|
Yvonmukluk posted:How strange to think the course of this LP was so massively altered because a random AI duchess was friggin' crazy. I feel like the mysteries of who killed Valeria III and Yaroslav were palpable demonstrations of why CK2 is a really good game.
|
#
?
May 5, 2014 21:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 13:45 |
|
|
Rincewind posted:Having thought about it a lot, breaking up the Ming (as in what the Ming start out with in vanilla, I mean-- the Ming Frontier has already been broken up into sensible successor states) doesn't really sit right with me narratively (it posits that the ByzLP Ming did worse than the real Ming) or balancewise (it would make the most powerful countries at the start France and the Roman Empire) Is that an incentive for people to suddenly go 'I want B now'?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
It's mostly just musing about things I'm encountering as I work on the mod (and soliciting more suggestions for East Asia that don't involve the Ming randomly exploding, I guess).
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2014 21:20
|
|
|
Rincewind posted:It's mostly just musing about things I'm encountering as I work on the mod (and soliciting more suggestions for East Asia that don't involve the Ming randomly exploding, I guess). So any realistic suggestion at this point needs a strong Chinese state that won't IMMEDIATELY explode? What about the possibility of explosion?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2014 21:23
|
|
|
Rincewind posted:I feel like the mysteries of who killed Valeria III and Yaroslav were palpable demonstrations of why CK2 is a really good game. I can't help be wonder what could have been, though. Curse her sudden yet inevitable betrayal!
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2014 21:25
|
|
|
Rincewind posted:It's mostly just musing about things I'm encountering as I work on the mod (and soliciting more suggestions for East Asia that don't involve the Ming randomly exploding, I guess). You should do what I suggested on skype and have our only cores be that of our CK2 demense. The senate wants to end feudalism overnight, they can have at it.  Should be on par with RHRE, challenge-wise. Maybe somewhat harder.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2014 22:00
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:You should do what I suggested on skype and have our only cores be that of our CK2 demense. The senate wants to end feudalism overnight, they can have at it. Should I write up scenarios for powerful Ming and broken Ming in case Rince takes your scenario?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2014 22:09
|
|
|
I do say that cores should be just all over the drat place. Maybe making a lot of use of the Shogunate system for those states with significant amounts of vassals? But yes, make the struggle of holding an empire together still very real. Patriots and rebels should be things you never can just get rid of, you just have to deal with them, and either go for concessions or brute force. And rebels ought to claim independence in short order once they've occupied their territory. If possible, maybe territory that's been sufficiently ravaged could 'revert' to unoccupied places open for colonization? It would be interesting to see other nations making a move to establish colonial nations in like, Europe or something. ...That said, as excellent as the feudal narrative in CKII is, EUIV's mechanics just lend themselves much better to the story of a burgeoning global empire. Tales of amassing power and distant warfare and colonialism and the pursuit of wealth are much more natural to the Renaissance era. It can seem a bit cold and impersonal compared to the web of intricate relations and personal ambitions, but that was the way of the times, the transition from days where honor and virtue were the bastion of human thought, and towards a more industrialist mindset - wealth and production proven to be the backbone of a strong, lasting empire, and the pursuit of it justifying all means. Familial ties just weren't as important then.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2014 22:25
|
|
|
Give Byzantium a re-skinned HRE, a re-skinned faction system and a re-skinned Curia
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2014 22:42
|
|
|
This scenario is predicated on the Ming NOT being completely broken/Rince taking option A. Scenario where Rince take B by fiat/does something else will follow eventually. All countries in East Asia are members of the Chinese tech group unless otherwise stated. Scenario #1 (The Mandate of Heaven) The Path of the Dragon The Ming are beyond question the preeminent superpower in the world - culturally, technologically... Their empire at its largest spanned two continents and overshadowed that of Alexander the Great. So when the Second Hungarian League War shattered the Ming Frontier forever, it was a true slap in the face and their first loss since the Red Turban Rebellion. The Emperor was assassinated before a crowd of thousands the following year, the Empire descending into chaos and opportunistic neighbors smelling blood. When the Ten Years Chaos ended, Ming was at its weakest point in a century. They were browbeaten, hampered by corruption, but they were not broken. They still hold the Mandate of Heaven against a rebelling Tibet and the self-proclaimed Uyghur Caliph, and their future remains where it always has: on the banks of the Yangtze. They stand alone against a sea of enemies, and the new Emperor has proclaimed he shall destroy them. Game Mechanics: The Ming are mostly knocked back to vanilla EU4 borders, though they may share an alliance with Ming Persia. Tibet and the Uyghur Caliphate are in open rebellion and allied at game start, and could win with a human player or intervention. The Ming should start with negative modifiers that begin to moderate and disappear through either returning to ‘old’ borders or through events. If possible, the Ming should be weighed against Exploration or Expansion ideas and in favor of Quantity. Possibility for Qing rebellion? Regardless, their army is unrivaled through numbers and manpower, though their navy is severely lacking. The Path of the Kami The scattered Japanese feudal states and the Koreans count themselves blessed that the Ming never conquered either. Twice the Ming came for them, and twice through divine providence and the most professional soldiers in Asia they were sent back. The Emperors of Japan and Korea have intermarried and united into a loose confederation of states to counter the Ming, the Dominion of Amaterasu. In the wake of the Ten Years Chaos, they had expanded into Manchuria and Taiwan. But the two look to be soon clashing over whether they are equals or if one shall rule... That is not to say Amaterasu is the only game in town. The Ainu League, long having already feared Japanese encroachment, now fears both them and the Ming. They focus themselves on exploiting their wallets, expanding further east and getting rich off selling naval access to the Dominion. Game Mechanics: The Dominion is either a HRE-style Empire or starts as an Alliance between EU4-style Japan’s shogunate system and Korea. Korea owns most of where Manchu would’ve been, Taiwan is a vassal of Japan. Under the HRE style system, both Japan and Korea could potentially come out on top. Under the Alliance, it has guaranteed chance of breaking within twenty years of game start with an event-forced DoW – either through event chains or through militancy. Thanks to Ainu naval rights, they have started to colonize California. If possible, the Koreans should have Naval ideas, the Japanese Exploration and Religion ideas, and both Quality ideas. Potential for Korean tradition of more powerful ships (turtle ship) and removing penalties on Eastern religions since Asia is dominant? Also potentially unable to expand colonially until the Korean question is settled. Their armies lack size, but it's legend that one Japanese or Korean soldier could take on ten Chinese. The Ainu League is a Republic government, ruling over Ryuku, Luzon, Sakhalin, Alaska, and Hokkaido. They’re obviously focused on Trade ideas, though they could become a colonial power if they survive long enough. The Path of the Enlightened He has gone by many names. Buddha. Moses. Jesus. Mohammed. Pope Leo X. He is the Enlightened One, the Son of God, and the one who shall forever resurrect to lead true believers to nirvana. And He is now King of Thailand. His will be done. But Vietnam refuses to yield. Considering themselves the true successors to Confucian teachings, they believe the Thai are misguided. Long overshadowed by the Ming and having reasserted their independence, they are on the cusp of a Golden Age. Game Mechanics: Thailand is rapidly converting to a mixture of traditional Buddhism and the militant form of Catholicism brought over by refugees of the Pope’s wars with the rest of Christianity after the Schism was ended in the late 11th century. They are obviously into Religious ideas, and looking to expand militarily into Indonesia or the rest of the Indo-China Peninsula. Vietnam starts with a strong standing army and the potential to expand if the opportunity arises. Do they take the fight to the crazed ‘Messiah’ of Thailand? Or do they bide their time and wait for the Chinese Dragon to lick its wounds? AdventFalls fucked around with this message at 23:21 on May 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2014 23:16
|
|
|
Ooh. I like this scenario.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2014 23:21
|
|
|
This scenario is my last one, and is predicated on Rince selecting option B by LPer fiat or takes an option to force Byzantium/France to also fragment. All countries are members of the Chinese tech group unless otherwise stated. Scenario #2 (The Ming Are Tired!) The Five Kingdoms The rise of warlord generals was supposed to end with the Ming Emperor sending the Frontier to ‘secure the Silk Road’. He had hoped they would continue west; give him time to centralize the state. But the problem only intensified and plunged the Empire into a state of civil war. Hopelessly outmanned, the Emperor’s right-hand general was barely able to force a stalemate. Smelling weakness the Ming’s domestic conquests began to pile on demanding independence, autonomy, and compensation. The Empire is a shell, split into five warring kingdoms. The Emperor’s general has a cunning plan to unite the lands once more, but can his deeds match those of Sun Tzu and Cao Cao? Game Mechanics: The Ming are split into five separate states, two ruled by warlords, one by descendants of the Khans, one by the Uyghur Caliph, and one ruled by the Emperor. The Caliph seeks to take revenge upon China for the Frontier, creating a new Caliphate on their remains. The Emperor wants to restore Ming to greatness, while the warlords want to go their own way. All five states get missions towards reconquering China, special decisions granted to the last remaining state (whether through conquering or external forces) – a true Caliphate? An unstoppable Ming? A new horde greater than the Mongols dared dream? Korea Ascendant They say it was impossible to dream of. But Korea stands on the precipice of greatness. Using its turtle boats and Chinese technology, it has done what China failed to do: invade Japan. Half the nation is now under Korean control, the other half remains under the old shogunate system. But there is a new threat to them from the north. The Ainu, longtime trading partners of the Ming, have finally decided to strike. They have declared that the Emperor of Japan must submit to their King in both blood and land for all eternity. Can the Japanese survive these threats and restore the Land of the Rising Sun, or have these impossible powers forced themselves into reality? Game Mechanics: Korea has conquered EU4’s Manchu states, Ryuku, Kyushu, and Shikoku. They seek to be the new empire to fill the Ming’s power vacuum, wanting to finish off any nightmares of a Japanese invasion before strike at the heart of the Ming. Japan has a chance, only if they choose the lesser of two evils... Ainu has taken Hokkaido, the northern tip of Honshu, Sakhalin, and the western half of the Bering Strait. They are rich, specializing in Trade and Exploration Ideas. Raised into prominence by Ming traders, can they succeed where their old teachers failed? A Cambodian Dark Age? You Are Mistaken. The Khmer Empire never fell, thanks to Chinese technology and culture. Angkor Wat remains a testament to their power, forcing Dai Viet to kneel before them and Thailand to cower for fear they are next. But there is an old conflict still tearing at its fabric – while Theravada Buddhism is the state religion and the majority, the Mahayana are experiencing a revival. The Thai have struck a personal union with one of the kings of the Indonesian isles, a descendant of the Greek Jews that funded the Byzantine Empire in its darkest hour. Unite the Indonesian islands? Turn back the Khmer Empire at its new peak? Exploit the spices of the seas? Opportunity is afoot for those for those who seek it... Game Mechanics: The regional power here is the Khmer Empire aka Cambodia, who have forced Dai Viet into a rump state. Their lands are rife with unrest, both from the conquered Vietnamese and the Mahayana. Either one could break the Khmer and force it to change its plans. Innovative and Defensive Ideas, malus on missionary power. Helen Israel rests in part of the Indonesian archipelago, having facilitated a migration of Greek and Ethiopian Jews into the Far East. They came to power through their money, and maintained power through their cunning. They see the potential in their union with Thailand, and have Religious, Economic, and Trade Ideas. Potential Idea bonus to Espionage, lessons learnt from the Black Chamber...
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 03:49
|
|
|
I'm going to run some test games and see if the great chain of blobs (France, Rome, Yilang [the Ming Frontier successor state in Persia], and Ming itself) need to be broken up somehow or not, and then I'll start the vote for this. Hopefully everything will work out, somehow. 
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 06:50
|
|
|
Are you still accepting new ideas? I've finally had a good one and I'm writing it up now
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 07:38
|
|
|
I have pretty much stolen this from AdventFalls. I am sorry, but I liked how this setup looks. I'll be doing a couple of Scenario's myself. I am also pretty bad with names so help me out if I get it wrong Scenario - The Age of the Ming Nobility of Virtue The Age of Expansion is over, the Second Hungarian League defeat and the loss of several expeditionary armies in India and Brunei has seen to that. However, it is not the end of the Age of the Ming. The Ming currently maintain the largest Land Empire in the history of humanity, and have the greater pleasure of it surviging largerly the death of the Hongwu Emperor and the great general Chang Yuchun whose expeditionary army conquered the lands. The Empire has largely been held together at the expense of huge quantities of Hui and Han conscripts. Every revolt along the silk road and the steppes is brutaly crushed. Revolts in Ming India are sapping the strength of China and it cannot last. Already reinforcements to the Middle East and Europe has slowed to a trickle so the Emperor's Peace can be enforced along the silk road. The Ming Emperor has called an end to direct rule from the Forbidden Palace in Beijing. Instead, the Frontier will be broken into autonomous provinces ruled by Governors elected by and from members of the newly extended Imperial bureaucracy. These Governors are bound by new rules and edicts passed by Confucian Academics. Only time will tell if it will be enough to hold the new Empire together, or if it will all come crumbling down. Gameplay Mechanics: It's yet another 'HRE China'. However in this case, China itself is mainly untouched. Area's outside of China are broken up into manageble Administrative Republics that are vassals of the Ming. China would be the only elector so they remain the Leader at all times and they would probably get some special events. This HRE will include Manchu and Korea but I will get to that shortly. The Merchant of Seoul The Kingdom of Korea is no more. In the early days after the victory of the Red Turban rebellion, the Hongwu Emperor did not look just west to recover the Silk Road. The general Sun Shi lead the Manchu army south into Korea shortly after their stunning victory subjugading the Khans of Manchu. The Joseon king, Sejong the Loved, lead his army north to meet them at the boarder of former Manchu and Korea and promptly ordered his soldiers to erect tents and pavilions and prepare for a great feast. Sun Shi was welcomed as a hero and Korea was spared a bloody and devestating war. For his surrender, the Joseon's were rewarded by being married into the Royal family of the Mings. As the least rebellious of the conquered lands, Korea became the first of the self ruled provinces. The new Administration, lead by the Merchant families who could afford the best tutors from China have brought Korea into a golden age of trading and merchantry. The Merchant Province of Korea, with it's Dragon Ships and Manchu mercenaries have forced concessions out of Brunei, Japan and established a colony on the Island of Taiwan to better extend it's power throughout the China sea. Can Korea bring enough wealth and power into itself to stand the test of time, or is this merchant republic just an experiment that will come apart? Gameplay Mechanics: Korea starts with Taiwan as a colony and a province of southern Japan and a province of Brunei owned by Korea. It's a Merchant Republic, and starts with a relatively large navy for it's size but a tiny army. A Cambodian Dark Age? You Are Mistaken. I really like this idea, so I am putting it in here because it's good for scenario. Lord Windy fucked around with this message at 12:54 on May 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 10:54
|
|
|
These last 3 ideas have all seemed really good, for me.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 12:07
|
|
|
In order to best preserve game balance and grant suitable handicaps to China, I propose that all provinces within vanilla Ming's borders should be uncolonised land.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2014 13:38
|
|
|
After running some test games, I've concluded that the various blobs are all able to check one another enough to keep the game interesting all the way through. This EU4 won't be about shepherding a small or middle-tier power into imperial glory. It will be about the largest empires in the world trying to halt one another's irresistible rise— a clash of titans, beating one another bloody and cultivating alliances with the lesser powers in an attempt to gain the upper hand. France, meet Rome. Kiev, meet Yilang. Unstoppable force, meet immovable object. If at the end of EU4, we wind up with something that's not playable in Victoria, we'll just run March of the Eagles and Congress of Vienna the world into something more sensible. I like March of the Eagles. I'm just not sure if I like it enough to add yet another conversion to the mix. Then again, I'm probably skipping Hearts of Iron, so... Anyway! The upshot of all of that is that France, Rome, Yilang (Ming Persia), Kiev, and the others won't need to be smashed to bits to prevent Victoria 2 from being Blue Europe vs. Purple Europe vs. Green Europe vs. Red Middle East. So neither will the Ming. So, given that, let's finally vote on what's up with East Asia. The middle ages are over, and a new era of world history has begun. The kings and queens, sultans and sultanas, emperors and empresses of the Near West have come to realize that the lands they struggled to control in centuries of crusades and jihads was little more than a feudal patchwork at the periphery of Eurasia. For in Asia— glorious Asia!— there are kingdoms and empires whose wonders far surpass anything France and Rome, the self-proclaimed masters of the Near West, could hope to offer.  This proposal is Patter Song's suggestion more or less as-is, so I'll just quote it here: Patter Song posted:After the initial, heroic act of chasing the Yuan forces all the way to Karakorum, torching it, and annexing Inner Mongolia, the Ming resisted the urge to outright annex steppe territory, instead leaving their marauding armies to set up friendly, pliant puppet states. Outer Mongolia and Xinjiang are the Sinicized kingdoms of Dzungharia and Uighurstan, respectively: vassals of the Great Ming. The generals avoided Tibet and its mountains on their march westwards, leaving the Himalayan state unmolested. In-game effects In addition to the specific countries and political situations indicated above, this option suggests a more outwardly-focused Ming with an emphasis on trade, exploration, and the navy.  This proposal is AdventFalls' suggestion more or less as-is, so I'll just quote it here: AdventFalls posted:This scenario is predicated on the Ming NOT being completely broken/Rince taking option A. Scenario where Rince take B by fiat/does something else will follow eventually. All countries in East Asia are members of the Chinese tech group unless otherwise stated. In-game effects: In addition to the specific countries and political situations indicated above, this option suggests a more inwardly-focused Ming with an emphasis on production, administration, and the army. The Dominion being our one HRE mechanics thing means that the HRE mechanics won't be available for future scenarios. Nobody will start with any New World, colonies, since I want colonization to be dynamic, but the Ainu and the Japanese members of the Dominion will be built to be natural colonizers of the pacific coast of the Americas. Or whatever Japanese or Chinese explorer they're named after in ByzWorld.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 09:49
|
|
|
As much fun as stuff like the Ainu Merchant Republic and the crazy zealous Thailand Kingdom seem, I kinda would like a larger Ming and God knows I couldn't resist making DS9 jokes as long as Japan-Korea is around. So, going with option A. It has a tough but not unreasonable Ming China and that Japan sounds like it'd at the very least be fun to watch.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 10:10
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 10:11
|
|
|
I vote for B as well.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 10:22
|
|
|
Let it be B.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 10:34
|
|
|
I'm going to go for Broke.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 10:54
|
|
|
B.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 11:02
|
|
|
A great new future awaits the world. A Chinese future.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 11:06
|
|
|
B
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 11:23
|
|
|
B-ware! Though if at all possible, the Helen Israel idea is still pretty cool.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 11:36
|
|
|
A
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 11:47
|
|
|
B and Helen Israel.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 11:50
|
|
|
I vote B.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 11:52
|
|
|
I just want to say that I want Helen Israel as well.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 11:54
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 11:55
|
|
|
and NOT Helen Israel, because I'm a serious bore without a sense of fun.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 12:04
|
|
|
B
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 13:17
|
|
|
B And now I've caught up - rincewind this is one hell of an LP
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 13:32
|
|
|
B
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 13:36
|
|
|
A question: are we going to be able to vote on what political parties we'll see or will it be by fiat? I just wanna bring back the New Marians now that they can function as a party.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 13:36
|
|
|
All About A
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 13:59
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 14:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 13:45 |
|
|
B seems the saner choice for a bit of lag before WWI in 1600 (Granted this is conjecture as I've yet to be able to get EUIV). Plus I just like the idea.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2014 14:45
|
|
