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A
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May 8, 2014 15:00
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 12:45 |
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B
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May 8, 2014 15:05
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Definitely B.
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May 8, 2014 15:06
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I vote for B. But I also want to save the HRE mechanics for the arabs. Can I vote that we do B with just a regular japanese korean alliance?
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May 8, 2014 15:06
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B and Helen Israel.
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May 8, 2014 15:56
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Man, I'm torn. Like A's Ming more, like B's Korea/Japan/Ainu more.
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May 8, 2014 16:51
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A
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May 8, 2014 16:58
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Voting B, but with some elements of A - the other Asian states hold more of Ming's usual territory, but Ming holds more territory further - the inner yoke of the Frontier that we didn't see, unlike the outer parts which collapsed into states simply associated with the Chinese, like more of Tibet, central Asia, and some of Siberia, alongside maybe even a few holdings in India. I don't think the HRE should be used there - thus far I still see the best candidate for that as the heavily fragmented and balkanized states of Arabia and Persia. Our Seljuk/Saimid/Fatimid/whatever other named friends, who should be restored to the Ottoman Empire since let's face it, those crazy national ideas are a pretty drat good reward for whoever units those states. Tripled manpower while in a war against any non-Sunni  ...just as well, the Unify Islam thing should not be including...like, those random not-at-all-Islamic places in Europe. Palermo and Cordoba make some sense in usual EUIV? But not in ours, really.
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May 8, 2014 17:05
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A
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May 8, 2014 17:12
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A.
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May 8, 2014 17:13
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Gyra_Solune posted:Voting B, but with some elements of A - the other Asian states hold more of Ming's usual territory, but Ming holds more territory further - the inner yoke of the Frontier that we didn't see, unlike the outer parts which collapsed into states simply associated with the Chinese, like more of Tibet, central Asia, and some of Siberia, alongside maybe even a few holdings in India. I don't think the HRE should be used there - thus far I still see the best candidate for that as the heavily fragmented and balkanized states of Arabia and Persia. Our Seljuk/Saimid/Fatimid/whatever other named friends, who should be restored to the Ottoman Empire since let's face it, those crazy national ideas are a pretty drat good reward for whoever units those states. Tripled manpower while in a war against any non-Sunni Maybe a Caliphate sort of thing as a more generic term than the Ottoman Empire? But yeah, that sounds really cool. It'll also give states in that area something to do other than be eaten by us. Voting A.
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May 8, 2014 17:30
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I'm voting for
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May 8, 2014 17:31
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Ah, why the hell not. Gotta go with my main man Zheng He.
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May 8, 2014 17:35
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Current voting subtotals: A: 12 B: 22
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May 8, 2014 17:52
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Voting B
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May 8, 2014 18:05
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VOTE B
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May 8, 2014 18:09
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A
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May 8, 2014 18:13
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A. Inwards-facing China sounds boring. The rest of B is interesting enough, but not enough to make up for near-OTL China, IMO.
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May 8, 2014 18:24
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B
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May 8, 2014 18:26
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A
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May 8, 2014 19:13
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My mandate is that B is going to need to get going.
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May 8, 2014 19:16
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By the way, here's a preview of our starting situation in 1444. Borders, etc., are still subject to tweaking and balancing, of course.
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May 8, 2014 22:40
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I really like how both scenarios sound, so I'm going to go ahead and abstain for now.
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May 8, 2014 22:50
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I'd make A case, but I am tired.
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May 8, 2014 23:00
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One is interesting and makes sense given how CKII went. The other is "Let's inexplicably make the supposed-superpower Ming exactly like vanilla EUIV, but with a bunch of civil wars on top of it!" Somehow the second is enjoying a landslide victory.
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May 8, 2014 23:00
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I do think you should shorten Kiev to just Kiev. Our direct domain is a bit smaller than I'd thought, actually, and I hadn't known there was such a directly large state in the Turkish region, as I'd figured that Ming Frontier territory was a bunch of smaller states. Who is that anyway? Damascus or so? Whoever they are, I guess they can start the game as the Caliph of the Holy Sunni Caliphate, since it looks very much like they're the Austria of the group.
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May 8, 2014 23:00
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Flesnolk posted:One is interesting and makes sense given how CKII went. The other is "Let's inexplicably make the supposed-superpower Ming exactly like vanilla EUIV, but with a bunch of civil wars on top of it!" Giving them western tech growth is a bigger advantage than any amount of territory-- they're not going to perform poorly in either. That said A.
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May 8, 2014 23:04
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Flesnolk posted:One is interesting and makes sense given how CKII went. The other is "Let's inexplicably make the supposed-superpower Ming exactly like vanilla EUIV, but with a bunch of civil wars on top of it!" Well after deciding to call ourselves "Rome" I don't think we care about interesting situations. Ming can get hosed for all I care, especially after the clusterfuck it brought.
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May 8, 2014 23:04
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Voting A
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May 8, 2014 23:54
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Gonna go with A
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May 9, 2014 00:35
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Adept Nightingale posted:Giving them western tech growth is a bigger advantage than any amount of territory-- they're not going to perform poorly in either. It's pretty much this. They're honestly likely to crush Tibet and the Uyghers unless the AI screws up.
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May 9, 2014 00:37
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Well after deciding to call ourselves "Rome" I don't think we care about interesting situations. Ming can get hosed for all I care, especially after the clusterfuck it brought. That makes precisely zero sense. The name of our empire has nothing to do with "interesting situations".
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May 9, 2014 00:39
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Flesnolk posted:That makes precisely zero sense. The name of our empire has nothing to do with "interesting situations". Restoring Rome in CK2 requires a lot more land than we took, and we voted to restore it regardless through an endgame vote. That's probably where he's coming from - we didn't exactly earn it legit.
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May 9, 2014 00:41
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AdventFalls posted:Restoring Rome in CK2 requires a lot more land than we took, and we voted to restore it regardless through an endgame vote. That's probably where he's coming from - we didn't exactly earn it legit. There is nothing wrong with being a geographically confused anachronism held together by momentum until we explode in the most amazing springtime of nations ever in Victoria II.
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May 9, 2014 00:43
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Voting B.
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May 9, 2014 01:13
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I vote for B
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May 9, 2014 01:15
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AdventFalls posted:Restoring Rome in CK2 requires a lot more land than we took, and we voted to restore it regardless through an endgame vote. That's probably where he's coming from - we didn't exactly earn it legit. "Restoring Rome" is more than just changing a name on the map, though-- it also gives you tons of prestige, a special title for your ruler, powerful CBs to continue eating the rest of the world, a different idea set of ludicrously overpowered ideas in EU4, etc.— and narratively it means everyone in Western Europe being all like, "Well, poo poo, I guess those Greeks over there in the East really are the real Roman Empire." We aren't getting any of those gameplay perks, and in the narrative various other rulers-- the Holy Roman Emperor, the Tsars of Kiev, Third Rome, the Pope, and others-- are all still standing by their own claims to the Roman legacy. That vote was just about having our name on the map in EU4 and the name everyone calls the empire be the same thing, and ending the thing we saw in some posts where some contemporary sources called the empire "Byzantium" and some called it the "Roman Empire" by solidly going for one or the other. The term "Byzantine Empire" has a slightly different meaning in ByzLP world than it does in OTL, since it was used by some contemporary Byzantines and wasn't just made up centuries later by some historians-- but most people in the empire probably still would have just gone on calling it the "Roman Empire" all this time, just like in the real Byzantine Empire.
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May 9, 2014 01:30
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Yeah, I guess it goes without saying that in addition to not being the "Roman Empire" you get by converting the restored Empire over from CK2, we also are certainly not the "Byzantine Empire" of the time period either. We're a tougher, more hardened, but also more progressive state than the OTL Byzantium was, with our own ideas and legacy. We're more like... honestly, the Ottoman Empire than we are like the "Byzantine" or "Roman" Empires as they're most well known. And I'd say that's a good thing, because look what it got us; merchant republics, the Tri-Lingual Literacy Act, the Valerian Order, etc.
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May 9, 2014 02:03
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A. Maximum Ming. Zhongwen Universialis.
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May 9, 2014 02:06
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 12:45 |
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Putting down my vote for A.
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May 9, 2014 02:44
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