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Kaal posted:Yeah I'm quite curious about it since the article definitely sounds like a PR publicity pitch for a local company, so I'd love to hear if the system actually works. If so, it seems like it could be a big deal for pothole repair. I'm pretty skeptical. Sure, that patch looks great when you take your time and do it carefully. But a regular patch would look great if the maintenance crew used large equipment and were careful. Pothole patches are lovely because it's done by two guys using handheld equipment to do the compaction in about 15 minutes. Another problem is that machine probably can't be used near utilities, since heating a water, gas, or electric line to 375 degrees would probably not be great. So you'd have to have Miss Utility come out before you use it.
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May 9, 2014 01:31
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In the specific example of New York City, tons of the streets have superheated steam lines running through them 24/7, so relevant utilities around have to be able to deal with that anyway. Typical service temperature at the customer premises is 350 degrees! And the steam pipes burst or leak reasonably regularly and usually don't end up disrupting the neighboring utilities to them. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 01:37 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 01:35
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Install Windows posted:In the specific example of New York City, tons of the streets have superheated steam lines running through them 24/7, so relevant utilities around have to be able to deal with that anyway. Typical service temperature at the customer premises is 350 degrees!  When you have that much protection and separation, I can see how a steam main would be less of a problem. I still don't think you'd want to go microwaving the street without calling Miss Utility first 
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May 9, 2014 03:28
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Devor posted:
The containment stuff breaks a lot, sometimes causing explosions that crater the street in really bad cases. These are lines well over hundred years old in some places.
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May 9, 2014 03:52
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Is that just to keep the streets free of ice?
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May 9, 2014 05:05
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The Deadly Hume posted:Is that just to keep the streets free of ice? The steam system supplies heating, cleaning, and even air conditioning to most of Manhattan below the top of Central Park. It's partially generated by plants that just produce steam, and partially it's cogeneration from electric power stations. It saves scads of fuel and pullution that'd otherwise happen from normal heating and air conditioning systems. You might ask "wait, how is 350 degree superheated steam good for cooling things down?" Well they do it by way of massive absorption refrigeration systems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator It's an old technique that was used to make the first practical refrigerators, and relies on having a heat source to move the cooling fluids around, and so the same steam supply can heat you in winter, cool you in summer, and let you do things like sterilize and clean plates and hospital equipment all year. And it saves some ridiculous amount of other power usage.
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May 9, 2014 05:12
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drat, that's pretty neat. I never knew people would make a practical utility out of steam (like gas or electricity etc.)
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May 9, 2014 05:24
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Why aren't systems like that more widespread? Are they only practical for high-density areas?
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May 9, 2014 05:44
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Hedera Helix posted:Why aren't systems like that more widespread? Are they only practical for high-density areas? Unless you've got a bunch of clients within a short distance, it loses its cost advantage. Same thing holds true for distributed chiller plants (universities, corporate campuses, massive data centers) and deep water source cooling systems (Toronto). Varance fucked around with this message at 10:51 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 10:41
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It's common in Iceland (because they have fucktons of hot water and steam coming out of the ground, so why not). I believe it's catching on in Germany too, mostly using geothermal or CHP plants to pipe hot water around.
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May 9, 2014 12:53
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Hedera Helix posted:Why aren't systems like that more widespread? Are they only practical for high-density areas? It's insanely difficult to do new build, and you need to retrofit a lot of building systems in order to take advantage. Some cities you wouldn't expect to have one have it, like Denver, but for the most part existing systems now are ones where construction of it was able to start a long while back when the infrastructure could be put in the ground and building projects were designed to use the steam, because it's hard to retrofit an existing building to take full advantage. However, most cities do have at least portions of themselves that are dense enough to support steam districts were we to really get into it and provide the proper funding et al. Especially for cities in hot climates, a significant amount of electricity usage for standard air conditioning could be cut out if places were refit for a/c by way of co-generated steam.
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May 9, 2014 14:08
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Varance posted:In the US, most systems are in northern cities (Boston, For example: http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2011/02/02/power_plant_plan_to_cut_discharge_send_heat_to_boston/?page=full http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/blog/mass_roundup/2013/12/veolia-buys-kendall-plant-in-cambridge.html (Second paragraph)
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May 9, 2014 14:28
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In Holland something similar is used, but as far as I know it's not actually steam, just warm water (60 C, maybe a bit more), which would otherwise be waste cooling water from power plants. In cities it's used to heat buildings, in rural areas there's longer pipes and it's actually used to heat greenhouses.
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May 9, 2014 18:34
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Any traffic engineers want to comment on http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2014/05/broken_joint_causing_interstat.html? Read the comments too, this is one of the few cases where reading the comments on a local news article won't make you want to punch your monitor. This turn already sucks because it tightens as you go further into it, and there is a very good chance you'll have to brake anyway because of traffic. This gap seems to be the cherry on this particular poo poo sundae. Rain+metal != traction and all that.
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May 9, 2014 18:36
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I've been lurking this thread pretty much since its inception and I don't recall this being mentioned, but obviously I could be wrong. It's a rather bad-rear end map of certain transit systems, with individual vehicles' scheduled behaviour on it. It can also work with real time data but in Europe that's only available for the Netherlands. http://tracker.geops.ch/
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May 9, 2014 18:51
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bitcoin bastard posted:Any traffic engineers want to comment on http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2014/05/broken_joint_causing_interstat.html? Read the comments too, this is one of the few cases where reading the comments on a local news article won't make you want to punch your monitor. The issue here is that a ramp with a reduced design speed compared to the roadways, has a construction tolerance problem that is exacerbated when people exceed the advisory speed. It looks like it has a drop-off on the downstream side of the joint, which means you lose control briefly if you take it too quickly. Not good! I looked at the alignment since you mentioned it "tightens as you go further into it" which can be a problem, depending on how it's laid out. This would be a compound curve, where you have two curves in the same direction. The rule of thumb is that the ratio of the radii of the two curves should be 1.5 : 1, so a 1000-ft radius into a 1500-ft radius would be okay, for example. It's hard to tell from the aerial, but it doesn't look super unreasonable. The problem is probably that drivers are going much faster than the design speed, and the compound curve is surprising them, and the joint making them lose contact briefly means they lose control. Eliminating any one of those problems would probably mean less crashes. So with three problems of the joint, excessive speeds, and confusing alignment, they'll probably fix the joint, post extra warning signs (and more emphatic signs), and leave the alignment as is.
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May 9, 2014 18:58
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Dancer posted:I've been lurking this thread pretty much since its inception and I don't recall this being mentioned, but obviously I could be wrong. It's a rather bad-rear end map of certain transit systems, with individual vehicles' scheduled behaviour on it. It can also work with real time data but in Europe that's only available for the Netherlands. That's cool as hell. Even the local buses in the countryside can be followed live in the Netherlands, and it has all the stop times.
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May 9, 2014 20:58
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Varance posted:The technique is known as district heating and is only practical when you can hit a bunch of buildings with minimal infrastructure. You can find these systems in many larger cities, more commonly in Europe than North America. In the US, most systems are in northern cities (Boston, NYC, Cleveland, Baltimore, Detroit, Minneapolis, etc.). They've got one in Birmingham for UAB (college/hospital), but then you have rare problems like a woman being killed when a pipe fails: http://onlineathens.com/stories/070403/new_20030704041.shtml
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May 9, 2014 22:55
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uapyro posted:They've got one in Birmingham for UAB (college/hospital), but then you have rare problems like a woman being killed when a pipe fails: Or when a downtown NYC street turns into a geyser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RET1fcpHS6U http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_New_York_City_steam_explosion
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May 9, 2014 23:37
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Varance posted:The technique is known as district heating and is only practical when you can hit a bunch of buildings with minimal infrastructure. You can find these systems in many larger cities, more commonly in Europe than North America. In the US, most systems are in northern cities (Boston, NYC, Cleveland, Baltimore, Detroit, Minneapolis, etc.).
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May 10, 2014 03:04
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Carbon dioxide posted:In Holland something similar is used, but as far as I know it's not actually steam, just warm water (60 C, maybe a bit more), which would otherwise be waste cooling water from power plants. In cities it's used to heat buildings, in rural areas there's longer pipes and it's actually used to heat greenhouses. Most places use hot water, NYC just happens to have a huge-rear end legacy steam system that is by coincidence one of the few in America that survived.
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May 10, 2014 16:42
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Groda posted:Most places use hot water, NYC just happens to have a huge-rear end legacy steam system that is by coincidence one of the few in America that survived. Well, you need something to power all NYC's steampunk tech.
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May 10, 2014 17:08
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I was looking around Google Earth today, and it's amazing how many freeways France has built in the last decade. They're doing it the right way, too: lots of small (2-lane) freeways in a rough grid pattern to provide redundancy and avoid city centers. People around my state really hate on freeways, but that's mostly just because the US sucks at building 'em. Speaking of things the US sucks at, how about that highway fund? For those of you who don't know, Congress is basically sitting on its rear end while highway funding runs out. Another few months, and the industry might lose 700,000 jobs because of their inaction. The quick and easy solution is to raise the gas tax, which hasn't been touched in two decades, but good luck getting any kind of consensus there. I read that Europe spends something like 3.5x as much as the US on infrastructure as a proportion of their GDP, and it's no wonder why.
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May 13, 2014 22:22
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Because our economy is depressed as gently caress and we're not spending it on the military? 
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May 13, 2014 22:54
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Cichlidae posted:I was looking around Google Earth today, and it's amazing how many freeways France has built in the last decade. They're doing it the right way, too: lots of small (2-lane) freeways in a rough grid pattern to provide redundancy and avoid city centers. People around my state really hate on freeways, but that's mostly just because the US sucks at building 'em. Because when it runs out and 700,000 people lose their jobs, it will make AMAZING opportunities for the Republicans in the midterms. Why, OBAMA DESTROYED 700,00 JOBS, BECAUSE HE WANTED TO TAX YOUR GAS! Unless, of course, a "compromise" can be reached, wherein the money comes from more cuts to food for needy children. I am not at all bitter about US Politics lately.
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May 14, 2014 02:03
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Jostiband posted:Because our economy is depressed as gently caress and we're not spending it on the military? Sounds like the right time to remind everyone that they're called the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways and they're in every state and a majority of House districts, and convince Lockheed and Raytheon to get in the road-building business. Then again, if our transportation infrastructure gets built like the F-22 and F-35, we might not be any better off.
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May 14, 2014 02:30
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Dominus Vobiscum posted:Sounds like the right time to remind everyone that they're called the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways and they're in every state and a majority of House districts, and convince Lockheed and Raytheon to get in the road-building business. An F22 is better than a biplane that's on fire. 
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May 14, 2014 02:34
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Install Windows posted:An F22 is better than a biplane that's on fire. In the sense that hypoxia is a somewhat better death than immolation.
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May 14, 2014 02:44
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Dominus Vobiscum posted:In the sense that hypoxia is a somewhat better death than immolation. No, the F22 flies fine and doesn't randomly explode. It's way too expensive for what it is but it does function. It's literally the mythical $10,000 military barracks toilet seat - you get completely taken on the price, but it does function as a toilet seat.
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May 14, 2014 02:51
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Install Windows posted:No, the F22 flies fine and doesn't randomly explode. It's way too expensive for what it is but it does function. So it's the Big Dig of military jets?
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May 14, 2014 02:57
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Dominus Vobiscum posted:So it's the Big Dig of military jets? I'd say that's about an accurate assessment of the F22 and vice versa.
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May 14, 2014 03:00
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Just a quick reminder that anyone who isn't already should probably keep an eye on Citybound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tFPppvpDzE
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May 14, 2014 12:10
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Install Windows posted:It's way too expensive for what it is but it does function. No, you mean "figuratively".
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May 14, 2014 15:39
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Hippie Hedgehog posted:No, you mean "figuratively". I'm seeing images of jet-propelled, low-radar-profile flying toilet seats. On the topic of the highway fund: on the one hand, the government shutdown seems to have largely backfired on the Republicans, so I don't see this going any better for them. On the other hand, they seem crazy enough to want to play chicken. Also, there was a poll posted in DnD some months ago, asking Americans what government service they would be least willing to cut. Infrastructure came out last - it was competing against healthcare, education, defense and social security, though. But I read that and thought, "Yep, expect even more potholes and falling bridges."
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May 14, 2014 17:23
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The levels of fuckery in the US with things that *I*'d consider basic government tasks really boggles the mind.
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May 14, 2014 18:21
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Wolfsbane posted:Just a quick reminder that anyone who isn't already should probably keep an eye on Citybound. If it turns out as well as I hope, I'll be installing it on my work computer. As I've already said, 10-year-old computer games often do a better job of traffic simulation than $20,000 custom-made software. Lead out in cuffs posted:But I read that and thought, "Yep, expect even more potholes and falling bridges." When are people going to learn that cutting infrastructure funding results in regrets? ----- And here's today's discussion topic: managed lanes. In theory, they sound pretty good - toll the road when congestion is heavy, reducing congesting and producing income. But then you get into the social implications. Basically, you are giving wealthier people access to a more effective road network, while making it less accessible to those with less money. I read a report that said it wasn't a big deal, but its logic seemed pretty faulty, to be honest. One of their points was that 70% of managed lane income comes from wealthy drivers. Isn't that pretty drat clear segregation? We're talking 1/4 of the population getting 70% of the utility. While their time IS worth more, they also have more flexibility, typically; low-income drivers are much more time-dependent for their jobs.
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May 14, 2014 22:32
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I'm a pretty big anti-car anti-highway anti-sprawl guy but just adding sticks without any carrots isn't helping things. When you live in a "transportation desert" where the only option is driving, what the gently caress good is a toll or other "stick" going to be? "Ah, I'll only go to work every other day" or "I'll just ask my pitiless corporate taskmaster if I can start work at a different time!". I have a pretty ok job and I totally could just ask my boss if I could start work at a different time to avoid some sort of rush hour charge, but like you said, poor people are generally working some lovely service job that doesn't have any flexibility. You can't force people to stop doing something if there aren't good alternatives. If you've got some dense walkable city layered with subways and trams and bike infrastructure sure, throw some sticks at drivers and herd them onto transit. But you know the best stick to get people to drive less? Just stop investing in more roads and keep investing in transit. Eventually taking transit becomes less hassle than driving and a equilibrium is reached. Anyone who can help it avoids driving at peak hours. But you have to keep up with the alternatives, you have to really invest in the transit. You have to really make sure future development is walkable and close to said transit. There's no one solution, you have to do them all in close coordination. Transit is useless if the urban-planning and built-form doesn't support it. Density is terrible if it's not walkable and there's no or lovely transit. And even good transit won't be used if driving is still too pleasant and efficient due to over-investment.
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May 14, 2014 22:58
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The government cutting infrastructure isn't going to stop suburbs or interstates cutting through downtown areas, they'll still be built. They're just not going to be maintained or will be built cheaper (like the SW Indiana bit of i-69 which after just 2 years has bad problems with potholes and dips).
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May 14, 2014 23:12
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What's your take on dual purpose managed lanes, carpool access at all times, tolled access with changing prices depending on load and potentially being restricted to carpool only in peak load situations?
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May 15, 2014 09:06
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Cichlidae posted:
So what you're saying is that they can't cut back on funding, and they will regret this?
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May 15, 2014 12:19
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