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In regards to Anna, it's actually possible to avoid killing her entirely by exploiting her AI. The game still considers her dead after this point, so it's really only worth doing if you're going for a 'pure' pacifist run. I think you can also force her to run by doing enough damage to her, but I might be remembering wrong.
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Apr 28, 2014 20:53
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The theme for UNATCO Return is one of my all time favourite video game songs, for whatever reason. For me it captures both the excitement and bittersweetness of the escape. The UNATCO basement revelation is a great twist if Paul isn't alive to spoil it for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0IsK2C8SNo
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Apr 28, 2014 21:32
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I'm still at around page 15 in the thread, but was this TED talk about augmentation posted already? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDsNZJTWw0w&t=522s Human augmentation is making some interesting leaps that I didn't actually know about until now.
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Apr 28, 2014 22:14
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People usually tend to focus on expensive new gadgets when talking about bionics and implants and poo poo, but great advances are being made in making stuff like that cheaper, too. A couple of researchers at my university are working on making a cheap electrostimulation device that would allow people with nerve damage in their arms to have a limited degree of control over the limb. There's plenty of stuff like that already made, but the idea here is to make it cheap enough to be affordable to poor(ish) hospitals and people and reliable enough not to need frequent replacement. I wanted to get in on the action (as much as possible for an automation student with little knowledge of biomedical engineering), but then we got buried with regular projects and I focused on other things. 
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Apr 28, 2014 22:40
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Something not shown in the video is that after Manderley tells you to make your escape, when you go to leave his office he pulls a gun and tries to kill you. He's a bit of a snake. It's still weird to me seeing Paul alive in this part of the game; this is the first time seeing that, for me.
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Apr 29, 2014 02:25
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Attestant posted:The theme for UNATCO Return is one of my all time favourite video game songs, for whatever reason. For me it captures both the excitement and bittersweetness of the escape. The UNATCO basement revelation is a great twist if Paul isn't alive to spoil it for you. The introductory rattle, like a rattlesnake. And then the rest is just a song about, holy poo poo I'm back in the UNATCO bunker. And now someone's going to have to die.
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Apr 29, 2014 05:31
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I just noticed this LP, and marathoned it to see what all the fuss was about for Deus Ex. Thanks for showing it off, Bobbin, you've been doing an amazing job. I've been loving your Corners as well; they've been pretty helpful for understanding all the background information for the game itself. A lot of love went into the game, and you're doing it justice. I've been wondering, however - where do you do all the research for this? I just finished Lecture 6, and I'd like to see some of the stuff you've quoted about immunization. My own folks were against the idea, so I'm curious about the other side of the argument.
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Apr 29, 2014 06:04
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J.theYellow posted:Also, if you stun the MiB in the control center of the nanotech lab, he's got an upgrade canister on him. Hard to pull that one off without anyone noticing, though, and that's actually something from the previous video. I just checked this, and while the MiB has a key for those shelves in the nanotech lab, he does not have a canister. Twib posted:I just noticed this LP, and marathoned it to see what all the fuss was about for Deus Ex. Thanks for showing it off, Bobbin, you've been doing an amazing job. I've been loving your Corners as well; they've been pretty helpful for understanding all the background information for the game itself. A lot of love went into the game, and you're doing it justice. A lot of it is just sort of stuff I've picked up over the years, although I usually try and find a confirming source (usually... ). For hard science I've got a personal collection of books and Wikipedia; the hard science pages are typically too dry for anyone to bother vandalizing them, plus you can find a few other sources online through Google. Googling for images to go along with the corners can be especially edifying, particularly when I'm trying to find corroborating statistics.For organizations linked to conspiracies I'll borrow books from the library, check their websites if they're still around, and then use Wikipedia as a source for useful links via the footnotes. Jim Marrs actually came in handy again for the MJ-12 segment, since he's got a second book entitled Alien Agenda which has a whole section on the MJ-12 papers. He believes the "government redirection" theory about them, by the way. And I don't think I mentioned this because image-hunting takes place after I write and deliver the script, but I found the papers the Canadian researcher uncovered and they are far more plausible because in every report there was no trace of cover-up activities and they never found a single extraterrestrial incident. Plus, you know, there was a US group investigating UFO's, Project Sign/Grudge/Blue Book. It was understaffed, underfunded, and often unscientific, which tells you just how seriously the Air Force treated the prospect. Or was it just to cover for the real UFO investigations?!  No, it wasn't. UFO's of actual interest to national security were forwarded to intelligence branches because they were most likely, you know, spy planes and satellites we'd want to keep track of.
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Apr 29, 2014 06:49
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If you kill Manderley before his conversation with Simons is triggered, you will have a slightly different dialogue with Simons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3cmIBV_ez8 Also, some goofing around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjY-x9D9B1k
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Apr 29, 2014 07:51
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Poor Anna.Anna Navarra posted:Stopping Terror -- A New Perspective on Freedom I went back and replayed this game after 9/11 and right after the passing of the Patriot Act and this bulletin struck me particularly hard. The game had a distinctly different feel to it the second time around. Oh and youre doing a great job Bobbin!
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Apr 29, 2014 08:00
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Was almost hoping you'd avoid regeneration. Silly how it takes the place of a dozen other upgrades and items, including its competition, and is easier to use too, though at least it's funny to picture JC regrowing his oxygen-starved brain cells faster than they can die out as he drowns his way across oceans.
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Apr 29, 2014 08:30
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Oh man, I had no idea the Flatlander Woman line was a reference to that book! I had to read that in high school as a freshman in Geometry class. A surprisingly helpful read for the subject matter.
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Apr 29, 2014 09:51
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Regarding Carter's idealistic view of UNATCO, JC kinda confronts that if you kill Lebedev: SAM CARTER How are you holding up? JC DENTON Fine. I completed the mission objectives. SAM CARTER You were ordered to assassinate a man in cold blood. That must have been difficult. JC DENTON Not if you pause for a second and think about who he was and what he stood for. SAM CARTER It's a shame when a difference of opinion gets somebody killed. That's all I have to say about that. JC DENTON Every war is the result of a difference of opinion. Maybe the biggest questions can only be answered by the greatest of conflicts. SAM CARTER Let's hope not, or we're on the brink of another world war.
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Apr 29, 2014 10:36
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Marker17501 posted:Regarding Carter's idealistic view of UNATCO, JC kinda confronts that if you kill Lebedev:
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Apr 29, 2014 14:53
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Marker17501 posted:Regarding Carter's idealistic view of UNATCO, JC kinda confronts that if you kill Lebedev: I did kill Lebedev and we saw this conversation, actually. Plus I wouldn't call Carter "idealistic" so much as just "optimistic." He's optimistic in that he believes that an organization like UNATCO can recover from having folks like Manderley and Simons in charge and still do some good further down the line; to be idealistic he'd have to think that UNATCO could be made immune to the influence of men like them.
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Apr 29, 2014 17:45
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Finally we reach my favourite part of the entire game. Well, third favourite part really, but this is in my top three of this game for what happens. I'm very glad to see you took on the path of not killing your former members since it never felt right with me. I never attempted to kill them, and I always took a combo of Pepper Spray, Riot Prod and Baton for it. I know you think the Pepper Spray is useless but I always found it handy to stop enemies in their tracks long enough for me to back-attack them. The music in the escape part is pretty awesome as well, definitely one of the best parts of the game's soundtrack. It has an odd mournful bitterness to it in the way of "how could you do this to me, I can't stay here anymore even after everything I did for you". I like the feeling of that. The battle music is also really kickass in this. Something people might not know about this game's soundtrack, is that EVERY SINGLE AREA of the game has four different variations. A normal theme, a battle theme, a conversation/dialog theme, and a death theme. Literally every area in the game has this, even areas you might not think you can actually die in. It always felt...wrong normally to kill someone so quickly with the killswitch but...honestly gently caress Anna, she's a drat cold bitch and she had it coming all the way. Bobbin Threadbare posted:I did kill Lebedev and we saw this conversation, actually. Plus I wouldn't call Carter "idealistic" so much as just "optimistic." He's optimistic in that he believes that an organization like UNATCO can recover from having folks like Manderley and Simons in charge and still do some good further down the line; to be idealistic he'd have to think that UNATCO could be made immune to the influence of men like them. I like Carter. He's one of my favourite people in UNATCO and to me he's like an uncle to JC. An old war veteran uncle who just wants to see the kid turn out right.
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Apr 29, 2014 19:42
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I've never actually tried it, but does the game consider knocking Lebedev out as killing him or sparing him?
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Apr 29, 2014 20:31
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fool_of_sound posted:I've never actually tried it, but does the game consider knocking Lebedev out as killing him or sparing him?
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Apr 29, 2014 20:33
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FinalGamer posted:He's definitely like a good cop in an entire branch of crooks, who genuinely wants to believe that the ideal of his group can still be attained as lawful members of good. But he knows also that he can do that same work from the inside by using his weight and opinion to try and change people for the better, a war of ideas from inside the organisation rather than a war of bullets in a revolution. The problem with his viewpoint is that organizations have their inertia. Members that don't fit are usually either slowly converted to the dominating viewpoints, silently moved to a position where they are unable to do any damage or just expelled. I don't share Carter's optimistic view of UNATCO - during the game we had enough occasions to see its members applaud us for straight-out executing terrorists or complaining that they are made to do a non-violent approach. Most of them also need one order from the guy who isn't even in their organization to start shooting at their former colleague. Not to mention them erasing proofs of Manderley's corruption. Hell, even Carter's own career is the proof against his ideology. Despite having been a general, he's just a supervisor in the armory, removed from the command structure as much as possible. And Sherman pretty much sacks him after JC's escape and fills UNATCO with even more obedient goons.
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Apr 29, 2014 20:38
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When you're in the MJ-12 bunker, are there that many hints besides Paul that you're under UNATCO? I remember on my first playthrough it was a hell of a suckerpunch to get out of the facility, realise that the enemies I was fighting had switched to being UNATCO troopers, and have it gradually dawn on me that the corridors I was escaping through were starting to look eerily familiar.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:00
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Gantolandon posted:The problem with his viewpoint is that organizations have their inertia. Members that don't fit are usually either slowly converted to the dominating viewpoints, silently moved to a position where they are unable to do any damage or just expelled. I don't share Carter's optimistic view of UNATCO - during the game we had enough occasions to see its members applaud us for straight-out executing terrorists or complaining that they are made to do a non-violent approach. Most of them also need one order from the guy who isn't even in their organization to start shooting at their former colleague. Not to mention them erasing proofs of Manderley's corruption. Still, Carter's existence and beliefs is proof enough that UNATCO wasn't always focused on lethal methods and summary executions, plus Paul presumably joined back when that wasn't the case, too, or else he'd probably have bought into Manderley and Simons' narrative. The move from "world police" to "paramilitary force" seems to have taken place within the last few years. Not very long as far as institutions go, but long enough for MJ-12 to replace all the high-level desk jockeys who were then able to cycle out the veterans for indoctrinated youngsters. It's true that Page and his cronies made sure to completely corrupt UNATCO once they got their fingers in deep enough, but without MJ-12's deliberate influence I think Carter would've been right, and the UNATCO that could only relegate a decorated general like him might have been able to be saved. So I don't fault him for trying to work within the system to effect change; he was there to see UNATCO at its best, and he had no way of knowing just how insidious his opponents really were. Plus I think even Carter understood the winds were shifting. If the French slogan didn't tip you off, the "Minister of True Lies" is what the leader of Silhouette calls himself. Both Daedalus and the Silhouette security attack got into the facility because Carter let them in.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:02
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:I did kill Lebedev and we saw this conversation, actually. Plus I wouldn't call Carter "idealistic" so much as just "optimistic." He's optimistic in that he believes that an organization like UNATCO can recover from having folks like Manderley and Simons in charge and still do some good further down the line; to be idealistic he'd have to think that UNATCO could be made immune to the influence of men like them. Woops. For some reason I thought you let Anna kill him. Guess my memory was playing tricks on me. Anyway, fair point about Carter. "Optimistic" is definitely the right word. You get a more pessimistic view on the issue by Helios later in the game, who basically says that human institutions are hopeless and that decision making duties should be handed over to an AI.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:06
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I'm pretty sure Gunther actually has a slightly different line if you manage to make your way past Anna without killing her.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:13
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JT Jag posted:Either way Navarre kills him if you don't so it doesn't really matter.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:20
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Nihilarian posted:Didn't Bobbin show off a way to get around that?
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Apr 29, 2014 21:31
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Xander77 posted:I'm pretty sure Gunther actually has a slightly different line if you manage to make your way past Anna without killing her. Well, that's impossible to do without glitching the game or cheating with noclip, so he doesn't, no. I checked anyway using noclip, and what seems to happen is that when you pass the point where Gunther is supposed to say his line nothing happens instead. The rest of the game proceeds as though she's dead, though.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:38
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fool_of_sound posted:I've never actually tried it, but does the game consider knocking Lebedev out as killing him or sparing him? The game considers him "killed", and continues to consider him killed no matter how long you lug his unconscious form around. Manderley will happily congratulate you for having killed Lebedev while Lebedev snoozes peacefully sprawled across Manderley's desk.
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Apr 29, 2014 21:49
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Sam Hall posted:The game considers him "killed", and continues to consider him killed no matter how long you lug his unconscious form around. Manderley will happily congratulate you for having killed Lebedev while Lebedev snoozes peacefully sprawled across Manderley's desk.
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Apr 29, 2014 22:31
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:Still, Carter's existence and beliefs is proof enough that UNATCO wasn't always focused on lethal methods and summary executions, plus Paul presumably joined back when that wasn't the case, too, or else he'd probably have bought into Manderley and Simons' narrative. The move from "world police" to "paramilitary force" seems to have taken place within the last few years. Not very long as far as institutions go, but long enough for MJ-12 to replace all the high-level desk jockeys who were then able to cycle out the veterans for indoctrinated youngsters. It's true that Page and his cronies made sure to completely corrupt UNATCO once they got their fingers in deep enough, but without MJ-12's deliberate influence I think Carter would've been right, and the UNATCO that could only relegate a decorated general like him might have been able to be saved. From the intro it sounds like UNATCO was formed pretty recently. Manderley and the rest of his crew seems to have been there from the very beginning: you can spot Gunther on the frame when Simons is talking about them. There might have been more idealistic members in the beginning, but the corrupting influence were there from the very start. I don't think that organization ever stood a chance - it was too useful for Page. Carter could talk about non-violence all he wanted, but it wouldn't influence new recruits as much as Manderley giving "shoot to kill" orders, or seeing Hermann and Navarre rampage their way through the mission area. Seeing the attitude of UNATCO soldiers, I doubt he was very influential among them. The only time he managed to do something meaningful to change UNATCO involved letting a captured terrorist escape, sweep through the entire facility and replenish supplies in the armory. While commendable and very brave, is probably not what most people plan when they try to work within the system and make it better.
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Apr 29, 2014 23:07
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Gantolandon posted:From the intro it sounds like UNATCO was formed pretty recently. Manderley and the rest of his crew seems to have been there from the very beginning: you can spot Gunther on the frame when Simons is talking about them. There might have been more idealistic members in the beginning, but the corrupting influence were there from the very start. I don't think that organization ever stood a chance - it was too useful for Page. Carter could talk about non-violence all he wanted, but it wouldn't influence new recruits as much as Manderley giving "shoot to kill" orders, or seeing Hermann and Navarre rampage their way through the mission area. Seeing the attitude of UNATCO soldiers, I doubt he was very influential among them. Actually, the ceremony during the intro was just to dedicate the UNATCO facility on Liberty Island, which is so recent it's described as "under construction" on public maps. The organization itself is old enough that Carter was in operations which dealt with the Northwest War, a war which took place twenty years before the game starts.
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Apr 29, 2014 23:35
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:I just checked this, and while the MiB has a key for those shelves in the nanotech lab, he does not have a canister.  (No idea why I thought that was actually the case.)
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Apr 30, 2014 01:58
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FinalGamer posted:The battle music is also really kickass in this. Something people might not know about this game's soundtrack, is that EVERY SINGLE AREA of the game has four different variations. A normal theme, a battle theme, a conversation/dialog theme, and a death theme. Literally every area in the game has this, even areas you might not think you can actually die in. However, finding an absolute 100% full OST of the game--including all the dialogue music--is a right pain in the rear end.
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May 1, 2014 21:35
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Slimnoid posted:However, finding an absolute 100% full OST of the game--including all the dialogue music--is a right pain in the rear end. I Googled "Deus Ex music files" and got a pretty good result. You could also look into finding a program which can convert the .umx format. DX's music isn't packed into bigger files so it's actually pretty easy to rework into something you can pop into an mp3 player.
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May 1, 2014 22:15
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Slimnoid posted:However, finding an absolute 100% full OST of the game--including all the dialogue music--is a right pain in the rear end. There's also something else music-related that I think no one's mentioned on this thread but I'll wait until a much later level.
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May 2, 2014 04:52
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edit: never mind.
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May 2, 2014 04:59
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I confess there was a period of my life where I slept almost exclusively to DX soundtrack music. I really wish there were longer versions of the various endgame themes because Helios ending song can trance me out if I let it.
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May 4, 2014 02:37
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I had the biggest grin on my face when I played Deus Ex 3 and 2:50 in this bit came up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCGBzrpxpsU
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May 4, 2014 13:03
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:Still, Carter's existence and beliefs is proof enough that UNATCO wasn't always focused on lethal methods and summary executions, plus Paul presumably joined back when that wasn't the case, too, or else he'd probably have bought into Manderley and Simons' narrative. The move from "world police" to "paramilitary force" seems to have taken place within the last few years. Not very long as far as institutions go, but long enough for MJ-12 to replace all the high-level desk jockeys who were then able to cycle out the veterans for indoctrinated youngsters. It's true that Page and his cronies made sure to completely corrupt UNATCO once they got their fingers in deep enough, but without MJ-12's deliberate influence I think Carter would've been right, and the UNATCO that could only relegate a decorated general like him might have been able to be saved. This is basically the point that completely vindicates Carter's point of view. If Carter hadn's stuck around and done what good he could from inside UNATCO, both JC and Paul would be dead and the bad guys would have won. It's a bit odd that such an important hint is buried in a computer that you have no reason to even interact with, but that's Deus Ex for you I guess.
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May 4, 2014 13:57
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Didn't the bad guys win anyway, at least according to what I know about DX2?
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May 4, 2014 15:11
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:I Googled "Deus Ex music files" and got a pretty good result. You could also look into finding a program which can convert the .umx format. DX's music isn't packed into bigger files so it's actually pretty easy to rework into something you can pop into an mp3 player. ModPlug's the best one, and I think it does separate the different tracks. One of the mods for Deus Ex that never got around to popping up had a soundtrack that was mostly remixes of the New York Streets 2 convo song.
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