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Jesus, all it would take is 20 minutes for someone to boot up the game and play around in it to find out how dumb this is. Maybe MadMat could find time to do it in between ignoring forum posts he's supposedly reading.
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May 7, 2014 20:25
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DatonKallandor posted:Every time they add something because of "realism" reasons it ends badly. Because they simply don't test stuff. I gotta level with you mate, not 100%. My tests of tanks in ALB worked, but i'm not even sure that infantry bonus was in ALB at all either. I'm pretty confident that it doesn't apply to anything AA, or else people would have been flipping out about IHawks doing >10 damage at Hardened. I really doubt we would have missed that, but again, not 100%.
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May 7, 2014 20:32
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pedro0930 posted:If you upload a replay I can have a look at what went wrong. I use this replay upload site myself: Thanks for this by the way. It's a few days later but here is a replay from this morning. I am illegitimatt, in this game I'm using USSR armor. It's mostly all expensive, top end poo poo. It was a little hairy all game long because our third player dropped out before the game started and I didn't have time to finish picking units before the game started. I make a few mistakes - like getting way too aggressive with my SU-27PUs at one point. Recon at several points is something of a weakness. I do think that my pub teammate and I did a pretty effective job of working together. One attack I am curious about, or that I don't really understand what happened and why, are at the very beginning - where I don't understand how what seems to be should be a slaughter becomes an even trade. The other is the total collapse of the large central attack at replay timer 29:00 or so. I was under the impression, at this point, that my opponents were more or less fully committed to the attack on the flank that had taken the side spawn away from my teammate, and the battle was mostly taking part on the flanks. To this point in the game, I thought I had traded quite favorably with them and was beginning to amass a material lead. I had also shot down a number of A-10s and other advanced aircraft at this point and felt confident enough to basically fully commit in a large armored thrust aimed at their spawn point. They made it about three kilometers before being completely enveloped and destroyed. I don't really get why.
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May 7, 2014 22:11
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Xerxes17 posted:http://www.wargame-ee.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=155&t=45059 The best part was the Moderator's half assed defence of the status quo
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May 7, 2014 22:54
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Silenced SMG's are 100% fine  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0-uAVCpyEY Dandywalken fucked around with this message at 23:24 on May 7, 2014 |
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May 7, 2014 23:21
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New idea: Give Delta Force the Flash instead of an MG.
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May 7, 2014 23:41
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Floated the idea a bunch, but with no luck. Deltas were assigned an obsolete "early-game reinforcement point camper" for maps like ALB's Highway to Oslo. It was a stupidly niche role. They're being revised, hopefully, with a more suitable role. Not with a Flash though  Honest to god, I say give em a new niche. They'd be the "Oh god drat it I didnt know this town was garrisoned now we're all hosed!" defenders/assaulters with Silenced SMG's, Flashbang grenades from W:EE, and a few AT4's. Dandywalken fucked around with this message at 23:48 on May 7, 2014 |
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May 7, 2014 23:46
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SEALs deserve the silenced SMGs more to be honest, being a recon unit and all. I'd rather Deltas just be your generic elite infantry but with a machine gun and LAW that puts them on par with the others.
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May 8, 2014 00:27
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Silenced SMGs just don't make sense to me in Wargame. The idea that you could have an entire platoon of soldiers firing their weapons, silenced or not, and not know where it's coming from... it's farcical. Quite aside from realism concerns like the fact that most silenced weapons aren't silent, just a bit quieter than normal guns. These guys being effectively broken was something I think we all saw coming, and I hope they reverse this and get rid of the whole silenced-weapons mechanic entirely tbh.
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May 8, 2014 00:44
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After the SEAD buff I've been taking radar AA out of my tryhard decks. I've been losing a full card of Shilkas screening for BUKs in recent games. And given we know that veterancy bonuses apply to all infantry HE damage, Veteran manpads like Iglas look a whole lot more deadly vs planes at 5.2 damage than at 4.
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May 8, 2014 01:20
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JeffersonClay posted:After the SEAD buff I've been taking radar AA out of my tryhard decks. I've been losing a full card of Shilkas screening for BUKs in recent games. And given we know that veterancy bonuses apply to all infantry HE damage, Veteran manpads like Iglas look a whole lot more deadly vs planes at 5.2 damage than at 4. Yeah I dunno if they buffed SEAD blast radius or something, I've been losing lines of Shilkas to one strike (I know, hit the spread button).
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May 8, 2014 01:27
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John Charity Spring posted:Silenced SMGs just don't make sense to me in Wargame. The idea that you could have an entire platoon of soldiers firing their weapons, silenced or not, and not know where it's coming from... it's farcical. Quite aside from realism concerns like the fact that most silenced weapons aren't silent, just a bit quieter than normal guns. These guys being effectively broken was something I think we all saw coming, and I hope they reverse this and get rid of the whole silenced-weapons mechanic entirely tbh. Silenced SMGs are like the only really silent weapons though because you have a pistol round in a gun that is huge relative to the charge being fired. There's a lot of room for integrated suppression. I believe all the silenced SMGs in the game are integrated suppression which are truly quiet. It's like the MP-5S being famously so quiet that the loudest sound they couldn't eliminate is the bolt moving, and they dampened that a bit too. It's because when you design a longarm sized weapon to dampen the noise from a very small cartridge it actually works. Realism arguments aside, I think the idea has merit, it's just obviously implemented poorly and might be so incompatible with the way town fights work that they have to drop it. I know I've had ridiculous line of sight issues with non-infantry units in towns that for whatever reason can't shoot at me and they're almost never spotted until they shoot at something. I agree the SEAD buff is nuts. It's virtually impossible for SEAD planes to lose the attrition fight with radar installations unless they go full retard and make a pass over a half dozen angry IR seekers.
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May 8, 2014 01:30
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Arglebargle III posted:Silenced SMGs are like the only really silent weapons though because you have a pistol round in a gun that is huge relative to the charge being fired. There's a lot of room for integrated suppression. I believe all the silenced SMGs in the game are integrated suppression which are truly quiet. It's like the MP-5S being famously so quiet that the loudest sound they couldn't eliminate is the bolt moving, and they dampened that a bit too. It's because when you design a longarm sized weapon to dampen the noise from a very small cartridge it actually works. Only with subsonic ammo which isn't very lethal at all and has a pretty awful trajectory. I have to agree with John Charity Spring, from a game perspective, with the way noise works, I don't think it's a very good idea.
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May 8, 2014 01:35
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So, in terms of evaluating the use of an infantry unit, here's me spitballing on what it looks likecode:2. Holy poo poo this stat is completely loving opaque in every way. 3. It's mostly obvious, but ROF for autocannons is enough of a clusterfuck to keep it from being obvious. 4. This statline is so incredibly dishonest. 5. It'd rank higher if it wasn't so frequently 10. If (2) wasn't already mentioned, i would have ranked it differently. 6. You can at least tell whether you have AT weapons or MANPADs or napalm, so that's nice, but things like silenced SMGs and and the damage multiplier on MANPADs keeps it out of the clear. 7. Even the godlike intellect of goons has been insufficient to pierce the mystery of whether or not infantry use eyes to see. Like seriously we're basically fumbling around in the dark, and we're probably more informed than the designers. Dandywalken posted:Floated the idea a bunch, but with no luck. Deltas were assigned an obsolete "early-game reinforcement point camper" for maps like ALB's Highway to Oslo. It was a stupidly niche role. They're being revised, hopefully, with a more suitable role. Not with a Flash though Why the hell do we have so many subspecialities of spec ops (and of like every loving thing)? Increasing the number of balls juggled just increases the chances you'll drop them.
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May 8, 2014 01:41
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Yep. I've wished we just had an Anti-Inf SF, Anti-Tank SF, Recon SF for each nation, but meh. Flavor lol.
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May 8, 2014 02:24
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Mortabis posted:Only with subsonic ammo which isn't very lethal at all and has a pretty awful trajectory. It may well be unworkable but it's not an inherently terrible idea is all.
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May 8, 2014 02:43
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anything involving not being able to shoot back at something attacking you is a terrible idea the atgm thing is bad enough
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May 8, 2014 03:20
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I mean obviously silenced weapons broken as hell and completely exploitable in that current state, but at the same time that could cause some massive pubbie rage which is something to be admired and with some balancing might not be such a OP concept. Anyways, hopefully Eugen do the sensible thing and implement that tank rebalance, because otherwise this metagame is gonna be loving doomed to vehicle atgm & ww2 tank spam. Then again :eugen: might be to jaded to care.
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May 8, 2014 03:41
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:anything involving not being able to shoot back at something attacking you is a terrible idea Well we already have sniper teams that do exactly the same thing from 1000 meters but slower, and these silenced special forces have significantly worse stealth than them but would do damage much faster. I think the idea is that these guys would penetrate infantry screens without optics (like reservists) without showing up as a blip on the minimap and be sneaky special forces ninjas in that way, but be just as detectable to optics as any other infantry unit. In practice it seems like they're loving invisible cartoon ninjas who can have recon units sitting on top of them and avoid sight. In that video, they weren't even visible when moving between city blocks which suggests something stupid is going on with stats modifiers beyond the possible problem of line-of-sight spotting within cities. It may be that this is just a stat interaction fuckup that Eugen didn't test but can fix with five minutes and a text editor, or it may be that it's genuinely unworkable and there's no way to make them use their weapons to remain stealthy without breaking the game. It definitely isn't a pressing problem though so if they can't fix it they can just drop it. Nobody was saying that Li Jian or SBS weren't good enough at infiltration. Just a reminder: Li Jian means Sharp Swords, which is badass name for a special forces unit.
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May 8, 2014 05:28
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Mortabis posted:Only with subsonic ammo which isn't very lethal at all and has a pretty awful trajectory. MP-5SD uses standard ammunition. 
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May 8, 2014 05:52
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Should have given silencer buff to the sniper rifles on 2 man recon squads, that way they would actually be able to use their weapon without dying instantly.
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May 8, 2014 05:54
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RoyalScion posted:Should have given silencer buff to the sniper rifles on 2 man recon squads, that way they would actually be able to use their weapon without dying instantly. No but you see it is way harder to detect hundreds of rounds coming at you from the house across the street than it is a single bullet from over a kilometer away. 
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May 8, 2014 06:13
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Having suppressed weapons only firing at you is fairly disorienting in real life, though. I can't say that I know this completely, but I've been led to believe that the origin of fire in urban terrain can be really hard to pinpoint when it is supressed. The sound is difficult to locate and the lack of proper muzzle flashes make finding the guys from those hundreds of windows really hard. A lot of engagements are done by shooting where everyone else is shooting and where you think you are getting shot at. If you lack these two things, it can be suoer hard to shoot at anything.
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May 8, 2014 07:21
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if return fire against silenced weapons was inaccurate that'd be one thing. but that's not how stealth works, your guys just sit there jacking off.
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May 8, 2014 07:25
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Really it's just hideously player unfriendly and cranks up the micro of the game. It's the first time i've actually felt like the teleporting mechanic worked against the game.
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May 8, 2014 08:34
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:One attack I am curious about, or that I don't really understand what happened and why, are at the very beginning - where I don't understand how what seems to be should be a slaughter becomes an even trade. Ok, I watched it a couple times and this is my observation. First both you and ledarsi (NATO player that went to Elena) had no recon among your starting force going to Elena. This combined with the building clusters in Elena means the first engagement happened at fairly close range. But at least you were already starting to disperse and shooting while ledarsi keep driving into your guns. To the engagement itself: Your T80Us spend their first shots firing Reflex missiles at enemy AA unit (you probably used attack-move here, AI prioritize easy to kill and high value target) in the back instead of firing at the cluster of M2A2s to suppress them. This allowed the M2A2s to fire their first volley while still maintaining decent morale (only 1 was panicked), this might not even matter because TOW-2 is super accurate and the engagement was at close range for those TOW-2 anyways. So one of your T80U just exploded immediately after eating 3 TOW-2s. Your T80U cost a whooping 170 points while a M2A2 cost only 35, and ledarsi only had 8 of them. Then your AA units kept moving forward instead of retreating behind the cover of the buildings in Elena, so most of them were picked off by yet more TOW-2 from those M2A2. Half way through the engagement, enemy force going to Center joined the fight and picked off yet more units from the forest between Center and Elena (and your T80U would of died if it didn't veer off the road to go between those buildings, shielding it from the fire coming out of Center. Actually if Rykmentti (player at Center) had been more aggressive and just attack-move into Elena from the forest you would have lost your entire starting force. (He later moved his Japanese heavy tank up and killed your T80U anyways) So the result of the first fight was actually exactly like what it looked like, a fairly even trade (that is, both of you lost most of your starting force.) But yes, it could be a slaughter in your favor if your T80Us didn't spend the first crucial seconds shooting at the chaparrals in the back. Next we'll have a look at your attack that happened at the 29min mark This is what you saw:  This is what the enemy position looked like:  So you basically got shot up as you advance from the enemy on both side of Elena. The position in the forest with Type 90 and IFV were just deleting your entire chaff force on the left without even being spotted half the time. One of your T80U got too close to the buildings on their side of the Elena and was killed by riflemen with LAW. The rest of the attack was picked apart by a bunch of choppers (this was probably the mean killer) and bombers. When the M1A1s and A-10 showed up the fight was already over. Lastly, the action leading up to the last attack was actually fairly light. The only big ticket item besides the jets (and most of the jets were shot down trying to bomb your incursion into Center and evac'd into Elena) that was destroyed was a single M1A1. In fact they pretty much just fortified their side of Elena and picked off AA unit they could see the entire time while focusing on elsewhere. The only big ticket unit that was destroyed beside jets is a single M1A1. Although they were probably a bit surprised by the attack, since you kept your build up fairly well hidden. In conclusion, what you needed was better recon coverage, prioritizing target for your unit, and longer range anti-helicopter AA like Tunguska-M (alright, you actually had one that I think was going to be in the attack, but it got picked off by artillery). Your units in too many instances couldn't return fire. A recon chopper or well positioned recon infantry could of prevented a lot of that. Your objective were also too ambitious. Help your teammate defend the side point or coordinate an attack earlier on Center (since your teammate secured a hefty foothold early in the game) were both more attainable than going for a spawn that's both really drat far away and you have little intel on. pedro0930 fucked around with this message at 12:01 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 09:57
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I'm pushing to have the Mi-24V repurposed to carrying 4xR-60M & 4xKokon. http://www.wargame-ee.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=155&t=45104 I wonder if it can make one page without "pact bias" as response.
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May 8, 2014 14:38
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Don't you think you should pick your battles? Is the F-4EJ KAI a line bomber? I'm trying to fine decent Blue Dragon strike planes and striking out.
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May 8, 2014 15:03
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Have some graphs about assault rifle performance and the damage bonus: Here we have examples of baseline (rookie) performance (solid lines), at the highest vet you can take them in a standard deck (dashed lines), and at the highest vet you can take them in a standard deck with damage bonus (dotted lines). Cumbersome, I know. Here we have a much simpler graph, what would it look like if all assault rifles are at elite, before and after the damage bonus. 
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May 8, 2014 15:08
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This is taking into account accuracy?
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May 8, 2014 15:22
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Yes. E: As you can see in the first chart, the dashed ones flatline earlier, hitting the cap. This is because of the accuracy bonus from veterancy. The damage bonus simply shifts the whole formation upwards by the appropriate multiplier. It's kind of a bit silly though because it's a applying a bigger multiplier to a bigger baseline-stat. Shanakin fucked around with this message at 15:27 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 15:25
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pedro0930 posted:In conclusion, what you needed was better recon coverage, prioritizing target for your unit, and longer range anti-helicopter AA like Tunguska-M (alright, you actually had one that I think was going to be in the attack, but it got picked off by artillery). Your units in too many instances couldn't return fire. A recon chopper or well positioned recon infantry could of prevented a lot of that. Your objective were also too ambitious. Help your teammate defend the side point or coordinate an attack earlier on Center (since your teammate secured a hefty foothold early in the game) were both more attainable than going for a spawn that's both really drat far away and you have little intel on. Thanks so much for your analysis here. I really appreciate it!
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May 8, 2014 15:59
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One thing that is extremely helpful when learning (or even just generally), is to watch the replay again, but from the view of the opposition. It tends to really highlight your mistakes for your, and also helps show up weaknesses.
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May 8, 2014 16:02
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So on the Eugen forums there's a thread where they have put some suggested decks ready for import. http://www.wargame-ee.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=155&t=45048 This is an Armored USSR deck from that chest-beating ~pro player~ Sparouw. http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/794067979509623750/D8ABB8E099EBD43A3EA1EBBA40B1759A6F8C86A9/ It explains so loving much. 
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May 8, 2014 18:05
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Xerxes17 posted:So on the Eugen forums there's a thread where they have put some suggested decks ready for import. The deck does feel weak, but I can't quite put a finger on why. Maybe it's a lack of capability outside of the few high-end tanks? I don't really run armored decks, though. Can somebody who does post their own for comparison and explain where Sparouw goes awry?
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May 8, 2014 18:09
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Xerxes17 posted:It explains so loving much. Use the VEH tab? Nah, just go armored for a slight improvement in high-end tanks. It has no speed, and does nothing the USSR does particularly well. A deck like this could be done better with Red Dragons or the component countries.
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May 8, 2014 18:11
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To ask a noobish question, what is the best way to recon forest? I've played a few matches where I've been trying to hold towns surrounded by forests with scattered recon infantry and jeeps surrounding it, but the enemy still manages to sneak in SF units through the woods without my knowing.
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May 8, 2014 18:12
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Well the first thing he's doing wrong is running an armored deck for reasons that dont involve fuckin around. He doesn't even use any of the extra slots ffs it is literally pointless for him to use armored.
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May 8, 2014 18:12
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Agean90 posted:Well the first thing he's doing wrong is running an armored deck for reasons that don't involve fuckin around. Yeah, he could make that deck again as a unspecialized one and loose nothing at all, it would even be better! TOR, MSTA-S, BTR infantry, etc. Edit: I Wish we could have posted this in the Tanks thread when he was massively making GBS threads it up. Because this picture alone shows he's god zero loving idea about tanks/armored. Xerxes17 fucked around with this message at 18:22 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 18:16
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Xerxes17 posted:Yeah, he could make that deck again as a national one and loose nothing at all, it would even be better! TOR, MSTA-S, BTR infantry, etc. Wait, he's not even using the USSR prototypes? Then why make a pure USSR deck? Oh well, at least I noticed that the only strong point in the deck were those 6 high end T-80s. I'm getting better!
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May 8, 2014 18:20
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