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forgot my pants posted:The real bummer is polio was supposed to have been eradicated by 2010. I believe the UN and WHO both set this as their target goal some time back. Then as 2010 approached they delayed it a few more years, and now it looks like polio may not be eradicated in our lifetimes. The Arab Spring filled all the old problems with that just-washed minty freshness, like they're brand new!
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May 6, 2014 00:53
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Aleph Null posted:It also mentioned how the CIA used a doctor/spy to locate bin Laden by taking blood samples while under the guise of providing vaccinations and how that is being used as an excuse to murder and expel I don't understand how this isn't considered a war crime. Isn't there something in the Geneva convention about appropriating the trappings of humanitarian organizations as a cover for military or espionage activities? Or is it a war crime, and this is just another instance of the USA not giving a gently caress.
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May 6, 2014 01:43
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VitalSigns posted:I don't understand how this isn't considered a war crime. Isn't there something in the Geneva convention about appropriating the trappings of humanitarian organizations as a cover for military or espionage activities? I think that would require the US to be in a bona fide war first, instead of this bourne identity style "we've always been at war with __________"
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May 6, 2014 01:49
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VitalSigns posted:I don't understand how this isn't considered a war crime. Isn't there something in the Geneva convention about appropriating the trappings of humanitarian organizations as a cover for military or espionage activities? They do provide the actual services, just to be clear here. They are actual doctors giving actual medicine and vaccinations, while also keeping track of anyone going through.
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May 6, 2014 01:54
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Install Windows posted:They do provide the actual services, just to be clear here. They are actual doctors giving actual medicine and vaccinations, while also keeping track of anyone going through. is it more of a problem of skimming data from the NGO doing the work than an actual CIA front? It wouldn't be hard to get an asset in an organization like that I would imagine.
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May 6, 2014 01:59
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VitalSigns posted:I don't understand how this isn't considered a war crime. Isn't there something in the Geneva convention about appropriating the trappings of humanitarian organizations as a cover for military or espionage activities? War crimes are for people dude, not governments. If it's policy (and you haven't lost a war and surrendered), war crimes are called "The Way It Is by Bruce Hornsby and The Range."
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May 6, 2014 02:04
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Sword of Chomsky posted:is it more of a problem of skimming data from the NGO doing the work than an actual CIA front? It wouldn't be hard to get an asset in an organization like that I would imagine. Well people don't trust the doctors at all once it turned out they were there because they were working for the CIA. You probably wouldn't trust your regular doctor either if it turned out the local practice he works at was set up by the CIA for some reason.
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May 6, 2014 02:07
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Install Windows posted:Well people don't trust the doctors at all once it turned out they were there because they were working for the CIA. You probably wouldn't trust your regular doctor either if it turned out the local practice he works at was set up by the CIA for some reason. If the CIA wanted to treat my illnesses in exchange for knowing who I was and where I was from I'd let them myself.
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May 6, 2014 03:36
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That's a pretty pointless analogy, better one might be if the Chinese Intelligence services started setting up free clinics in American cities and wanted to also keep hold of your financial records, SSN, etc. Would you use those clinics if they were substantially cheaper than private US equivalents? Also the Syria thing isn't just the result of the Civil war (though that breakdown in infrastructure is a large factor in facilitating the spread) but the influx of foreign fighters from Pakistan and Afghanistan where Islamic fundamentalists prevented effective vaccination programmes because if Polio was good enough for the Prophet then it's good enough for us! Also by causing general chaos and warfare that prevents NGOs from being able to operate successfully. But, while a very different group from most US anti-vaccination types, many of these groups are also anti-vaccination on religious grounds. Although unlike Christian Scientists they'll execute people for helping doctors and kill the doctors as well if they think they're doing things they disapprove of.
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May 6, 2014 04:32
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Tatum Girlparts posted:The point is you have no idea what you posted. Polio never went away in a fair amount of the world, mainly in chunks of the world that either just had or are currently still having very violent, messy, civil wars. Civil wars cause breakdown in systems, in most of these areas the systems were already pretty garbage, so yea poo poo like Syria and all now has polio as a 'thing' in a bigger way. Or in Pakistan's case, a bunch of poorly educated people hear a story about a specific military thing and just kinda assume it's a massive thing and start kicking out doctors. You might want to redirect your anger to Neo Rasa, not me. All I wanted was for Aleph Null to actually say what he meant rather than dropping a little snark and then running away.
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May 6, 2014 13:56
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Or in Pakistan's case, a bunch of poorly educated people hear a story about a specific military thing and just kinda assume it's a massive thing and start kicking out doctors. What about a months-long fake vaccination drive isn't "a massive thing"? Like, if some anti-vaccination employee at Phizer started filling vials with water instead of vaccinations because he was ethically opposed to it, and people were administered this water thinking it was vaccines, that would be a massive, massive problem. That's what happened here, except it was officially sanctioned, and the kicker is that when you went to get this fake vaccine the orderly stole your bank records and started poking through them. That's definitely a massive thing, incredibly unethical, and incredibly undermining of vaccination programs in developing countries. The fake vaccination programs have most certainly contributed to the resurgence of Polio in Pakistan. I mean, you guys will argue the ethics of herd immunity from vaccination programs and call people who don't vaccinate "child murderers" till you're blue in the face, but here's people getting useless fake vaccinations en masse because of a massive ethical violation and now it's no big deal? Why is that, specifically? Is it just because the military is involved? I'm drawn back to that phrase of yours, it's just "a specific military thing". Even apart from the massive ethical problems inherent in a fake vaccination drive, using the Red Cross or other humanitarian organization as a cover to perform military or intelligence operations is a war crime. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 18:18 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 18:02
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Paul MaudDib posted:What about a months-long fake vaccination drive isn't "a massive thing"? Like, if some anti-vaccination employee at Phizer started filling vials with water instead of vaccinations because he was ethically opposed to it, and people were administered this water thinking it was vaccines, that would be a massive, massive problem. That's what happened here, except it was officially sanctioned, and the kicker is that when you went to get this fake vaccine the orderly stole your bank records and started poking through them. Both are bad. But one is a problem that we run into and see in our daily lives. The other is politics.
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May 6, 2014 18:21
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Install Windows posted:They do provide the actual services, just to be clear here. They are actual doctors giving actual medicine and vaccinations, while also keeping track of anyone going through. They actually didn't. The vaccinations require two more follow-up doses in a relatively short timeframe to be effective, which the fake vaccination program did not administer. That's particularly important for people who are likely to come into contact with Hep-B, like healthcare personnel or people who live in places like Pakistan. quote:In March health workers administered the vaccine in a poor neighbourhood on the edge of Abbottabad called Nawa Sher. The hepatitis B vaccine is usually given in three doses, the second a month after the first. But in April, instead of administering the second dose in Nawa Sher, the doctor returned to Abbottabad and moved the nurses on to Bilal Town, the suburb where Bin Laden lived. So yes, people were administered useless vaccinations. It may have been "real medicine" but it was not administered in the proper fashion to be effective, so in the end it might as well have been water. There's a reason the headline was "CIA runs fake vaccination program" and not "CIA-administered vaccination program takes blood samples". Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 19:13 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 18:25
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I have to side with Paul on this, it was a grossly unethical and irresponsible way to gather information. Now they have groups of people that falsely think they are immunized, and yet are still susceptible to the disease. Imagine the implications of this! Not only can people get the diseases, the area will see people getting "vaccinated" and still getting sick. What will that do to their opinions of doctors and vaccination? Legitimate organizations like the MSF already have enough problems. Doctors are supposed to be above the politics if it means they can help people, there's even an oath about it. That's why they are supposed to get special treatment in otherwise hostile zones. But no, the CIA rolls in and fucks it up for everyone.
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May 6, 2014 18:33
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Oh yeah and I forgot to mention that they literally stole the WHO's vaccines in order to do this fake program. As in, walked into their stores warehouse, opened up the coolers, and walked out with their boxes of vaccines. So in total we have:
In the short term, not only did a bunch of people not get vaccinated properly, now we have a bunch of people going around thinking they're vaccinated when they're actually potential carriers - carriers in an environment with rampant disease levels. They all need to be revaccinated, wasting even more resources. Doctors will face the difficult task of figuring out who the people with the fake vaccinations are, and to be safe probably anyone vaccinated in those regions during that time window will need to be revaccinated, making the scale of the waste huge. Easily millions of dollars of doctors' time and medicine will be spent unraveling this poo poo, in a country that's broke as gently caress. More likely aid organizations will eat the majority of the cost, at the expense of care elsewhere. In the long term, the population just had their suspicion that vaccines are a Western conspiracy confirmed in the worst way. They're likely to be even more suspicious of aid programmes in general, both putting the aid workers at increased personal risk and causing continued harm among the general population. It's an absolute debacle for public health on every timeframe. There's no way that any self-respecting believer in vaccination should treat this as just a minor incident. Under the logic put forward about parents who fail to vaccinate their children, this intel operation will directly maim tens of thousands of people and result in them foregoing vaccinations that will kill and maim countless more. If an anti-vaccer had been involved the tone of this discussion would be quite a lot different, but the military is an authority figure and we gotta respect that. They came up with a way to confirm their other intelligence that Bin Laden was cloistered in Abbottabad, it's gotta be worth screwing over the Red Cross and maiming a bunch of people, right? quote:The vaccination plan was conceived after American intelligence officers tracked an al-Qaida courier, known as Abu Ahmad al-Kuwaiti, to what turned out to be Bin Laden's Abbottabad compound last summer. The agency monitored the compound by satellite and surveillance from a local CIA safe house in Abbottabad, but wanted confirmation that Bin Laden was there before mounting a risky operation inside another country. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 17:10 on May 7, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 19:19
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On the other hand, we now live in a world where bin Laden is super dead. Blood for the blood god.
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May 7, 2014 01:16
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MrNemo posted:That's a pretty pointless analogy, better one might be if the Chinese Intelligence services started setting up free clinics in American cities and wanted to also keep hold of your financial records, SSN, etc. Would you use those clinics if they were substantially cheaper than private US equivalents? There is nothing redeeming about this action. It is loving appalling and could set back WHO, MSF, and general vaccination efforts for decades. edit: Soundly beaten by MuadDib
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May 7, 2014 02:49
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Solkanar512 posted:They've certainly done enough to undermine confidence in the first world. The confidence was never there in the first place in these countries. These are generally places which don't have a decades-long history of universal vaccination, sometimes barely even know what vaccination is, tend to hold quite a bit of distrust for the West, don't always trust the intentions of Western NGOs and aid organizations, and sometimes have leaders or organizations quite happy to make up a Western conspiracy to destroy their people. And just when their area is a shot-up smoking warzone with both sides trying to exterminate anyone who might dare to deal with their enemy, one side of which is probably supported by the West, a bunch of Western doctors come in and insist very strongly that they have to give medicinal shots to everyone, even those who aren't sick, which the rebel-affiliated cleric the next village over says is actually a sterilization campaign intended to wipe out their people at the behest of the Western imperialists. It's got nothing at all do to with Jenny McCarthy. The CIA operation simply gave credibility and confirmation to all those people who claimed the aid doctors were actually doing the nefarious bidding of the US government, and completely shattered the trust that aid organizations have been struggling to build in those areas.
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May 15, 2014 19:16
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I was going to post a postable post but then I found this, which I agree with and has taken much of the effort out - although I did have to transcribe all the links....quote:Dear parents, Read more at http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied#HGC8jwuuxbIjqfpB.99
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Jun 2, 2014 07:58
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I don't know what's more frightening, the fact that people so offhandedly disregard solid science for unverified anecdotes, or that it slowly seems to be spreading to central Europe. I've seen it crop up as a subject of public talks and presentations every now and then, and I hope that this is something that won't catch on here. I should go to one of these talks and see what kind of demographic shows up there. It'd be really interesting to know.
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Jun 2, 2014 11:55
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The Daily Show had a bit of fun with anti-vaxxers recently. Interestingly enough, they focus on the fact that this is happening in well off, highly educated liberal enclaves.
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Jun 4, 2014 14:05
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Solkanar512 posted:The Daily Show had a bit of fun with anti-vaxxers recently. Interestingly enough, they focus on the fact that this is happening in well off, highly educated liberal enclaves. Ironically, the only ones I've personally met are religious fundamentalists. Also in well off, highly educated enclaves though. Also, I grew up in Florida. Note the little red dots all over Florida. EDIT: And was educated there, as my spelling shows. Rebochan fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 4, 2014 20:27
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Solkanar512 posted:The Daily Show had a bit of fun with anti-vaxxers recently. Interestingly enough, they focus on the fact that this is happening in well off, highly educated liberal enclaves. Liberal douches and religious fundies are the two groups who overlap on this conspiracy theory.
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Jun 4, 2014 20:36
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BUSH 2112 posted:Liberal douches and religious fundies are the two groups who overlap on this conspiracy theory. People who are liberal because they "feel" that they should help the lower classes are loving worse than rear end in a top hat conservatives that don't care. To me, it is akin the white man's burden. gently caress people that are only liberal because they feel like they need to help the lowly beggars because it makes them look good.
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Jun 4, 2014 20:45
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Just stopped by to drop this little gem. My wife, being a new mother, is a moderator and very active participant on a lot of natural parenting groups and breast feeding groups etc. The primary basis on most being education and promotion of breastfeeding, natural foods and weening techniques, as well as "green" baby keeping ie. Cloth diapering, making your own baby foods, etc. My wife and I being quite science minded of course are very pro vaccine and modern medicine and she tells me the culture on these sites tends to agree, despite what you might think given the whole "natrual" theme. Anyways, there is of course, no shortage of anti-vaxx nut jobs that surface once in a while and either get gloriously shot down or a debate happens, for which there shouldn't be a debate. One of the most recent and in my opinion, most horrifying, as of late was a woman who came on to report her 9 month old baby had the measles. She was posting asking for help on what she could do to help treat the poor child, and if you don't know, measles at that young of an age is extremely dangerous. My wife, reading them to me, tells me that the thread gets flooded with women who now want to get their kids together and have a "measles party"  in the vein of the way, for those of us who were kids before the vaccine, our parents would get us kids together for sleep overs when one of us got the chicken pox. The fact alone that these idiot's don't understand measles =/= chicken pox is horrifying. Not to mention not knowing that the measles is a very dangerous disease especially to babies. All in the name of "natrual life long immunity." I guess they don't know about other problems caused by the virus later in life... It's also confounding that the common rebuttal I hear is "measles aren't that big of a deal just manage the fever." I mean are we forgetting the fact that it carries a risk, however slight and surely greater than any risks associated with vaccines, of permanent disability or death and it is a COMPLETELY preventable disease??? I feel that the danger of the anti-vaxx movement coupled with social media is especially greater than that of the usual pseudo-science or grossly misinformed political rhetoric because this bullshit goes viral (no pun) on social media and now you have a bunch of idiots putting their children at danger not to mention the children of non-idiots who can't be vaccinated. I feel like there isn't an adjective strong enough to classify these people without doing a disservice to the other nouns that the adjective would normally be used to describe. Shachi fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 4, 2014 21:24
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Shachi posted:I feel like there isn't an adjective strong enough to classify these people without doing a disservice to the other nouns that the adjective would normally be used to describe. I think the term "child abuser" fits the bill here.
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Jun 4, 2014 21:34
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Call CPS, pretty sure they had similiar cases before and they won kept the kids away from the stupid.
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Jun 4, 2014 22:44
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PhazonLink posted:Call CPS, pretty sure they had similiar cases before and they won kept the kids away from the stupid. I don't really give a gently caress, the parents are denying their children medical care. By any common understanding of the term "child abuse", denying a kid medical care falls under that.
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Jun 4, 2014 23:42
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I think he meant the CPS won, not the parents.
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Jun 4, 2014 23:46
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IANAL, but I would think that denying your kids medical are like vaccines can sometimes be acceptable (like for Jehovah's witnesses and such) but I really doubt that intentionally infecting your children with dangerous diseases is.
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Jun 5, 2014 02:38
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Ogmius815 posted:IANAL, but I would think that denying your kids medical are like vaccines can sometimes be acceptable (like for Jehovah's witnesses and such) Which is absolute horseshit and shouldn't be considered any more tolerable than if someone had a religious conviction that God told them to stab their child. It's child abuse and people unwilling to enter the 21st (or gently caress, even the 20th) century and protect a child do not deserve to keep them.
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Jun 5, 2014 02:41
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wheez the roux posted:Which is absolute horseshit and shouldn't be considered any more tolerable than if someone had a religious conviction that God told them to stab their child. It's child abuse and people unwilling to enter the 21st (or gently caress, even the 20th) century and protect a child do not deserve to keep them. Despite the fact that I am both very, very pro vaccine and not at all religious, I tend to have to disagree with you on this. Forcing someone to undergo a medical procedure that violates their sincerely held religious beliefs is just... wrong. Its no different, or perhaps even worse than laws forbidding the burka, or wearing of traditional headdress/beards and so forth. I absolutely disagree with their choice since I think its faulty, but it isn't the place for the government to go and force someone to receive vaccinations that violate a deep facet of their faith. Mind you Jehovah's Witnesses are actually allowed to take vaccinations as a matter of personal choice, but whatever. There is also a practical reasoning for this. The number of people who will not end up vaccinated for religious reasons is very, very small near as I can tell, and its easily a number that could be covered by herd immunity for the most part. By contrast, forcing religious folks to be immunized is going to piss off a LOT of people, and stir up more anti-vaccination bullshit. Just isn't a good risk reward in my opinion.
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Jun 5, 2014 03:53
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Caros posted:Despite the fact that I am both very, very pro vaccine and not at all religious, I tend to have to disagree with you on this. Hats, clothes, and beards don't generally kill children. Just thought you might want to know.
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Jun 5, 2014 04:10
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No one has to worry about Burkas or other religious garments magically appearing on them if they come within 15ft of someone from a culture with that style of clothing though. It really shouldn't have to be pointed out that these illnesses do not respect religious beliefs nor hold their own exemptions. The only exemptions that should be allowed should be due to medical considerations, not religious.
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Jun 5, 2014 04:11
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Way to ignore the second half of the argument guys.
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Jun 5, 2014 04:26
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Caros posted:Despite the fact that I am both very, very pro vaccine and not at all religious, I tend to have to disagree with you on this. Except they are now having to make it harder to get religious exemptions because people do just put that down: http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/06/10/2127601/oregon-vaccine-stigma-bill-advances/
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Jun 5, 2014 04:27
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Irradiation posted:Except they are now having to make it harder to get religious exemptions because people do just put that down: Yeah you should probably have to document a history of expressing a particular religious preference just like COs do. So unless everyone who hates vaccines goes to their local kingdom hall and goes through whatever initiation procedures I assume they have (joining a church is very rarely just "hey I want to join you guys" "yup okay you're in") it isn't going to be a viable excuse for most people. Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 04:29
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And what exactly happens if one of those retarded-rear end anti-vaccination religions ends up becoming more popular and a larger percentage of the population starts following it? Do we just accept that our kids are gonna get measles or whooping cough or fuckin polio because some stupid assholes refuse to do anything about it?
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Jun 5, 2014 05:06
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ChairMaster posted:And what exactly happens if one of those retarded-rear end anti-vaccination religions ends up becoming more popular and a larger percentage of the population starts following it? Do we just accept that our kids are gonna get measles or whooping cough or fuckin polio because some stupid assholes refuse to do anything about it? The point is that at the present numbers weird religions like Christian Science or Jehovah's witnesses aren't sufficient to compromise herd immunity (I don't think anyway; I'm not a doctor or an epidemiologist or whatever) and it isn't likely that huge numbers of people will change religions because they don't want to vaccinate their children. If for some reason this changes we can always reconsider the policy.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:26
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Or how about we don't play games with public health in the first place? If your religion prohibits you from safely interacting with the rest of society, then you shouldn't be allowed to do that. I'm not entirely unsympathetic here, we could always just exile them to an island or something instead of taking their kids away if they prefer that.
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Jun 5, 2014 05:38
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