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This is a very good game but the best that any part of it achieves is "as good as Dark Souls." Which is good. But I don't think I'd say they outdid themselves, or improved on the formula, or strayed from it much. Maybe that should be enough though. I'd still take Dark Souls 3 - 10 over about 95% of games.
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May 8, 2014 15:23
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JAssassin posted:So I'm making a str/faith paladin build, and I'm trying to figure out what weapon I should use. I don't want to use the Heide Knight Sword the entire game again. Would the Black Knight Greatsword be good with lightning infusion, or does the inherent fire damage make it not a good choice for that? Stick with a Lightning Mace for the first part of the game. It's got cheap stat requirements, does strike damage (and there's a lot of heavy armor dudes early on), is relatively lightweight, and is available basically out the door. After Undead Crypt, you can get the Defender's Greatsword, which gets an S scaling in Faith and is unbelievably good. TangentEnigma posted:This is a very good game but the best that any part of it achieves is "as good as Dark Souls." Which is good. But I don't think I'd say they outdid themselves, or improved on the formula, or strayed from it much. I have, for the most part, enjoyed this game (though, seriously, gently caress whoever designed the Shrine of Amana), but I agree. I don't think I could play another one of these games unless they make some kind of dramatic change to the core gameplay conceit. The limits of the design end up showing through: as mentioned, most of the bosses just aren't that interesting, and it's a result of the fact that there's only so much you can do in a game where the basic combat format is "avoid their damage while they're attacking, then damage them." Vermain fucked around with this message at 15:27 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 15:25
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Internet Kraken posted:Sif was hilariously useless in the Manus fight though. He does basically no damage and doesn't even serve as a good distraction. If Artorias was relying on Sif to help him then no wonder he got crushed. Bad dog. He was there to give courage to the player character obviously. A valiant companion who laughs bad odds and danger in the face.  Seriously it was kinda funny to get dragged down into the boss pit and straight into the biggest aberration ever, only to find a summon sign mid-fight, thinking "oh nice some help with this rear end in a top hat" and then it's baby Sif.
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May 8, 2014 15:25
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THE PWNER posted:Actually, I was doing it all initially. Until I realized that the game is just a bunch of bonfire checkpoints with 5 enemies between them, and that meticulously clearing everything was neither needed nor particularly enjoyable. But you could just run past everything in Dark Souls as well. You are very rarely required to actually fight outside of bosses if you know where to go. Limited resources was only an issue if you actually explored and thus fought the enemies. If you choose to ignore everything then yeah no poo poo its easy. If you want limited resources, you could just do what I do and not buy a truckload of health crystals to munch on. Then you have to make do with the small amount of estus the game gives you. Of course that still won't stop you from running past everything but the only solution to that is for you to realize it makes no sense. You can't complain about there being nothing between bonfires when you are intentionally ignoring everything. THE PWNER posted:Don't tell anyone, but you can actually run past everything and still explore stuff. I'm still picking up almost every item etc, just with a massive train of slow and dumb enemies behind me There is no way you are finding most of the hidden stuff if you are running from all the enemies. You could get some hidden items if you knew where to look but I don't buy for a second that anyone doing a blind playthrough could run past the enemies and still get most of the hidden loot. TangentEnigma posted:This is a very good game but the best that any part of it achieves is "as good as Dark Souls." Which is good. But I don't think I'd say they outdid themselves, or improved on the formula, or strayed from it much. Well Dark Souls was a really loving good game so surpassing it is pretty difficult. I'd agree that I don't feel this game is better than Dark Souls in most ways, but that's not a bad thing because Dark Souls is one of the best games ever IMO. What I will praise a lot is the story. Its very different from the one they told in Dark Souls and really takes advantage of the medium. I wasn't expecting such a big departure from the story told in Dark Souls and was pleasantly surprised. Too bad it kind of trips and falls on its face right at the end. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 15:33 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 15:26
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I really don't get why you'd run past the enemies by default unless you're speedrunning. 70% of the game is about fighting the enemies (the devs have stated it is because of this that they work a lot more on the normal enemies than they do the bosses), don't do that and you don't have much game left.
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May 8, 2014 15:29
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Internet Kraken posted:But you could just run past everything in Dark Souls as well. You are very rarely required to actually fight outside of bosses if you know where to go. Limited resources was only an issue if you actually explored and thus fought the enemies. If you choose to ignore everything then yeah no poo poo its easy. Running out of Estus is pretty to hard to do except during the very early game. And yeah, you could still run past everything in DS1. But the thing I dislike isn't the fact that it's possible. It's not like some innate autism gene is forcing me to play the Optimal Fastest Way and run past everything. It's just that the game isn't challenging me enough in those portions. I get through them after burning 2 or 3 estus in 5 minutes. So I choose not to do them and do the part of the game that I like.
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May 8, 2014 15:29
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THE PWNER posted:Don't tell anyone, but you can actually run past everything and still explore stuff. I'm still picking up almost every item etc, just with a massive train of slow and dumb enemies behind me Hey man, I don't judge the way you play the game, but I play it to be a pro, no scope, monster slayer.
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May 8, 2014 15:31
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Genocyber posted:I really don't get why you'd run past the enemies by default unless you're speedrunning. 70% of the game is about fighting the enemies (the devs have stated it is because of this that they work a lot more on the normal enemies than they do the bosses), don't do that and you don't have much game left. People bypass the enemies because they either A) don't find fighting them fun, or B) have already fought them and don't want to do it yet again, because it's an otherwise identical combat experience. Since there's no randomization and limited movesets, fighting the same things over and over again is mostly a slog. Either one of these points to poor design if the core conceit of your game is something that large chunks of people want to avoid.
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May 8, 2014 15:31
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Vermain posted:People bypass the enemies because they either A) don't find fighting them fun, or B) have already fought them and don't want to do it yet again, because it's an otherwise identical combat experience. Since there's no randomization and limited movesets, fighting the same things over and over again is mostly a slog. Either one of these points to poor design if the core conceit of your game is something that large chunks of people want to avoid. I wasn't clear at all I guess - my first time through an area, I'm killing everything most of the time, unless it's a bunch of enemies that suck to fight, for example anything with a shield and spear. Once I die to the boss, I'm running past everything to get back. The only exception to this was Black Gulch because the poo poo coming out of the walls and ground was scary looking.
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May 8, 2014 15:33
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Having just completed a run of the game where I killed roughly 3 non-boss enemies(the first turtle in Turtle Tunnel gave me grief, the giant acid bug in Amana, and the bell ringing rear end in a top hat in the Crypt), the game would get super boring if that's the only way I played it. Of course it's possible to run by everything, but a lot of the fights are interesting and there's no real basis for complaining that there's no gameplay if you don't engage with it.
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May 8, 2014 15:34
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Genocyber posted:I think you have to be really bad to have a first playthrough be that long. Most LPs/streams I've seen of DkS take somewhere between 30-60 hours, and my first playthrough was a bit shy of 60. My zero summon Deprived full clear has me at 120 hours and I just got to the ancient dragon. I must be a bad 
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May 8, 2014 15:36
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THE PWNER posted:Running out of Estus is pretty to hard to do except during the very early game. And yeah, you could still run past everything in DS1. But the thing I dislike isn't the fact that it's possible. It's not like some innate autism gene is forcing me to play the Optimal Fastest Way and run past everything. It's just that the game isn't challenging me enough in those portions. I get through them after burning 2 or 3 estus in 5 minutes. So I choose not to do them and do the part of the game that I like. Go join the Covenant of Champions then. Or use a less effective weapon. Do something to make the game harder if you are somehow incapable of enjoying it just because basic enemies aren't killing you all the time. No poo poo it isn't gonna be as hard as Dark Souls 1 was on your first playthrough; you're better at the game now. I can clear every area in Dark Souls 1 without breaking a sweat, doesn't mean I feel compelled to run through them just because they are easy now. You're playing the game in a really bizzare way. Which is fine I guess, but complaining about there being nothing between the bonfire when you are intentionally skipping all that stuff is absurd.
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May 8, 2014 15:36
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When Internet Kraken says you're complaining about absurd things in the DkS2 thread, you have hosed up.
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May 8, 2014 15:42
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THE PWNER posted:I wasn't clear at all I guess - my first time through an area, I'm killing everything most of the time, unless it's a bunch of enemies that suck to fight, for example anything with a shield and spear. Once I die to the boss, I'm running past everything to get back. The only exception to this was Black Gulch because the poo poo coming out of the walls and ground was scary looking. Oh, yeah that's not unusual. If anything it's more fun in this since the enemies are a lot more aggressive/the level design and less iframes on entering a fog gate makes it tricker for some of the ones (Such as the Undead Purgatory). That said I'll usually fight them because the combat itself is fun, and the enemy formations tend to be much more interesting in this than in Dks.
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May 8, 2014 15:43
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Internet Kraken posted:Go join the Covenant of Champions then. Or use a less effective weapon. Do something to make the game harder if you are somehow incapable of enjoying it just because basic enemies aren't killing you all the time. No poo poo it isn't gonna be as hard as Dark Souls 1 was on your first playthrough; you're better at the game now. I can clear every area in Dark Souls 1 without breaking a sweat, doesn't mean I feel compelled to run through them just because they are easy now. The CoC honestly just makes the game more of a slog, as all it does is lower your damage, and stop you from summoning phantoms. It still doesn't make the game significantly harder or more interesting if you know what you're doing.
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May 8, 2014 15:44
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Orv posted:When Internet Kraken says you're complaining about absurd things in the DkS2 thread, you have hosed up.  But for reals, if you aren't having fun stop playing. Holy poo poo - why is this a weird concept to games forum posters? "Ugh, this loving game is pissing me off and I run past everything - BUT I MUST PLAY TO THE END" 
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May 8, 2014 15:46
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Does the Royal Dirk not get a backstab/riposte bonus? It seems lackluster even compared to non-dagger weapons.
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May 8, 2014 15:52
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So SL means nothing right, it's all about the Soul memory? I've got 1.8m sm and was wondering if I should just dump my souls into some more stats (Sitting on 200k souls, and I'm SL 123)
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May 8, 2014 15:59
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Vintersorg posted:
This is hardly a gaming-exclusive thing, people who have paid for something feel obligated to get their money's worth from it even if they don't particularly enjoy or need it. Stringbean posted:So SL means nothing right, it's all about the Soul memory? I've got 1.8m sm and was wondering if I should just dump my souls into some more stats (Sitting on 200k souls, and I'm SL 123) Correct.
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May 8, 2014 16:02
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I'm a bit miffed that the Wanderer set is rather mediocre this time around. The Hexer set seems to be better in every way (but looks terrible).
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May 8, 2014 16:05
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^^^ Yeah Wanderer does look really  but has pretty awful stats. I want a nice duster! Fashion Souls.Stringbean posted:So SL means nothing right, it's all about the Soul memory? I've got 1.8m sm and was wondering if I should just dump my souls into some more stats (Sitting on 200k souls, and I'm SL 123) Lots of people keep saying SL doesn't matter, but the only official statement I've seen from FROM states explicitly that they do. That said, that statement did seem a little incomplete (It stated 10 SL levels when its more like 10 + 10% like DS1) but I wouldn't just assume that SL means absolutely nothing, people are getting carried away. That said, DS2 is longer and has more stats than DS1 so is totally expected that you'll go over SL120. I think 150 is a better PvP stopping point, but somebody will probably tell me I'm wrong.
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May 8, 2014 16:09
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:I'm a bit miffed that the Wanderer set is rather mediocre this time around. The Hexer set seems to be better in every way (but looks terrible). Sorry but the Hexer set is a cool set for cool dudes.
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May 8, 2014 16:09
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Zaphod42 posted:That said, DS2 is longer and has more stats than DS1 so is totally expected that you'll go over SL120. I think 150 is a better PvP stopping point, but somebody will probably tell me I'm wrong. I sure hope 150 SL is the PVP stopping point because I'm already above 120
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May 8, 2014 16:18
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Soul level as it is now has no meaning on whom you pvp with, only soul memory does. People stopping at specific soul level points do so usually because there's rapid diminishing returns on stat allocation and the increasingly higher price on leveling up.
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May 8, 2014 16:27
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Mundane is for gimmick builds where you have all stats at the same value. Sounds like for melee only builds infusions aren't that useful then except certain weapons. Should I bother with fire or lightning at all with both faith and intended remaining at 6?
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May 8, 2014 16:27
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Volt Catfish posted:I sure hope 150 SL is the PVP stopping point because I'm already above 120 You shouldn't stop and you really can't stop. The only thing that really matters is Soul Memory, and if you try to stick to 120, 150 or whatever, eventually you'll be left behind and end up fighting nothing but fast rolling Havelyn builds.
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May 8, 2014 16:29
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Finished the game, thoughts: The areas in this game were actually pretty cool, although on the whole it felt a little same-y and a lot less memorable than DS1. The Gutter was awesome, and Lost Bastille was cool just for the section with the exploding hollows which set me SUPER on edge. The dragon area owned. I think as it's been said before though, there was really weird transitions between zones and it didn't really tie into a cohesive whole. I really liked in DS1 how the undead burg tied neatly into a lot of the other areas on the game, or how you could see Lost Izalith from the Grave of Giants. The story in this game felt at the same time more present than in DS1 and on the whole a lot less cohesive. The tone felt a lot less bleak, mainly because of the really high NPC presence throughout the game, and the feeling that you've got the Emerald Warden and the firekeepers backing you up. It's a drastically less solitary experience. There were still some loving cool story moments though, such as finding Vendrick for the first time, holy gently caress. I don't get how the story goes from 'You've come here to cure your curse, so find the king' to something really bizarre about giants and the Throne of Want - seriously, what is that all about? What was up with the memories? What on earth was that all pointing to?. Bosses were all fairly cool. A few of them seemed drastically easier than anything I fought in DS1, perhaps because I was running a lightning spear build and sunlight spear seemed to almost 4 shot a few bosses.
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May 8, 2014 16:30
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Ulvirich posted:Soul level as it is now has no meaning on whom you pvp with, only soul memory does. People stopping at specific soul level points do so usually because there's rapid diminishing returns on stat allocation and the increasingly higher price on leveling up. As I said, the only official FROM statment I've seen or heard of states explicitly that SL does matter. So do you have proof to the contrary? I'm not saying its impossible, but I want some real evidence. There's a poo poo ton of gamer hearsay going around and that's all I hear.
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May 8, 2014 16:33
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Orv posted:When Internet Kraken says you're complaining about absurd things in the DkS2 thread, you have hosed up. This is a slam dunk of a statement.
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May 8, 2014 16:33
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Zaphod42 posted:^^^ Yeah Wanderer does look really There has been no official statements from From, only from a representative from Bamco, who said (and was quickly proven untrue) that matchmaking involved something like 20% within range of your SM and also involed a small SL range. Actual testing has shown that it is SM tiers (with the highest being around 12 mil+) and that the name-engraved ring widens these tiers a bit. Genocyber fucked around with this message at 16:37 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 16:35
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Is it just me, or is the Belfry just complete horseshit? It's a massive chore to even get to the boss door; I get invaded by two phantoms almost instantly when entering the area. Fighting one would be okay, two at a time is just annoying. So, or course I tried burning an effigy.. and it doesn't seem to work here at all, I got invaded instantly again. Wonderful. Finally one of my mad sprints to the fog door made it and I managed to actually fight the boss. Maybe I should just unplug my network cables in that hellhole.
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May 8, 2014 16:38
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Zaphod42 posted:As I said, the only official FROM statment I've seen or heard of states explicitly that SL does matter. http://illusorywall.tumblr.com/ has the testing Geno is referring to.
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May 8, 2014 16:38
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Zaphod42 posted:So do you have proof to the contrary? I'm not saying its impossible, but I want some real evidence. There's a poo poo ton of gamer hearsay going around and that's all I hear. Nah I don't, regarding SL, I've only got what second-third hand info I've gleaned from this thread and one of the wikis. 
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May 8, 2014 16:39
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Dropbear posted:Maybe I should just unplug my network cables in that hellhole. Well yeah, that's an option if the idea of Dark Souls being hard is too much for you to bear!
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May 8, 2014 16:41
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Reading the last page of people complaining about DS2's bosses, and comparing each of them to something done better/first in DS1, I do think about the Souls games having diminishing returns in that regard. Most people probably don't want radical changes to the basic gameplay, but it's difficult to design a boss within that construct that is challenging yet fair for both close-up strong melee fighters and hang-back lightning spearers. Most bosses in 2 seem pretty simple for one of those two groups. Artorias being very fast and aggressive was good, but they can't just copy/paste him into each boss in each game or you lose what made him memorable. Maneaters were creative and scary the first time, but now we've seen 2 then 4 gargoyles and 3 wardens and O+S and two throne watchers and so on. I imagine there'll be a Dark Souls 3, but I also foresee an even more magnified amount of dissatisfaction from folks who have now completely beaten 3 games worth of levels and bosses. Circle-strafing is everyone's default now for new bosses and it still pretty much works. From seems to either have to a) make the game that much harder for beginners and design things to thwart veterans' learned strategies or b) accept that if you've already beaten 45 bosses in the series there's a limited number of ways to challenge you without feeling 'cheap'. As much as people hated it, I'd be interested to see more varied arenas along the lines of Capra - very small arena where mobility and distance aren't really viable. A good boss room can save an otherwise boring fight - Adjudicator, Old Monk, Capra, Tower Knight. But even then, if you telegraph an attack even at all veterans will roll through it 95% of the time and complain the boss was easy. A tough situation for the devs to consider as the series matures. I like them mostly for the level/art design and feel of exploring a well-realized world, but I did find myself thinking with some of these posts, what WOULD'VE resulted in more player satisfaction in these threads? Thoughts? I see lots of unhappiness about the bosses being easy but fewer posts about what might've worked better. Better areas for the bosses to be in could've helped - a lot of big, round, circular rooms. Like Vendrick if he had had a few passageways to walk around that made it tougher to navigate around him and just sit on his ankle, or working poison statues in the Rotten that forced you into a corner or something. Maybe giving you less space for the throne watcher/defender or fighting Vengarl on a catwalk without sides.
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May 8, 2014 16:43
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Chomp8645 posted:Well yeah, that's an option if the idea of Dark Souls being hard is too much for you to bear! I'm far from some pro-Dark Souler, but fighting two phantoms at once seems nigh-impossible unless you luck into some completely inept ones or use one of the boring cheese builds. It's just weird the the item specifically made to avoid being bumrushed in a group doesn't work in the only area that has you getting bumrushed in a group the moment you enter it. I don't mind the rat-thing for example, since at least that's one-on-one so it's pretty fun (not counting the rats, because those aren't really an obstacle).
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May 8, 2014 16:46
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Operant posted:Finished the game, thoughts: On my first playthrough I thought the biggest weakness in the story was the moment you reach AD and it poops out an item and neither the item description or the AD tells you what to do with it. This weakness may actually extend back to when you first get the King's Ring (why are you going to all these king places anyway?), but when the AD failed to do any exposition at all despite all the effort taken to reach it (again "without really knowing why") it was pretty disappointing. What you are actually supposed to do is check in with Nashandra each time you do something significant post-Drangleic (but she only tells you where to go, not why except SEEK THE THRONE BRAVE UNDEAD). And there are other things that as you play slowly illuminate the whole story, but in my first playthrough it was all rather confusing and nonsensical. DS1 had Frampt who kindly
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May 8, 2014 16:48
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I was perfectly satisfied with the bosses in this game. Most of them weren't particularly challenging but I expected that given how much I've played Dks/Des. For most bosses I found fun in learning their patterns so I could beat them with low/no healing, and just for seeing what they could do. The latter especially, since From did try out a fair amount of things (multiple iterations on the "crowd boss" idea, for example). And there were enough difficult bosses to satisfy that desire; Ruin Sentinels, Smelter Demon, Velstadt, Lost Sinner, Executioner's Chariot, Belfry Gargoyles, and Darklurker.Dropbear posted:I'm far from some pro-Dark Souler, but fighting two phantoms at once seems nigh-impossible unless you luck into some completely inept ones or use one of the boring cheese builds. It's just weird the the item specifically made to avoid being bumrushed in a group doesn't work in the only area that has you getting bumrushed in a group the moment you enter it. I don't mind the rat-thing for example, since at least that's one-on-one so it's pretty fun (not counting the rats, because those aren't really an obstacle). 90% of the people you run into online are poo poo. Very rarely is it that you'll die if you know what you're doing. In the belfries especially, you have a huge advantage as you can just drop through floors and heal as you please, whereas the bellbros either cannot heal or have to rely on the slower/less effective miracles or Warmth.
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May 8, 2014 16:50
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Dropbear posted:Is it just me, or is the Belfry just complete horseshit? It's a massive chore to even get to the boss door; I get invaded by two phantoms almost instantly when entering the area. Fighting one would be okay, two at a time is just annoying. So, or course I tried burning an effigy.. and it doesn't seem to work here at all, I got invaded instantly again. Wonderful. Finally one of my mad sprints to the fog door made it and I managed to actually fight the boss.
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May 8, 2014 16:52
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I was a fan of a lot of the bosses in this game actually, it was more there were more than a couple (last boss, Vendrick, Veldstat, Last Giant, Giant Lord, Old Iron King, and the Rotten to some extent) that were kind of just circle strafe/dodge a big slow guy fights and more than a few of those and others such as the Guardian Dragon were completely trivialized by miracle casting. It took me like 2 goes to kill Veldstat, the first only because I died to his hex move just as I killed him. Last boss was a complete joke with Sunlight Spear.
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May 8, 2014 16:53
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