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I hope that, once he learns this super cool technique, he makes an effort to establish a decent baseline of stats. I mean, it's not like he has a ton of goals at the moment besides just being really great at killing illusions. He wants to defend himself if he's going to be a target, and he wants to help Blues Brother's daughter, but it's not like, you know, something in his quest log. He could be extraordinary at everything, relative to normal people, by spending a few hours grinding.
Arsonist Daria fucked around with this message at 10:30 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 10:27
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How exactly is a summon going to help him not get killed, anyway? He talks about it tanking for him but real life doesn't have aggro management; anyone with a brain is still just going to try to make him into a fine paste even if he summons a beefy dude to fight for him.
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May 9, 2014 10:44
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A big flaming stink posted:How exactly is a summon going to help him not get killed, anyway? He talks about it tanking for him but real life doesn't have aggro management; anyone with a brain is still just going to try to make him into a fine paste even if he summons a beefy dude to fight for him. Hunter x Hunter has a guy with pet skills and he handles this issue with a skill allowing him to switch places with his summons at any time, letting them take the hit for him. Jeehan really needs some teleport skills. Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I hope that, once he learns this super cool technique, he makes an effort to establish a decent baseline of stats. I mean, it's not like he has a ton of goals at the moment besides just being really great at killing illusions. He wants to defend himself if he's going to be a target, and he wants to help Blues Brother's daughter, but it's not like, you know, something in his quest log. He could be extraordinary at everything, relative to normal people, by spending a few hours grinding. Honestly, I sorta side with the min-maxers on this. You're completely right that he could be super at everything relative to a normal person, but that doesn't get him very far when the people trying to kill him would still be way ahead of him. Yeah, it's useful for him to at least figure out what the different stats do and things like that, but generally he's probably best off creating a "focused build". Even if he's twice as fast as Usain Bolt, if he's still too slow to dodge a killing blow from a hunter then it doesn't do him any good. And the worst part is that he'd have to take away time & resources from training Int, his main stat, if he wants to ever improve that dodge skill. If he instead makes an Int-based magical dodge skill, it'll synergize much better with the rest of his stuff, like the mana and magic breathing passives. Even if it seems reasonable to train his physical stats up to a baseline level, it's not clear that he'd get anything worthwhile out of it that wouldn't be better served by just using that same training on his magic skills. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 10:51 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 10:49
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XboxPants posted:It's really not, if your metabolism is all jacked up it'll leave you feeling very sluggish. Exercise and diet also have very direct effects on neurochemistry. quote:I agree that this kinda stuff probably doesn't have a place in this webtoon but in the real world it's anything but a load of trash. But the MC already has a body that is in the top 1%, AND he has access to passive that negates problem from health too. At this point, it doesn't do jack Twiddy posted:
There is a difference between not having a body that's out of whack and having olympic-level body. He already has almost-olympic level, so at this point he is just going to hit dimnishing returns when it comes to having a healthy mind. Basically, while i totally agree that having a unhealthy body can lead to a unhealthy mind, the difference between your average exercising person (and MC is already in the top 1% of the population) and a olympic athlete aren't worth speaking about when it comes to "healthy mind".
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May 9, 2014 11:02
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XboxPants posted:Even if it seems reasonable to train his physical stats up to a baseline level, it's not clear that he'd get anything worthwhile out of it that wouldn't be better served by just using that same training on his magic skills. Scratch it I guess he's at that point? I'd probably want a few more points in agility so he can run faster, but other than that intelligence primary wisdom secondary train full speed ahead. That said, all the point in my first paragraph are still important. I'm really curious what return each point in stat gives. Just from my memory, korean MMOs tend to have increasing returns on their stats, further enforcing the whole "all points in one stat" train. EDIT: Arkeus posted:There is a difference between not having a body that's out of whack and having olympic-level body. He already has almost-olympic level, so at this point he is just going to hit dimnishing returns when it comes to having a healthy mind. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 11:13 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 11:03
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Twiddy posted:While all of you what said is very true, statistically, all my gamer instincts are making me really gunshy about going all in on his magic. More importantly, he doesn't know all the specifics of what he may might be up against. As soon as runs into someone that has a simple ability like "cancels magic" he would be straight up dead. We can't really talk numbers because it's not clear yet what the trade offs are in this scenario (for example, if a stat gets increasingly expensive, losing 1 int in the interest of getting a few more points in dexterity and strength or whatever might be worth it). It'll be a lot more difficult to justify if he has to give up 1 int for 1 str. Yeah that's probably some really good points. I guess the "magic can handle everything" argument works great in theory, but not in practice. What I mean is, I think it's true that any obstacle he comes across, he could beat with magic... but that's only if he's prepared! It takes him a long time to develop and train a new skill. If he comes up against something, like you said, that somehow gets around all his magic defenses then he's totally hosed, probably in one hit. Over time, he'd eventually overcome any obstacle, but not necessarily on the first fight. Basically the "all-in on magic" theory works super good in a setting like an MMO where you have unlimited retries/respawns, but in the real world where he only gets one shot he better have a loving back-up plan.
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May 9, 2014 11:11
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Arkeus posted:'Health mind in a healthy body' is a whole load of trash in real life, and is even worse in this webtoon where he already has passives that grants him that. If you mean a -smart- mind, that would be INT or WIS. Your brain is an entirely chemical system; if you're not supplying it with the right supply of essential amino acids/glucose/vitamins then it will not work at peak, and the way in which cortisol/other glucocorticoid stress hormones gently caress with your short and long-term memory means that 'healthy mind in a healthy body' is fairly accurate up to a certain minimum standard of self-care. Twiddy posted:This reads a lot more reasonably than "a healthy mind means a healthy body is a load of trash." I am curious to what degree the results diminish from healthy fitness level to olympian level, but there probably aren't enough studies on that (if any). It's impossible to fully characterize this because we don't even absolutely understand the brain's metabolic needs, but some degree of physical activity is beneficial in that it helps control hormone/monoamine transmission levels which heavily affect your ability to concentrate and focus. Dehydration and malnutrition will also wreck your brain. In general though, I don't think that there's much evidence that anything beyond an hour of moderate exercise a day, lots of water, and a solid diet/vitamin intake will directly benefit your cognition. Sitting on your rear end chugging sodas will gently caress your ability to think clearly though. Tolth fucked around with this message at 11:27 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 11:24
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:It was in the box of books that they let him try to learn. I'm pretty sure they don't mind since they just handed it to him. I think it's up in the air. He could join the clan, right? If not, they still might let him learn the book. Either way, his goal seems to be to get his INT up to that level first and foremost. What he's not doing is getting more info on the Abyss and who and what might be coming after him. Instead, he's playing on eByssbay and worrying about girls. Really? An 18-year old boy worrying about girls? Get real, Manhwa! Any ideas why our Noona-Witch-of-Massacre says "humans" like she's not one? Is this a translation issue or is she not one herself? I wonder.
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May 9, 2014 11:42
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I think if it's not a translation issue then it's going to be one of those 'distant from humanity' things. She is called the witch of massacre, and she's probably quite immoral.
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May 9, 2014 12:19
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What does "Witch of Massacre" even mean? She's the Mass Murder Witch? It's her job as the Massacring Mage? The Mistress of Mayhem and the Wicked Witch of loving Your poo poo Up? She's the wily wizard who hails from the town of Massacre Gulch, up the ways from Slaughter Valley?
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May 9, 2014 14:59
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DrSunshine posted:What does "Witch of Massacre" even mean? She's the Mass Murder Witch? It's her job as the Massacring Mage? The Mistress of Mayhem and the Wicked Witch of loving Your poo poo Up? She's the wily wizard who hails from the town of Massacre Gulch, up the ways from Slaughter Valley? Presumably she's a witch, but one that's known for massacre.
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May 9, 2014 15:02
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XboxPants posted:Yeah that's probably some really good points. I guess the "magic can handle everything" argument works great in theory, but not in practice. The problem is that if he comes against someone who can take care of all of his magical defenses but also put a minimum of points into Physical Combat abilities, it's only going to help him if the enemy is like 30 levels under him. It's just not going to change anything, and the 'right' counter is basically to have contingency-type teleport home or some such. Or have friends like Sun-hil who take care of the physical stuff. quote:Basically the "all-in on magic" theory works super good in a setting like an MMO where you have unlimited retries/respawns, but in the real world where he only gets one shot he better have a loving back-up plan. Yeah, but that's true for everything. You just can't make a character that's flat out immune to everything from the start. Tolth posted:Your brain is an entirely chemical system; if you're not supplying it with the right supply of essential amino acids/glucose/vitamins then it will not work at peak, and the way in which cortisol/other glucocorticoid stress hormones gently caress with your short and long-term memory means that 'healthy mind in a healthy body' is fairly accurate up to a certain minimum standard of self-care. Yes, i should have been clearer that i disliked the phrasing and how it was used. I strongly believe that an unhealthy body can lead to an unhealthy mind, i just don't like "a healthy mind in a healthy body" because it leaves what is considered a "healthy body" way too ambiguous. People were talking about jason bourne level for 'healthy body', so... Arkeus fucked around with this message at 15:05 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 15:03
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Arkeus posted:The problem is that if he comes against someone who can take care of all of his magical defenses but also put a minimum of points into Physical Combat abilities, it's only going to help him if the enemy is like 30 levels under him. Do we know that for sure? Also, I'm not arguing it'll help him do anything offensive, just defense and evasion and taking hits. Maybe hold on a little longer until help arrives. I feel like it'd be really useful if he didn't just get killed the first time if he gets hit with his guard down, and moving from "killed in one shot" to "killed in two shots" might not require that much stat investment. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 15:14 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 15:06
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DrSunshine posted:What does "Witch of Massacre" even mean? She's the Mass Murder Witch? It's her job as the Massacring Mage? The Mistress of Mayhem and the Wicked Witch of loving Your poo poo Up? She's the wily wizard who hails from the town of Massacre Gulch, up the ways from Slaughter Valley? In the chapter where she's introduced, she basically talks about how she and her warrior are basically specialized for killing lots of weaklings. Thus, Witch of Slaughter. For what the Black Summoner hired her for (weeding out the incoming swarms of hunters), she's basically ideal. Means he doesn't have to worry about a stray low-rank getting lucky. His precise motive for doing so isn't completely clear. It could be to protect the person who's been healing his daughter, or to protect his daughter, or to just not have all those assholes running around in his way.
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May 9, 2014 15:12
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XboxPants posted:Do we know that for sure? Just from a gaming point of view, moving from one hit to two hits is probably the single biggest stat investment that anything could ever possibly require. I think people in this thread are much too worried about some hypothetical "mana void" attack from an enemy. What you have to realize though is that strength uses mana too. It's not like his buddy is a normal human in excellent physical condition or anything: they're clearly using ancient chi techniques to improve their bodies. Raising his strength is in essence raising his strength magically, because the Gamer ability is itself magic. A true mana void attack would negate any strength boosts as well.
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May 9, 2014 15:13
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Clarste posted:Just from a gaming point of view, moving from one hit to two hits is probably the single biggest stat investment that anything could ever possibly require. I guess Korean MMOs might be like this but this is definitely not true in every game. In many, many games the only way for your character to be one-shottable is if you never put any effort into building their defenses, exactly as Jee-han is doing. There's also a difference between "one shottable by powerful attacks" and "one-shottable by every attack". If he could at least get his HP to the point that he can survive a hit from a regular attack, even if special moves still kill him, that would be big. Everyone benefits from more HP. Clarste posted:I think people in this thread are much too worried about some hypothetical "mana void" attack from an enemy. What you have to realize though is that strength uses mana too. It's not like his buddy is a normal human in excellent physical condition or anything: they're clearly using ancient chi techniques to improve their bodies. Raising his strength is in essence raising his strength magically, because the Gamer ability is itself magic. A true mana void attack would negate any strength boosts as well. It's not just mana-void though. There could be any kind of wild crazy attack that he just isn't prepared for, for whatever reason. HxH is a good story to draw examples from. Like right now, how can he counter an invisible enemy? What about one that attacks with sight or sound? Or mind control? You can't be prepared for every possible situation. So you need a back-up plan for when you can't safely fight an opponent. But I can see your point that his best back-up is probably to have a mana-based retreat skill. Man, this is all a really pointless thing to discuss. Narratively it doesn't matter much. But it's sorta fun so whatever.
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May 9, 2014 15:21
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Kaja Rainbow posted:In the chapter where she's introduced, she basically talks about how she and her warrior are basically specialized for killing lots of weaklings. Thus, Witch of Slaughter. For what the Black Summoner hired her for (weeding out the incoming swarms of hunters), she's basically ideal. Means he doesn't have to worry about a stray low-rank getting lucky. The chapter where he confronts Jee Han over the healing will be great.
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May 9, 2014 15:26
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That would require them to talk to each other like rational adults though. Isn't it more likely that they'll just stand around awkwardly until something happens that forces them into opposition?
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May 9, 2014 15:41
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I would like to note that going in all magic allows him access to money making opportunities that he would not have otherwise. Magically creating hammers makes him money. Money lets him buy magic gear. He really needs magic gear right now. Also he could probably hire guards and stuff.
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May 9, 2014 16:01
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Just to note, it hasn't come up yet but we learned early on that exercise can raise his strength (as well as give xp) and studying can raise his int. By that logic, he should be capable of training himself to at least peak-physical ability.with enough time and effort, without spending any XP. Or the author could forget they put that in in the first two chapters and it could never come up. Theoretically though, with the time chambers, he could easily work out until he was ripped.
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May 9, 2014 16:37
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I am pretty sure Jee-Han is just not the type of guy to work out.
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May 9, 2014 16:39
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KittyEmpress posted:Just to note, it hasn't come up yet but we learned early on that exercise can raise his strength (as well as give xp) and studying can raise his int. By that logic, he should be capable of training himself to at least peak-physical ability.with enough time and effort, without spending any XP. You're right but he could also just spend that time studying for int instead. He's only got limited time, just like he only has limited skill points to allocate from leveling up. So he's losing out on his min-maxing either way.
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May 9, 2014 18:21
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My biggest reason why he might want to boost his less useful stats up to a fair level would be, outside of being the most popular dude in school, the potential passives he could get and also that he may find a way to pull out some insane buffs with better knowledge of the stats he's ignoring. Sure, having the strength and agility of a dude who puts effort into hitting the gym every day may not help in the Abyss, but if it gives him an idea to double that with his magic, dude could hold his own against anyone.
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May 9, 2014 18:45
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Brought To You By posted:The world of The Gamer seems similar to that given the range of ability users we have seen. Even though Han has a gamer ability he treats it like a Korean MMO because that's what he knows. If a gamer with a history of western single player RPGs got this power they may focus on different stats that are more beneficial to the types of games they play (Wisdom for anyone familiar with Planescape Torment). Heck, a player with more experience working with action games that have RPG elements ( If it was  he'd get chameleon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO_5E1sBwvo.By which I mean, he should definitely get chameleon.
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May 9, 2014 19:10
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XboxPants posted:You're right but he could also just spend that time studying for int instead. He's only got limited time, just like he only has limited skill points to allocate from leveling up. So he's losing out on his min-maxing either way. Well, I kinda assume that the higher his stats get, the harder they are to raise normally. If you already are the smartest person on the world, what are you going to study to become smarter?
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May 9, 2014 19:11
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XboxPants posted:But I can see your point that his best back-up is probably to have a mana-based retreat skill. Really, part of the problem is this discussion is that it isn't quite clear how much int training he'd have to give up to get a return on his other stats. Clarste posted:I think people in this thread are much too worried about some hypothetical "mana void" attack from an enemy. What you have to realize though is that strength uses mana too. It's not like his buddy is a normal human in excellent physical condition or anything: they're clearly using ancient chi techniques to improve their bodies. Raising his strength is in essence raising his strength magically, because the Gamer ability is itself magic. A true mana void attack would negate any strength boosts as well. Again though, it entirely depends on what he has to give up to get other stat gains. If he has to give up equivalent power in magic based boosts to get better at physical skills, it doesn't seem like he should bother. If nothing else, he should be seriously looking at unique ways enemies can possibly cripple him and have some type of Plan B. Even if the plan B is to just run.
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May 9, 2014 19:42
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Twiddy posted:Again though, it entirely depends on what he has to give up to get other stat gains. If he has to give up equivalent power in magic based boosts to get better at physical skills, it doesn't seem like he should bother. If nothing else, he should be seriously looking at unique ways enemies can possibly cripple him and have some type of Plan B. Even if the plan B is to just run. Clearly, the plan B is to learn the ability to get into his own inventory. ... Or put a Bunker there that's heavily warded, or some such, that he can take out at any time.
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May 9, 2014 19:47
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Jee-Han boosts his physical abilities with the Breathing Technique. As it levels up, he gathers ki/mana in his body and it passively improves his abilities even when not using the active form. Sun-Il even said that the Breathing Technique alone could make him pretty powerful, it'll just be a slower growth than his grinding. He can likely get other buffs from going full Mage, not to mention his mana barrier will basically be completely sustainable once get gets it high enough. Also, mana sword for melee combat. He can train his sword skill and use that skill with an Int modified weapon, for those cases when he gets into melee. Really, strength has little value for him right now. Vitality/Agility and maybe Luck/Wisdom are good for experimentation. But he really wasted those first five points.
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May 9, 2014 20:56
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SerSpook posted:Jee-Han boosts his physical abilities with the Breathing Technique. As it levels up, he gathers ki/mana in his body and it passively improves his abilities even when not using the active form. Sun-Il even said that the Breathing Technique alone could make him pretty powerful, it'll just be a slower growth than his grinding. You know, upon review it does kinda seem that the entire DBZ ki-control powerset could fall under what this series considers "magic". They're all just using mana/ki-barriers and floating/flying/flash-stepping with mana/ki and shooting mana/ki blasts.
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May 9, 2014 21:20
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It's pretty explicitly the case - Mana, Ki, Qi, Chi, Shinshoo, are all the same energy filtered through the body in different ways, or at least related energies. What makes Jee-Han special is that he has 'mana' that adapts itself to work in whatever way. He could learn a Chi technique without knowing anything about chi manipulation, yet the grandfather could tell it wasn't chi in his body, even if it was having the same effect as chi would have. That's like... kinda part of why everyone said he was overpowered. You have to remember that Sun-Il's big power that lets him be one of the more powerful members of the clan was 'a bit of a talent in manipulating ki', which supplemented his ability to use acquired abilities. Jee-Han has more than 'a bit of talent'. Edit: So if he was more of an anime nerd than a game nerd, he might have created a kamehameha (or 'ki blast') instead of a 'mana bolt'.
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May 9, 2014 22:27
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KittyEmpress posted:Shinshoo But shinsoo is something created/controlled by the floor guardians and voluntarily granted to the climbers! Has it ever been explicitly stated that it will take a significantly increased amount of time for him to level up at higher levels?
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May 10, 2014 02:42
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Besides the fact that that's how experience works in every RPG ever, yes. He mentioned a while back that killing zombies wasn't helping anymore.
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May 10, 2014 04:17
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BlitzBlast posted:Besides the fact that that's how experience works in every RPG ever, yes. He mentioned a while back that killing zombies wasn't helping anymore. I hate to argue with you since your point is right, but I don't think that supports your argument. The zombies are lower level than him now, he needs to level up off of higher level monsters. That doesn't mean he wouldn't level just as fast against same-level monsters at level 20 as he did at level 10.
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May 10, 2014 10:24
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It means you need more experience to level up, which does in fact mean it takes more time. There are always shortcuts (like how he took down the boss zombie), but that doesn't suddenly mean he needs less experience. I also can not believe you are seriously trying to debate this point. There's being a devil's advocate, and then there's just wasting time.
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May 10, 2014 10:28
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BlitzBlast posted:It means you need more experience to level up, which does in fact mean it takes more time. No it doesn't. I don't get your argument. You need more experience to level up at 20 than at 10, but level 20 enemies also give you more experience. So just saying "I can't get by killing enemies 10 levels below me, I have to kill same-level enemies" doesn't mean it takes longer to level by itself. It just means you switch which enemies you're fighting and proceed as normal.
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May 10, 2014 11:50
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XboxPants posted:No it doesn't. I don't get your argument. You need more experience to level up at 20 than at 10, but level 20 enemies also give you more experience. So just saying "I can't get by killing enemies 10 levels below me, I have to kill same-level enemies" doesn't mean it takes longer to level by itself. It just means you switch which enemies you're fighting and proceed as normal. It's an MMO, they're designed around each level taking longer than the last one to acquire. I imagine grindy Korean MMOs are considerably worse on this.
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May 10, 2014 13:20
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occipitallobe posted:It's an MMO, they're designed around each level taking longer than the last one to acquire. I imagine grindy Korean MMOs are considerably worse on this. Yeah, at the upper levels in RO you needed to kill hundreds of thousands of mobs to gain a single level, hundreds of thousands of mobs that were 20 to 50 levels higher than you. Then you reincarnated and started back at level one so you could unlock your true class.
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May 10, 2014 13:44
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Yeah, at the upper levels in RO you needed to kill hundreds of thousands of mobs to gain a single level, hundreds of thousands of mobs that were 20 to 50 levels higher than you. Then you reincarnated and started back at level one so you could unlock your true class. Good times! 
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May 10, 2014 16:01
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Yeah, at the upper levels in RO you needed to kill hundreds of thousands of mobs to gain a single level, hundreds of thousands of mobs that were 20 to 50 levels higher than you. Then you reincarnated and started back at level one so you could unlock Legendary Housewife. Fixed for relevance.
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May 10, 2014 16:07
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XboxPants posted:No it doesn't. I don't get your argument. You need more experience to level up at 20 than at 10, but level 20 enemies also give you more experience. Oh I get it, you've just never played a Korean MMO before. Go play Ragnarok Online or time travel back and play original Maplestory and ask some level 70 dude if it takes him the same amount of time to level as it did when he was level 10. This really isn't hard. At level 10 you might need 1000 XP to hit 11. At level 20 you'd need 60,000 to hit 21. You can kind of speed up the latter by killing bosses or doing quests, but on average it's still going to take waaaay more time to level up. EDIT: Also it's pretty common in even regular RPGs for leveling up to start taking a really long time once you hit really high levels, even if you're fighting the hardest monsters in the game. It's called an exponential experience curve. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 16:35 on May 10, 2014 |
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May 10, 2014 16:25
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