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Fried Chicken posted:Oklahoma City bombing and Unabomber was what triggered the 96 drop off. Being in a militia got you a hard look from the authorities and your neighbors. Then Bush was in office, and it stayed low/dropped further because the president wasn't a democrat and because groups like the minutemen ma have been militias but they were anti Hispanic militias not anti government ones. Hmmm so if it wasn't government persecution of innocent patriot groups then why is it that now? What's different??
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May 1, 2014 20:41
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Two Finger posted:OBAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! Well, there's additional layers too. Keep in mind all this is happening out West, too, so that's an additional layer of Old West mythology, too. (And keep in mind that most of the old west gunfights, like the O.K. Corral, etc., had their roots in Civil War aftermath). Crazy like this takes a couple hundred year's worth of history to ferment up.
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May 1, 2014 20:42
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Any good clips from RT about the Bundy poo poo? "Armed separatists continue their hold out in the remote province of Nevada"
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May 1, 2014 20:44
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Two Finger posted:What in the absolute gently caress is wrong with your country? American society is in crisis in any number of ways and huge numbers of people are stressed and worried about the future. Many of them don't understand quite what's happening or what is causing it, and it becomes a kind of Rorschach test. Basically groups like the Tea Party are reacting to a real problem (a period of stressful economic insecurity for anybody below the top quintile of earners) it's just that they can't remotely identify what it is or how to resolve it. But if you're a bigot and a knee-jerk reactionary and you're predisposed against the government, minorities, black people, etc. you know who to blame. The fact that the president is a black guy is a sign of the times to you. Then there's a hard fringe of downright nutcases--freemen on the land, posse comitatus nuts, open white supremacists, etc.--who are always with us in a marginal way but when you have a lot of people shopping around for totalizing explanations as to what is happening they're right there with their pamphlets and websites. I'm sure those people are around in New Zealand as well, but given you were also just crowing about your society that actually functions they're not the same kind of problem because they don't have an audience.
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May 1, 2014 20:49
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I was masturbating over the idea of Abrams rolling in and wrecking their poo poo but really the authorities absolutely made the right move in backing off. The fact that these people are turning on each other now proves it. I mean let's face it militias are filled with various types of unstable wackos looking for any and all reason to become violent, its only natural that if the feds wont give them a reason to become martyrs then they will find one amongst themselves. The only problem is that there are children in their group and I don't really see any good outcomes for them  I guess we can hope they just get bored or run out of money and go home but I don't know if the odds are good of that happening.
Axetrain fucked around with this message at 20:55 on May 1, 2014 |
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May 1, 2014 20:49
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Axetrain posted:I was masturbating over the idea of Abrams rolling in and wrecking their poo poo but really the authorities absolutely made the right move in backing off. The fact that these people are turning on each other now proves it. I mean let's face it militias are filled with various types of unstable wackos looking for any and any reason to become violent, its only natural that if the feds wont give them a reason to become martyrs then they will find one amongst themselves. The only problem is that there are children in their group and I don't really see any good outcomes for them The best outcome for the children is that they are tracking all the parents there, and CPS will take custody of them as soon as they leave the ranch and are more easily detained.
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May 1, 2014 20:52
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Axetrain posted:I was masturbating over the idea of Abrams rolling in and wrecking their poo poo but really the authorities absolutely made the right move in backing off. The fact that these people are turning on each other now proves it. I mean let's face it militias are filled with various types of unstable wackos looking for any and all reason to become violent, its only natural that if the feds wont give them a reason to become martyrs then they will find one amongst themselves. The only problem is that there are children in their group and I don't really see any good outcomes for them me too man, I was reallly smacking my lips and rubbing my thighs at this, send in the tanks
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May 1, 2014 20:56
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A shooting war between nuts and the national guard is like a nightmare scenario that nothing good will come from.
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May 1, 2014 20:57
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You also have to keep in mind that America is large enough that something sensational can happen and 95% of the populace would not have any direct link to it. The closest analogue for most in the developed world is that just because Hungary or Greece is full of Nazis, it doesn't mean that you as a (eg ) Frenchman have any real connection to the situation.
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May 1, 2014 20:57
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This is only being allowed to happen because they are mostly white christian rednecks, right? I mean any other shade of color or religion gets Wacoed, correct? I just can't imagine this being allowed to happen if it was a group of heavily armed hispanics protesting the bullshit anti-hispanic laws in Nevada.
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May 1, 2014 20:59
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EvanSchenck posted:American society is in crisis in any number of ways and huge numbers of people are stressed and worried about the future. Many of them don't understand quite what's happening or what is causing it, and it becomes a kind of Rorschach test. Basically groups like the Tea Party are reacting to a real problem (a period of stressful economic insecurity for anybody below the top quintile of earners) it's just that they can't remotely identify what it is or how to resolve it. But if you're a bigot and a knee-jerk reactionary and you're predisposed against the government, minorities, black people, etc. you know who to blame. The fact that the president is a black guy is a sign of the times to you. The problem is that even when times are great you have this kind of stuff as well.
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May 1, 2014 20:59
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LorneReams posted:This is only being allowed to happen because they are mostly white christian rednecks, right? I mean any other shade of color or religion gets Wacoed, correct? Oh yeah. The government literally used an air strike when black people tried this in 1985 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE
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May 1, 2014 21:02
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LorneReams posted:This is only being allowed to happen because they are mostly white christian rednecks, right? I mean any other shade of color or religion gets Wacoed, correct? It's largely allowed to happen because of Waco/Ruby Ridge. There's no benefit to openly confronting these dudes, because what will happen is a whole bunch of people will get killed and then a whole bunch of people will get fired. Basically, if you just wait it out, it usually turns out that one of the figures involved is a huge loving racist and that will turn public opinion against him and then you can just quietly do what you were going to do in the first place.
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May 1, 2014 21:03
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Fried Chicken posted:Oh yeah. The government literally used an air strike when black people tried this in 1985 Also the Black Panthers showing up to the scenes of arrests with weapons in hand to protest police brutality and California's sudden surge of gun control laws
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May 1, 2014 21:04
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If they actually get serious about this whole rebellion and shooting breaks out, who do you send in? FBI? The National Guard? Wouldn't it be Nevada controlling the National Guard if its an in-state rebellion? They won't actually start a rebellion.
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May 1, 2014 21:04
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zoux posted:A shooting war between nuts and the national guard is like a nightmare scenario that nothing good will come from. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9nEf2nuH_Xc
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May 1, 2014 21:04
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Historically that stuff goes hand in hand with economic downturns. When people can readily make a good living and derive some self-respect and satisfaction from their livelihood, they could really give two shits about joining some stupid militia. When people are all depressed and aimless from not finding any work in years, the acceptance and camaraderie and sense of purpose of militias and poo poo has way more appeal.
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May 1, 2014 21:05
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The-Mole posted:Historically that stuff goes hand in hand with economic downturns. When people can readily make a good living and derive some self-respect and satisfaction from their livelihood, they could really give two shits about joining some stupid militia. When people are all depressed and aimless from not finding any work in years, the acceptance and camaraderie and sense of purpose of militias and poo poo has way more appeal. No? Economically the 50s and the 90s were both great and you saw huge upswings in this crap then Edit: yeah the 50s economy was only really great for white men but that's who this is so it still applies
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May 1, 2014 21:06
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Lote posted:If they actually get serious about this whole rebellion and shooting breaks out, who do you send in? FBI? The National Guard? Wouldn't it be Nevada controlling the National Guard if its an in-state rebellion? National Guard I assume would be used to put down a bona fide rebellion. The actual US Military is forbidden from police action in the US, so if it came to that, we'd be in a full on civil war.
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May 1, 2014 21:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Every nation seems to have a founding myth and a founding sin. Just like in New Zealand the founding myth is intrepid colonists and the founding sin is ecological catastrophe with the introduction of non-native species, in America the founding myth is justified rebellion against government authority and the founding sin is slavery and racism. This is a fascinating way to look at it. Also go ahead and put me on that list for emigrating to New Zealand. A Winner is Jew posted:The fact that the US Government hasn't just dropped a few drone strikes on these chuckle fucks and then gone to lunch is all the proof you need that the government isn't some tyrannical entity out to enslave or oppress them. The main base that runs UAVs is just north of Vegas and they do all of their training locally in Nevada ranges. It would be very very easy. I do wonder if they're using this opportunity to do surveillance training with the drones.
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May 1, 2014 21:07
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The-Mole posted:Historically that stuff goes hand in hand with economic downturns. When people can readily make a good living and derive some self-respect and satisfaction from their livelihood, they could really give two shits about joining some stupid militia. When people are all depressed and aimless from not finding any work in years, the acceptance and camaraderie and sense of purpose of militias and poo poo has way more appeal. Come to the Freep thread. Our lovely hovel will tell you exactly why that militia number shot up recently.
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May 1, 2014 21:08
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The-Mole posted:Historically that stuff goes hand in hand with economic downturns. When people can readily make a good living and derive some self-respect and satisfaction from their livelihood, they could really give two shits about joining some stupid militia. When people are all depressed and aimless from not finding any work in years, the acceptance and camaraderie and sense of purpose of militias and poo poo has way more appeal. Which I guess could be why you don't really see this kind of thing happening in New Zealand. We have traditionally had a healthy economy (well, mostly) but more importantly social welfare ensures no one falls too far.
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May 1, 2014 21:08
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Relentlessboredomm posted:This is a fascinating way to look at it. Also go ahead and put me on that list for emigrating to New Zealand. It would be monumentally stupid to send a drone, armed or not, anywhere near these people.
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May 1, 2014 21:09
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Demon Of The Fall posted:me too man, I was reallly smacking my lips and rubbing my thighs at this, send in the tanks I was using hyperbole there, my point was that outside of fantasizing about these white supremacist militias getting their comeuppance it would in reality be very stupid to engage them.
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May 1, 2014 21:09
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Lote posted:If they actually get serious about this whole rebellion and shooting breaks out, who do you send in? FBI? The National Guard? Wouldn't it be Nevada controlling the National Guard if its an in-state rebellion? Lucky for Bundy, he's not trying to take over a college campus. 
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May 1, 2014 21:11
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zoux posted:National Guard I assume would be used to put down a bona fide rebellion. The actual US Military is forbidden from police action in the US, so if it came to that, we'd be in a full on civil war. Fun fact, the GOP amended the insurrection act in 2006 (as part of the 2007 NDAA) to gut the posse commitatis portions. Dems restored the original with the 2008 NDAA
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May 1, 2014 21:11
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Two Finger posted:What in the absolute gently caress is wrong with your country? The US is very large and has a festering underbelly of individuals who don't integrate with increasingly urban world and its inhabitants, have access to media which reinforces their beliefs unquestioningly, and feel as though they're losing all power and place in the world. Then you mix in a little gun culture and absolutely abhorrent mental healthcare in the US and presto.
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May 1, 2014 21:12
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Lote posted:If they actually get serious about this whole rebellion and shooting breaks out, who do you send in? FBI? The National Guard? Wouldn't it be Nevada controlling the National Guard if its an in-state rebellion? People shouldn't assume anything other than Bundy wanted to start a Waco styled standoff. There's no reason a rational human being would remotely risk an armed confrontation with the BLM, then go on to use every right wing talking point ever on television. Even if that weren't the case, a significant population of this country is a pack of old fucks who responded to the 2008 by becoming increasingly reactionary. They'll take any ill news as an excuse to get violent.
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May 1, 2014 21:12
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zoux posted:It would be monumentally stupid to send a drone, armed or not, anywhere near these people. They wouldn't see it. The sensors on those things are terrifyingly powerful. You could easily sit at 30k ft or go at night. That said, I don't think they'd do that. The other agencies that have drones I can't speak for.
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May 1, 2014 21:13
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Off topic but is Piketty's Capital going to tell me anything I don't already know or is it just going to make me Real Mad?
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May 1, 2014 21:13
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Welcome to the United States of Untreated Mental Illness
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May 1, 2014 21:13
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Magres posted:Also the Black Panthers showing up to the scenes of arrests with weapons in hand to protest police brutality and California's sudden surge of gun control laws Sometimes I wish the Black Panthers would have a resurgence and openly flaunt the new open carry laws in various states. It'd be interesting to see how quickly 2nd amendment rights issues fall by the wayside.
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May 1, 2014 21:15
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Job Truniht posted:People shouldn't assume anything other than Bundy wanted to start a Waco styled standoff. There's no reason a rational human being would remotely risk an armed confrontation with the BLM, then go on to use every right wing talking point ever on television. Regardless of whether or not this is correct, and I suspect it is with regards to Bundy himself, the danger comes from any more-unhinged-than-usual individuals within the militia which has coalesced around him. From that article a couple pages back, it seems likely at least a few of them genuinely want to start dropping blue helmets, or at least get worked up that way very easily.
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May 1, 2014 21:15
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zoux posted:National Guard I assume would be used to put down a bona fide rebellion. The actual US Military is forbidden from police action in the US, so if it came to that, we'd be in a full on civil war. Full on civil war or full on black people, whichever.
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May 1, 2014 21:15
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zoux posted:Off topic but is Piketty's Capital going to tell me anything I don't already know or is it just going to make me Real Mad? Depends how much you know about history. I find the book doesn't make me mad, so much as the responses, like the one from the economist today that is basically "yeah he is right but don't you dare redistribute" By the way, TNC finally wrote about Sterling and he doesn't disappoint (starts with a Joker reference and rolls from there). http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/05/This-Town-Needs-A-Better-Class-Of-Racist/361443/
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May 1, 2014 21:16
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Fried Chicken posted:Lets not kid ourselves here, vengeance has always been part of the justice system and with good reason - that is part of the point. The justice system isn't just about rehabilitation and making sure it doesn't happen again, it is about making the victim feel satisfied with what happened, so they don't saddle up and take their own revenge. The whole codification of law grew out of the idea that you could end the cycle of violence by having an impartial system that did it, rather than having tons of blood feuds. No small part of the legitimacy of the justice system comes from people feeling that they have had revenge, that the person who wronged them has been punished. When you see the "affluenza" kid, or Roman Polanski, or the DuPont family baby rapist, or the wall street banksters get away without being punished, you feel like the system is broken even if those people never break the law again. Vengeance is an intrinsic part of the justice system, and the only way it won't be is if we ever completely change what it is to be human so we don't feel the need for revenge any more. Catching up with the thread so this is hella late, but this is really the opposite of my experience with the criminal system. Its a system that goes out of its way to minimize the victim or victim's family ability to influence events, or to have any sort of satisfactory feeling pending the conclusion of a particular legal matter. It shoves them out of the prosecution, who's free to prosecute or deny based on their own needs and wants, leaving many victims disillusioned and confounded. Just my experience and/or reading.
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May 1, 2014 21:16
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Chard posted:Just gonna print out GBS highlights and carry em around while I go shopping. It's my right, you can't get offended! Get a t-shirt printed, it's the same as open carry.
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May 1, 2014 21:18
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Fried Chicken posted:Depends how much you know about history. I googled it to see the price on Amazon and the first link was to a Forbes story saying "Seven reasons why Piketty's Capital doesn't hold up". Also enough with the mobile links!!!!!!
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May 1, 2014 21:18
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zoux posted:Off topic but is Piketty's Capital going to tell me anything I don't already know or is it just going to make me Real Mad? The second one. That books way more useful as a long term argument assist tool since he's a virtually unimpeachable expert on the subject (god knows they'll try), but if you've been smart enough to already realize that the system as it is currently fucks anyone that hasn't already gotten theirs it won't really teach you anything new.
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May 1, 2014 21:19
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Axetrain posted:I was masturbating over the idea of Abrams rolling in and wrecking their poo poo but really the authorities absolutely made the right move in backing off. The fact that these people are turning on each other now proves it. I mean let's face it militias are filled with various types of unstable wackos looking for any and all reason to become violent, its only natural that if the feds wont give them a reason to become martyrs then they will find one amongst themselves. The only problem is that there are children in their group and I don't really see any good outcomes for them This is oddly synchronicitic with the Nietzsche I was just reading... The Antichrist, Chapter 53, HL Mencken trans. posted:—It is so little true that martyrs offer any support to the truth of a cause that I am inclined to deny that any martyr has ever had anything to do with the truth at all. In the very tone in which a martyr flings what he fancies to be true at the head of the world there appears so low a grade of intellectual honesty and such insensibility to the problem of “truth,” that it is never necessary to refute him. I mean, even down to the response of ignoring it and refusing to let them die for their cause. Is Eric Holder the Antichrist? 
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May 1, 2014 21:22
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