouses if the Ming and the Japan-Korean Empire doesn't gobble them up. Thailand is ruled by a dictator following a combination of Buddhism and Christianity where Buddha was the Son of God, reincarnating into various lives such as Jesus. Their current king claims he is the latest reincarnation, and religious fervor is high through the land and through the Indonesian kingdoms. Vietnam is a bastion of Confucian teachings, considering the Ming to have failed to fully adhere to the ways of Confucius. They are a minor power, but they start in a strong position. EDIT: A last Mongol horde might had a bit of modern-day Russia. AdventFalls fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Apr 30, 2014 |
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Apr 30, 2014 00:30
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The Ming expanded east at a truly remarkable rate, forging the greatest empire the world had ever known. However, it overextended itself and left itself vulnerable to incursions from outside and to ambitious generals and politicians who began to solidify their own powerbases and expand into the territorys of the raiding Manchurians, Assamese and Tibetans of their own accord. With most of the Chinese army tied up in Spain, the Emperor was forced to make an ever expanding series of concessions, leading to China become the Holy Dragon Empire.
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Apr 30, 2014 00:36
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vyelkin posted:Even better, maybe the reason why the Ming were able to be so successful rising up against the Mongols was because the Mongols successfully invaded Japan and had to devote a ton of resources to trying to maintain control over it. Now that they've been kicked off the mainland, Mongol Japan is trying to survive in the face of a hostile Ming and a restless Japanese population, while looking for new targets to invade. I like this - a world in which Kublai Khan's invasions ultimately succeeded, allowing the establishment of a Yuan dynasty in Japan.
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Apr 30, 2014 00:42
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## Vote B Look, we brought true Christianity to Europe after centuries of darkness. It's clear that our monarch is not just the Emperor of the Romans, but of all of Christendom (a minor distinction, but one that should not even exist). Where there is the Cross, there is Rome, and where there is Rome, there should be the Cross. It falls upon the shoulders of the holder of this great office to be the protector of the faith, preserving the Salvation of Christians from Galicia to Galitzia. That is the extent of our empire, and that is the extent of our duty. OOC: We should be created as the HRE, but with the reforms switched around, at least - Erbkaisertum should be reform #1 and it should already be enacted. Maybe the other reforms should be re-organized to reflect our new status, too, and I'm not sure that revoking the privilegia and renovatio imperii make as much sense in our context. However, most importantly, we should aspire to maintain the title of defender of the faith in perpetuity and use it constantly against any who encroach on the Christian Roman Empire. We should also try to bring as many christian states into the HRE as possible - let them have their local autonomy, as long as it is not infringed upon by heretics or heathens.
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Apr 30, 2014 00:43
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Guh, missed a few things, edited my proposal.
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Apr 30, 2014 00:46
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Meinberg posted:The rise of the Ming coincided with the fall of the Mongols. By incorporating the hordes into their empire, the Mings gained access to massive stores of warriors. However, the territories of the Mongols has never been wealthy, and now the Imperial bureaucracy begins to suffer from increasing deficits.  As funny as Japanese Australia is, I think it makes more sense for them to seize Okinawa and use it as a base from which to plot against the Ming and arm rebels, than to sail 5000 miles south and colonize a desert.
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Apr 30, 2014 00:50
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I like the idea of somehow breaking the Ming into multiple states. Like, 1453 Europe kind of multiple states, not like 'three different kingdoms'. Maybe they overextended with this whole invasion of Europe thing, and broke up into a ton of different little princes and warlords. Could be a wonderful place to use the HRE mechanics, as someone suggested.
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Apr 30, 2014 01:03
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Dibujante posted:## Vote B Too bad you missed the vote.
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Apr 30, 2014 01:09
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Upon see the dangers posed by the Ming giants the Khan of Manchu sought more land to better protect it's independence, this led to Manchu conquering the Korean peninsula and spent the next five years building a fleet to expand unto the island of Japan. With no Divine Wind to protect the Japanese from the massive Manchurian fleet. Soon Japan was overrun and the Emperor was force to abdicate to the Manchurian Khan, who proclaimed himself the Emperor of Manchu, Korea, and Japan: The Qingshin Empire(Can't think of a better name for it, suggestions are appreciated).
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Apr 30, 2014 01:16
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vyelkin posted:I like the idea of somehow breaking the Ming into multiple states. Like, 1453 Europe kind of multiple states, not like 'three different kingdoms'. Maybe they overextended with this whole invasion of Europe thing, and broke up into a ton of different little princes and warlords. I actually like this concept. Someone could flesh this out a bit more, perhaps the nation incorporating the Mongols found itself with a population that was much harder to control than previously expected. It would explain why the Ming conquest happened. Hundreds of years before the invasion China had been absorbing the Huns, and in doing so drastically changing the population of their realm. The confucian teachings weren't adhered to as strongly, and the tengri religion influenced their population heavily. Add in that they never suffered a military defeat and the nation would change to a power hungry group, where succeeding in combat would net you land, power and wealth. Since if China had stopped expanding they would have found a powerful military full of aspiring warriors that wanted to advance their own standings with no new land to conquer, the Emperor was constantly allowing more and more land to be added to the empire. But these military conquests never had time to truly acclimate and be properly absorbed into the nation and with the eastern front collapsing, the nations that previously worked under the chinese emperor found themselves thinking that he had lost the mandate of heaven, and thus the empire was restructured, to ensure that never happened again. Core chinese provences would be governed by confucian rulers, electors that would vet the emperor and ensure that he held the imperial mandate, and that when it was lost it would be found in another ruler.
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Apr 30, 2014 01:16
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vyelkin posted:I like the idea of somehow breaking the Ming into multiple states. Like, 1453 Europe kind of multiple states, not like 'three different kingdoms'. Maybe they overextended with this whole invasion of Europe thing, and broke up into a ton of different little princes and warlords. Hm, I could edit my proposal for that.
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Apr 30, 2014 01:20
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AdventFalls posted:Good poo poo. This, I like this. We should do it.
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Apr 30, 2014 01:26
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AdventFalls posted:Hm, I could edit my proposal for that. It could fit very well I think. Especially if you make the break-off empires part of the Empire, but the nations that own them not part (giving china a CB on them once they get their poo poo together)
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Apr 30, 2014 01:29
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Amnistar posted:It could fit very well I think. Especially if you make the break-off empires part of the Empire, but the nations that own them not part (giving china a CB on them once they get their poo poo together) Maybe upon a certain tech level or upon them regaining certain provinces?
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Apr 30, 2014 01:31
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AdventFalls posted:Maybe upon a certain tech level or upon them regaining certain provinces? If we use the HRE mechanics, you can tie it to one of the imperial reforms. It's already a thing for the current empire.
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Apr 30, 2014 01:34
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Amnistar posted:If we use the HRE mechanics, you can tie it to one of the imperial reforms. It's already a thing for the current empire. Jimmied it in. Hopefully it works.
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Apr 30, 2014 01:36
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theblastizard posted:The Ming expanded east at a truly remarkable rate, forging the greatest empire the world had ever known. However, it overextended itself and left itself vulnerable to incursions from outside and to ambitious generals and politicians who began to solidify their own powerbases and expand into the territorys of the raiding Manchurians, Assamese and Tibetans of their own accord. With most of the Chinese army tied up in Spain, the Emperor was forced to make an ever expanding series of concessions, leading to China become the Holy Dragon Empire. I'd like to expand on this. The Ming conquered Manchuria, the entirety of continental southeast Asia, as well as securing much of the Mongol Steppes and parts of Europe. However it was at the time of Chang Yuchun's death that the new Emperor saw the danger of the new independent generals and their petty fiefdoms (or rather expansive ones, in the case of Chang) and issued what is now known as the Great Recall, an order for all generals of Ming to return with their armies to within the Great Wall and then come to the Emperor to give accountings for all of their actions. It was an attempt by a brilliant Emperor to attempt to preserve the state of Ming as it was, but it was doomed to fail. Most of his generals simply ignored him, and Emperor Zhu Zhanji was forced to take other measures. The generals themselves saw themselves as Ming, he knew, but perhaps only for a generation. Almost six hundred years later, his (though the authorship is occasionally disputed, but there is no doubting it was written in his reign) work 'Preservation of the Middle Kingdom' laid out his plan for ensuring that China did not collapse entirely. Dispatching his own most loyal generals and diplomats to the various military states at the periphery of Ming, he managed to come up with a compromise. Each general would be permitted to rule his territory as he saw fit, provided that they paid tribute and sent men to serve under the Ming Emperor. Most of his generals (with the exception of those few in Europe) agreed to this, and Zhu Zhanji began the steady task of rebuilding the empire. However, he died a year later, leaving control of the empire to an infant child and Empress Zhuang Lie Min. Almost immediately the coin and men stopped coming, and while the generals admitted their fealty was with the Middle Kingdom, they also demanded great concessions of Zhuang Lie Min in order to accept her infant son as Emperor. In return for their acceptance of her son, she would be forced to cede a great deal of the periphery of Ming to other generals (mainly those who served under the various generals of Ming), creating minor feudal states around the edges of the Middle Kingdom. Furthermore, the generals would from now on be permitted to vote on the new Emperor. If the Ming Emperor was not to their liking, they could elect one of their own. Zhuang Lie Min could barely get her own generals to accept her authority, and at one point she was forced to use the newly-autonomous feudal states in order to enforce her will on several of her own rebellious armies. While her son ruled, Ming had been shattered, and it and its conquests were transformed into something barely resembling a state at all.
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Apr 30, 2014 01:54
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After the initial, heroic act of chasing the Yuan forces all the way to Karakorum, torching it, and annexing Inner Mongolia, the Ming resisted the urge to outright annex steppe territory, instead leaving their marauding armies to set up friendly, pliant puppet states. Outer Mongolia and Xinjiang are the Sinicized kingdoms of Dzungharia and Uighurstan, respectively: vassals of the Great Ming. The generals avoided Tibet and its mountains on their march westwards, leaving the Himalayan state unmolested. To the south, the Ming have reestablished the tributary relationship with the Vietnamese, who are the vassal kingdom of Annam. However, the mountainous and jungled lands of southeast Asia past Annam (which rules roughly 20th century North Vietnam) have proven highly resistant. However, Annam proved a great point for staging Zheng He's heroic naval companion to Chang Yuchun's land invasion, and has led to the establishments of the Sinicized kingdoms of Manlejia (Malacca) and Boni (Brunei) in Polynesia. Both states rapidly achieved a degree of independence and were not, in any true sense, vassals, but were nonetheless Sinicized, and states like the mighty Khmer and Majahapit empires as terrible threats. The only other Zheng He-established states were a Sinicized state in Ceylon, viewed with distinct hostility by the rest of India, and Zanzibar, a grandly-named Sinicized Swahili kingdom that contained only the island of Zanzibar,, which the Kilwa Sultanate has set its eyes on reclaiming. The Manchus, the last untamed steppe peoples bordering the Great Ming Empire, have decided that their days are numbered as long as they remain Ming's neighbor, and have begun seriously considering a great migration to Lake Baikal to get away from their overbearing neighbor. (Manchu start out with Exploration ideas). The unity of the Koreans, smashed by the Mongols, never truly reemerged, as the rival states of Silla in the southeast, Baekje in the southwest, and Goguryeo in the north squabble with each other for dominance, each with cores on the other. The fiercely independent Koreans have a set of traditions that make them deeply unpalatable for foreign conquest (heavy core creation penalties) and seem content to adapt to a hermit lifestyle on their peninsula...except for Silla. The bold Sillan sailors are the wonder of East Asia and their explorations far and wide and mighty fleet leave people from Japan to Polynesia terrified of the outsized navy of the tiny Korean principality. Speaking of Japan, the usurpation of the imperial throne by House Fujiwara in the 11th century following an imperial failure to impregnate his Fujiwara wife has led to chaos. The Imperial regime, based in Nara and holding power in the Kyoto/Osaka Kansai region, is opposed by a military dictatorship, a Shogun from Clan Minamoto located in Kamakura. The Kamakura Bakufu counts clans throughout the northern parts of Honshu as its vassals and swears to destroy the imperial court. Both Emperor and Shogun desire to restore Shikoku and Kyushu, which the Mongols held onto despite a major loss at the hands of Clan Hojo in their attempted invasion of Honshu proper two centuries prior. The Mongol states are in a deeply precarious position, as Ming's deeply anti-Mongol attitude has left them open game, and the Emperor and Shogun hope to conquer those islands before an outside power like Silla or Ming has the chance to establish a foothold in Japan in the name of driving out the Mongols.
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Apr 30, 2014 02:57
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I for one like the idea of a fragmented China using the HRE system. I'd personally like to see an Ainu state. Perhaps this could have gotten kicked off by having the Song or Tang Dynasty make the Ainu/Emishi a tributary state way back in the 700s before the Japanese rolled over Tohoku. It's not like they weren't aware of them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emishi#Envoys_to_the_Tang_court). When the Mongols took over some die-hard loyalists fled to the region which helped advance the natives and better resist the Japanese in the centuries to come.
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Apr 30, 2014 03:30
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Too bad you missed the vote. I've been really, really busy at work lately 
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Apr 30, 2014 03:38
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As the Ming Empire rose to power in East Asia, driving out the Mongols and securing the Silk Road trade, many have taken one of three paths in their relations with the Chinese. The first path is the Path of Submission and Tribute. Tibet, Korea, the Dai Viet dynasty, the Manchus, the peoples of Zunghar, the Japanese Emperor, and the defeated Mongols have sworn allegiance to the Ming Empire, becoming vassals and/or allies of the Ming and sharing in the wealth, high degree of learning, and prosperity. Because of the secure Silk Road, the people of Zunghar have become excellent merchants and traders, following the model of other successful states like the late Somali Republic and Malacca. The Japanese Emperor is the odd man out in that while reclaiming himself as the sovereign of Japan, the northern Daimyo are opposed to his ascent and have effectively broken off and cut the island nation into two, the southern half ruled by the Emperor and allied to the Ming and the northern half militarized, isolationist, and looking to bring the Emperor back down to a figurehead. (Mechanically: Ming China has eaten some parts of Mongolia, southern Manchuria, northern Indochina, a province or two of eastern Tibet, and has vassalized everyone mentioned save the Japanese Empire, who are allied with the Ming. The Xinjiang region is home to a Merchant Republic that has ideas related to the Silk Road trade. Most Daimyo have moved north, taking Hokkaido and Sakhalin, with Imperial Japan controlling the southern half up to Kyoto. No Shogunate system is in place.) The second path is the Path of Defiance. For many reasons, these nations have declared themselves strictly opposed to Chinese, and while not all are allies share a common perceived enemy. The main power is the Kingdom of the Thunder Dragon, Bhutan, controlling territory from its mountain fortress capital in the Himalayas to the the shores of the bay of Bengal, with allied states to the South-East. The secondary power is the realm of the great Pirate King, sarcastically referred to by the Chinese and their allies as the "Wokou Emperor," taking up base in Taiwan and controlling territory from the Ryukyu Islands to the northern Philippines, and eyes on uniting the island nations of South-East Asia against China. The third power of defiance is the Malacca Republic, taking notes from their Somali trading partners on the opposite side of India and using their wealth gained from trade to secure their borders against Chinese interference, lest they end up like Somalia did, and while not a friend to the nations of the Bhutanese alliance or especially not the Wokou "Empire" will side with them over the Ming any day. (Mechanically: Bhutan controls territory like mentioned, taking pieces out of what would be Bengal and having HRE-ish alliances with the states up to those bordering Dai Viet, Bhutan being the Austria of the group with related ideas. Can form a united nation across Indochina if enough Reforms pass like the HRE. Taiwan is colonized and either a Ryukyuan or new "Wokou" culture nation would have territory like what's mentioned, heavily Navy-focused National Ideas and and able to colonize, with missions concerned over things like taking Hong Kong, conquering/colonizing some island nations/territories, generally pissing off China, etc. Malacca becomes the Somalia of the East [minus the fracturing], Merchant Republic, ideas centered on trade and keeping out China and so forth.) The final path is the Path of Flight. Unwilling to surrender to Ming Authority but unable to successfully resist them, they have fled, looking for better lives in lands abroad. Mongols who would not accept submission fled as far south as possible with Polynesian sailors, coming upon the Islands of the Great Birds, and after initial conflict with the native inhabitants have settled into a sense of stability, but fiercely determined to keep their independence. Japanese Buddhists leaving the conflict between the Emperor and the viciously militant Daimyo traveled east, following along the Kuroshio Current to a new continent, becoming a one of the tribes of this New World. Their Buddhist teachings have influenced some of the neighboring tribes, the rice crops they brought over have been grown successfully in some regions and even become a favorite crop among some western Mexica people, and the few cannons smuggled from the Chinese have drastically changed the face of the larger powers in the New World, even traveling to a southern land almost unknown to them. (Mechanically: A couple Mongol and/or Maori-Mongol hybrid culture provinces in New Zealand, nation is HELLA defensive. Should be able to colonize the rest of New Zealand and possibly Australia. If not Maori-Mongol hybrid then a Maori nation on the opposite part of New Zealand as a rival, possibly? For the Buddhist Nihon tribe they'd operate like a slightly beefed up OPM Native American tribe starting in the West coast, with a Rice as their starting resource. The closest tribes will either have Buddhist rulers or Buddhist subjects. Rice will also be found in some parts of the Mississippi and in one western Aztec province. Aztecs, Zapotec, Maya, and Inca are High American tech group but not the giant CK2 import Empires. Other nations in Siberia, maybe?) StrifeHira fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Apr 30, 2014 |
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Apr 30, 2014 03:53
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We have been lied to. The reasons the Ming Frontier advanced so far west and was so strong? It wasn't an expeditionary force. It was everything they had left. The Ming were migrating, and have had to abandon their homeland, presently occupying much of central Asia and northern India. In their stead, the mighty Choseon of Korea have swept in, their fearsome Turtle Ships dominating the coast as far south as the Indochinese peninsula. The Manchu have been displaced west and south, warring with shattered remnants of Ming successor states trying vainly to hold their realms in the face of the Choseon advance.
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Apr 30, 2014 08:35
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As much as I am fond of the idea of the Holy Ottoman Empire, if we indeed go the route of 'all this Ming stuff was desperate, incredibly draining, likely migratory invasion instead of conquest' and China's collapsed entirely, the HRE would probably be better suited there.
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Apr 30, 2014 08:45
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I personally like the idea of having a rival behemoth looming over us as we expand into the future, wherever the known world goes China will be watching.  Also a tale of Japanese sailors discovering an untamed land to the far east, and an exotic vulcanic island in the middle of the great ocean! Who knows what wonders they'll find? And with wonders I hope a giant Inca/Aztec empire that lords unitedly over the Southern America's locked in an eternal struggle with the Indian tribes of the north over the small straight known as Panama, where war has turned into tradition and every decade an event known as the great push occurs where the two empires pitch everything they have to gain ground on the other through the great land bridge. (since their naval tech is non existent) I hope the America's and the east hold some great and terrifying secrets!
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Apr 30, 2014 09:28
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I like the idea of mega-China too, a grand nation, overseeing the world's progress.
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Apr 30, 2014 09:48
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While China sent half a million men to liberate the Silk Road from the Mongol yoke following the Red Turban rebellion, it focused the rest of its military strength into destroying the rest of the Mongol and steppe nomad states in the north and the north-west. Through great pains they managed to defeat all the Khans and established authority over the nomads. In the decades that followed the nomadic cultures were invariably oppressed and suppressed, and the lands thought to be pacified and sinicised. The Ming state itself spent the time licking the wounds left from the costly campaigns against the Mongols. Despite messages to the frontier for the return of unneeded armies to the homeland going unanswered, the Ming military's strength gradually restored, and by 1440 was strong enough for the Emperor to launch a campaign in Indochina to restore Chinese overlordship over Viet and conquer the surrounding kingdoms. But at the same time the destruction of the Mongols had been overestimated in scale; with the Frontier army completely destroyed and the new majority of the Ming army bogged down in Vietnam the remaining, aged retainers of the Mongol Khans formed a council and made a unified bid for independence. Though Chinese occupation had more or less managed to eliminate the more "barbaric" aspects of the nomads, this would now come back to haunt them. For the Mongols and the people of the steppes were still masters of the horse, and were able to combine that traditional strength with advanced Chinese artillery. Using smaller pieces the Mongols were thus able to devise a new, smaller type of horse-carried artillery whose mobility, while not of any use in sieges, would provide a significant edge on the battlefield. So the Ming find themselves in a very problematic situation; their manpower reserves have been largely depleted in order to rebuild their army following the Red Turban rebellion and the campaigns against the Mongol states (as well as the massive frontier expedition), and have invested that new force in an attempt to subjugate the Indochinese kingdoms. Despite initial successes and occupation of the northern Vietnamese provinces, they are falling victims to their earlier victories as the Mongol lands, partially sinicised and having made their own innovations on Chinese artillery are in revolt, opening a new front along the entirety of the northern Chinese border.
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Apr 30, 2014 12:04
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AJ_Impy posted:We have been lied to. The reasons the Ming Frontier advanced so far west and was so strong? It wasn't an expeditionary force. It was everything they had left. The Ming were migrating, and have had to abandon their homeland, presently occupying much of central Asia and northern India. In their stead, the mighty Choseon of Korea have swept in, their fearsome Turtle Ships dominating the coast as far south as the Indochinese peninsula. The Manchu have been displaced west and south, warring with shattered remnants of Ming successor states trying vainly to hold their realms in the face of the Choseon advance. This is fun, Korea never seems to get any love. Let Vietnam be the morass the sucked the Chinese in and spat out bones until the Ming splintered and cracked, with the Ming Frontier as rebels who fled west for easier pickings after Korea saw an opening and took it.
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Apr 30, 2014 12:43
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Mainland China is fragmented between warring dynasties - the central authority of the Ming collapsed shortly after they wrested power from the Mongols, yet they still retain power in the North with the Mongol Khanate/Oirat Horde/Manchu as vassal states. The Western Ming, led by a break-away general is a separate polity all together - bringing Chinese methods of government and culture to the West, but separate from the main Chinese civilisation. Japan remains under the Shogunate system, and as such remains divided - there is a chance for colonial greatness in the future, but for now Japan still remains a minor power, to fractured by warring feudal lords to act as unified entity. Korea maintains a sizable power base on the Korean peninsular itself, safe from the knowledge that they won't necessarily be immediately absorbed by an all-powerful unified Chinese state. There is ample opportunity for expansion into the northern Manchu plains, but any conflict in that region will require war against the Rump-Ming, though the Manchus may not necessarily be in a vassal relationship with them for long... The Malayan powers, however - are booming: Ayutthaya in Indo-China has dominated the Western reaches of Burma, whilst Khmer, Dai Viet and Lan Xang divide the rest of the peninsular between them. Brunei dominates the islands however, and maintains itself as a Thallassocratic maritime power. The spread of the ideology of Jainism, in its fabled journey to the Far East only found practitioners in the Bruneian court, and as such transformed the power into one only willing to war for financial gain, never territory. (Could be fun with 'Eastern' protectorates established by Brunei in India). The Southern Continent of Australia, however lies dormant - but in the nearby islands of Aotearoa, a new civilisation is stirring. A powerful Brunei allowed the flourishing of trade to this new continent, and whilst it remains unlikely that Brunei has established any control of the region in the early 1400s, the maintenance of trade has led to the development of a more technologically advanced, and more assertive Māori people. (Since Chinese tech is now 100% western essentially, Aotearoan technology can take the slot previously filled by the vanilla Chinese tech, and act as a potential power in the south should they westernise through Bruneian proximity). The Māori remain confined to the Northern Aotearoan island, yet the possibility for a new power to arise in the South could also come to pass. tldr: please include Aotearoa in New Zealand pretty please 
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Apr 30, 2014 15:40
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Averrences posted:tldr: please include Aotearoa in New Zealand pretty please A race of sentient Kiwi's have risen in the late age under a mighty pretender. The lord of the Rings, is giant of cinematographic heritage given cult status by the previous pantokrator. It has realized the aspirations of the other pretenders and will protect its subjects by donning the mantle of godhood.
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Apr 30, 2014 19:27
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I would really much rather see the Ming carry over into the new game as a huge force and not quietly shattered off-screen, personally. Kinda cheapens eventually taking them down ourselves otherwise...!
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Apr 30, 2014 19:34
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Adept Nightingale posted:I would really much rather see the Ming carry over into the new game as a huge force and not quietly shattered off-screen, personally. Kinda cheapens eventually taking them down ourselves otherwise...! ^^^ This. I'd hate to see Ming any smaller than usual in EU4, totally unhindered. It's China's world, we just live in it.
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Apr 30, 2014 19:54
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Patter Song posted:^^^ Remember that unlike in EUIV proper, china isn't going to be fettered by a lovely tech growth causing problems, they're going to be at 100% tech level. If we make china the size that it is in EUIV it is very likely that we will find ourselves in a situation that isn't fun to play in.
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Apr 30, 2014 20:36
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 18:18 |
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Adept Nightingale posted:I would really much rather see the Ming carry over into the new game as a huge force and not quietly shattered off-screen, personally. Kinda cheapens eventually taking them down ourselves otherwise...! It's really funny how often we hear 'Don't let the player nation blob or the story will be boring!' and then when there's a large, dangerous other nation we get a bazillion different 'please destroy this ahistorical horde!' cries.  The Ming have earned this one.
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Apr 30, 2014 20:49
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