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Umberger posted:If you're talking about Old Dragonslayer, there's implications that the land Gwynevere fled to where she married Flame God Flann is Heide's Tower of Flame, and that Ornstein followed her. Whether the developers intended it or not there is some interesting lore precedent for him being there. That doesn't make much sense to me since you straight up murdered Ornstein in the last game, but then again in Lordran time and space is twisted seems to be the go to phrase when that sort of thing comes up.
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May 10, 2014 23:13
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Smelter Demon is actually a really cool fight with a Gyrm Greatshield. My only big complaint is one particular lunge attack which fucks up the camera in such a way that it can bypass your shield.
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May 10, 2014 23:13
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Cowcaster posted:That doesn't make much sense to me since you straight up murdered Ornstein in the last game, but then again in Lordran time and space is twisted seems to be the go to phrase when that sort of thing comes up. The Ornstein and Smough you fought in Dark Souls 1 were also illusions of Gwyndolin. e: Likely. Fan theory etc.
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May 10, 2014 23:14
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Then where is the soul you get from the boss coming from?
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May 10, 2014 23:15
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Kanos posted:I watched this video a while back because I had a friend talking about it and most of his complaints boil down to "This game isn't Demon's Souls!" The dude complains about how easy it is to join and leave covenants and that there should be more penalties for leaving. I wonder if he thought Dark Souls' system was better or if he felt that wasn't punishing enough. The dude has some decent complaints but there's also a lot of "I don't like it, so it's bad" complaints. There's also the occasional inaccuracies (Way of Blue don't need to wear their ring to summon Blue Sents) but that's pretty much expected because of how this series of games likes to be vague. He also complains about how the theme of cycles is just to justify a sequel but Dark Souls already had a theme of cycles and repetition in play because they kept trying to keep the Age of Fire going. Dark Souls just happens to be the first cycle, whereas Dark Souls 2 has already gone through many. People cling to the greatness of the past and try to revive it but it never lasts. Probably the weirdest complaint to me is that the Duke's Dear Freja has a laser that's not telegraphed at all before the fight. He does make a comparison to a boss with mechanics that are foreshadowed through level design but there's plenty of bosses with surprises in store for the player in these games.
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May 10, 2014 23:17
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Manatee Cannon posted:Then where is the soul you get from the boss coming from? Or Ornsteins ring. Besides, I always took the whole "Time and space distortion" thing as an explanation for how the multiplayer in DS1 worked. It wasn't intended as an easy fix for any and all plot holes.
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May 10, 2014 23:18
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Argas posted:Probably the weirdest complaint to me is that the Duke's Dear Freja has a laser that's not telegraphed at all before the fight. He does make a comparison to a boss with mechanics that are foreshadowed through level design but there's plenty of bosses with surprises in store for the player in these games. This is another hilarious part of the video because he complains about Freja but simultaneously falls all over himself to excuse Armor Spider with such clear-cut warning signs as "It's in a mine, so there will be heat" and "There's a tunnel so you should definitely expect it to vomit a stream of fireballs at you and also explode periodically". I don't begrudge him for liking Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1 a lot, but man he's got coke bottle lenses in his rose-colored glasses.
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May 10, 2014 23:20
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Weremacht posted:Really? This dude's main complaints is that "there are multiple things I have to keep track of in a fight and I don't like it" and "the game allows me to kite enemies and abuse bows, because the souls series has never ever had an issue with this before" This is missing the point. The argument is that it thoughtlessly throws multiple enemies at you to such a degree that it practically encourages scum tactics. Bear in mind, this is a critique. It is supposed to be critical. The guy upfront says the game is good. I largely agree with most everything said. DS2 has a lot of great mechanical features, but it doesn't go very far in exploring them with the enemy/level design. Backstabs? Only enemies that have been particularly susceptible have been lion warriors in shaded ruin. Guard break? What? On the five enemy types that actually use shields, one of which being the lion warriors that already have a vulnerability? Instead of the game being about figure out what strategy/tactics work best against what, everything has a roughly similar attack pattern with obscene tracking (except for some of the later enemies, ironically) that tend to make encounters a bit more like catacombs runs, where everything is even weak to blunt damage. The levels/enemies are simply not well designed to encourage the player to explore the mechanics. Not that examples are absent, just very limited. Again, game is good. Doesn't mean it isn't flawed. A flawed game I have invested over 100 hours into over 2 platforms and will probably dump another 100 into.
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May 10, 2014 23:22
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I dunno if I like the idea that it's old and decrepit Ornstein or the idea that it's someone dressed like him. Either way, the ring being worn by the Chosen Undead and then making its way across the ocean over the passage of time isn't that far fetched, especially since so much other equipment and souls do the same.
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May 10, 2014 23:22
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Kanos posted:he's got coke bottle lenses in his rose-colored glasses. This is true for like 90% of all complaints I've seen people make about Dark Souls 2. It's a good game and a worthy sequel. It's not perfect by good lord I when I hear some people compare the two it seems like they played the first game 30 years ago and forgot everything about it.
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May 10, 2014 23:24
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aegof posted:I dunno if I like the idea that it's old and decrepit Ornstein or the idea that it's someone dressed like him. Either way, the ring being worn by the Chosen Undead and then making its way across the ocean over the passage of time isn't that far fetched, especially since so much other equipment and souls do the same. It also doesn't explain why the Cathedral of Blue is straight up the decrepit main hall of Anor Londo.
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May 10, 2014 23:25
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Cowcaster posted:It also doesn't explain why the Cathedral of Blue is straight up the decrepit main hall of Anor Londo. Here's your explanation: They're not the same place at all. It looks like a sized-down version of the O/S fight to make you go "ah ha this is like in Dark Souls 1".
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May 10, 2014 23:27
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Chomp8645 posted:This is true for like 90% of all complaints I've seen people make about Dark Souls 2. It's a good game and a worthy sequel. It's not perfect by good lord I when I hear some people compare the two it seems like they played the first game 30 years ago and forgot everything about it. I suspect most fans played DS1 in order to prepare for DS2 right before launch. There are many situations in DS1 that feel like bullshit the first time you run into them, but turn into a cakewalk on your second playthrough. I bet if you go back to the DS1 thread around launch time, there'll be tons of complaints about cheap bullshit like the archer bridge. The same will happen with DS2 over time.
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May 10, 2014 23:28
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Cowcaster posted:It also doesn't explain why the Cathedral of Blue is straight up the decrepit main hall of Anor Londo. If Ornstein followed Gwynevere when she left, and Heide is where they went, I'd imagine they'd have influence on the architecture.
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May 10, 2014 23:28
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Cowcaster posted:That doesn't make much sense to me since you straight up murdered Ornstein in the last game, but then again in Lordran time and space is twisted seems to be the go to phrase when that sort of thing comes up. Personally I think it's kind of weird to consider stuff you do as a player to be such an integral part of the lore. "I killed him in the game so he has to be dead in the story!" By that logic there should also be millions of clones of everything in the lore to account for the fact that there's more than one copy of the game in existence.
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May 10, 2014 23:29
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Kanos posted:This is another hilarious part of the video because he complains about Freja but simultaneously falls all over himself to excuse Armor Spider with such clear-cut warning signs as "It's in a mine, so there will be heat" and "There's a tunnel so you should definitely expect it to vomit a stream of fireballs at you and also explode periodically". Did you know butterflies have lasers too?
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May 10, 2014 23:31
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Kimmalah posted:Personally I think it's kind of weird to consider stuff you do as a player to be such an integral part of the lore. "I killed him in the game so he has to be dead in the story!" Hahaha by that logic Vendrick sits around in the basement groaning for 1000 years while the Emerald Herald sits around waiting for someone to show up because the player has no agency or impact on anything. Not to mention the millions of clones of everything are accounted for in the lore by the whole "time and space is distorted" loophole. Did you think that through?
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May 10, 2014 23:31
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Kanos posted:This is another hilarious part of the video because he complains about Freja but simultaneously falls all over himself to excuse Armor Spider with such clear-cut warning signs as "It's in a mine, so there will be heat" and "There's a tunnel so you should definitely expect it to vomit a stream of fireballs at you and also explode periodically". He's saying that the tunnel leading up to the armored spider, coupled with the lead in to the attack shows you that it can breathe fire. The build up for the laser is almost identical to the biting and stabbing animations for Freja, and can catch a lot of people off-guard. He even mentions that it's really easy to avoid when you know about it.
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May 10, 2014 23:32
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Cowcaster posted:Hahaha by that logic Vendrick sits around in the basement groaning for 1000 years while the Emerald Herald sits around waiting for someone to show up because the player has no agency or impact on anything. Did you think that through? I don't get what you're saying here. That is the actual lore behind it. The Emerald Herald waits for someone to show up and, just like Dark Souls 1, your dude isn't the chosen one or whatever, he's just a dude that listened to her and made it farther than everyone else.
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May 10, 2014 23:33
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CJacobs posted:I don't get what you're saying here. That is the actual lore behind it. Except, he's still alive because the player killing something doesn't mean it's actually dead, apparently.
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May 10, 2014 23:33
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Pretty sure Old Dragonslayer is just a hollowed out Ornstein, who now has no purpose (a.k.a one of the main factors in making people go hollow) due to Gwynevere being dead. Gwynevere/Flann got the hell out of dodge in a sneaky way, founded Heide's Tower of Flame, Ornstein protected an illusion, he learned the thruth, he made his way over but alas Gwynevere was already history.
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May 10, 2014 23:34
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So after Sinner's Rise and Iron Keep, just how many areas are there still to go?
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May 10, 2014 23:35
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Jose posted:So after Sinner's Rise and Iron Keep, just how many areas are there still to go? a lot
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May 10, 2014 23:35
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Cowcaster posted:Except, he's still alive because the player killing something doesn't mean it's actually dead, apparently. The guy's counter-logic wasn't very sound but I don't know why you'd have any reason to believe that's straight up just Ornstein either.
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May 10, 2014 23:35
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Jose posted:So after Sinner's Rise and Iron Keep, just how many areas are there still to go? You're not even half way done.
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May 10, 2014 23:35
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CJacobs posted:The guy's counter-logic wasn't very sound but I don't know why you'd have any reason to believe that's straight up just Ornstein either. I don't? My whole point was you killed Ornstein in the last game, so why should that actually be Ornstein?
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May 10, 2014 23:36
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Kimmalah posted:Personally I think it's kind of weird to consider stuff you do as a player to be such an integral part of the lore. "I killed him in the game so he has to be dead in the story!" Well, technically there are. That's how the multiplayer works, you're pulling someone from a different world that is essentially "you" or else invading that world yourself. There is also a pretty clear cut way to go with this since everyone that completed the game killed the same bosses, even if not in the same order. The game clearly states that the character from Dark Souls killed Gwyn and the other Lord Soul bosses, it just assumes they didn't eat their souls or turn them into fancy weapons.
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May 10, 2014 23:37
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Iretep posted:You're not even half way done. I read this earlier and its insane I'm not even half way done considering how much time I've sunk in. Makes sense though that I finally got my weapon fully upgraded and it happened around the giant blacksmith in DS1
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May 10, 2014 23:37
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So is there any reason at all to kill The Ancient Dragon like, do any side quests ask you do this or is it literally just for the thing it drops?
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May 10, 2014 23:37
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Cowcaster posted:I don't? My whole point was you killed Ornstein in the last game, so why should that actually be Ornstein? Oh, oops. I thought you were agreeing with that other guy who made up a thing about Ornstein migrating from Anor Londo.
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May 10, 2014 23:37
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It's not inconceivable that Ornstein in AL is a fake. Not even an illusion, necessarily, but a legit copy made by Gwyndolin. There are many cases of people being created or greatly strengthened by receiving a portion of a lord soul (i.e. the daughters of chaos being made from the witch's soul, the four kings and seathe receiving a shard of Gwyn's soul). It could be that Gwyndolin used a piece of his own soul to make a fake ornstein.
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May 10, 2014 23:38
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Nuebot posted:So is there any reason at all to kill The Ancient Dragon like, do any side quests ask you do this or is it literally just for the thing it drops? It's just for the Giant Soul. He doesn't have a special soul or item drop, though he is worth quite a few souls if you manage to kill him. Genocyber posted:It's not inconceivable that Ornstein in AL is a fake. Not even an illusion, necessarily, but a legit copy made by Gwyndolin. There are many cases of people being created or greatly strengthened by receiving a portion of a lord soul (i.e. the daughters of chaos being made from the witch's soul, the four kings and seathe receiving a shard of Gwyn's soul). It could be that Gwyndolin used a piece of his own soul to make a fake ornstein. Except fake Gwynevere goes down in one hit. You wouldn't think he'd make her so fragile if he could make such perfect copies as O&S.
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May 10, 2014 23:39
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CJacobs posted:Oh, oops. I thought you were agreeing with that other guy who made up a thing about Ornstein migrating from Anor Londo. To be fair I think your explanation is the correct one  If I was pressed to come up with some solution that didn't involve outside thinking like that though, it still wouldn't make much sense to say it's a different place. They beat you over the head pretty hard with everything throughout the game that Drangleic was once Lordran a billion years ago. Cowcaster fucked around with this message at 23:44 on May 10, 2014 |
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May 10, 2014 23:40
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Genocyber posted:Uh...yeah it does? If you're having trouble with multiple enemies that's your problem, not the game's. Situations with groups of enemies are hands down the best ones in any of the souls games because they're actually difficult. A single enemy is always easy to take down; groups require you to be a lot more careful, kite enemies around, utilize the environment, etc.  God, stop being so bloody impressed without yourself for being halfway competent at this stupid game already, it doesn't make you special. Yes, you can do crowd combat with the system if you absolutely have to, but it isn't made for it and it shows. It's really, really obvious if you compare it to basically any brawler on the market.
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May 10, 2014 23:45
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Wait a minute. I've had this sword for like 3-4 playthroughs and I just accidentally found out that the Defender Greatsword comes with a built in Lightning weapon skill. 
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May 10, 2014 23:46
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gently caress, I was one loving hit away from soloing Freja for like a solid minute and couldn't land the finishing blow because she wouldn't hold her tiny loving weakspot still for long enough and I was out of estus and one of her loving bastard spiders got me and I lost thirty thousand souls and and and  .That area is the worst. Walking on webs with tons and tons of spiders is the worst.
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May 10, 2014 23:46
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Personally I like the idea of Old Ornstein being a hollow, since that's what happened to Gwyn, right? But on the other hand, that was 'cause of the first flame and does the curse of the undead even effect anyone other than humans?
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May 10, 2014 23:48
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Cat Army 
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Genocyber posted:It's not inconceivable that Ornstein in AL is a fake. Not even an illusion, necessarily, but a legit copy made by Gwyndolin. There are many cases of people being created or greatly strengthened by receiving a portion of a lord soul (i.e. the daughters of chaos being made from the witch's soul, the four kings and seathe receiving a shard of Gwyn's soul). It could be that Gwyndolin used a piece of his own soul to make a fake ornstein. Wait what. About the daughters of chaos, that is. Where'd you hear that? As for Ornstein, the main obstacle is that while Gwyndolin did make an illusion of his sister, it's not like we got the illusion's totally-real soul or anything out of it. The whole question over the Old Dragonslayer's true identity is kind of a dead end in my eyes anyway. The whole point is that Lordran is so far in the past that everything about it is pretty faded and forgotten. The Old Dragonslayer carries on that legacy. Whether Ornstein somehow survived and got corrupted by the Dark isn't really a question worth asking, because everything that defined Ornstein is pretty much gone. Gwyn, Anor Londo, and Lordran are so far gone that the sole thing left to define himself by is the legend of a Lion-themed knight that slew dragons.
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May 10, 2014 23:48
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Cardiovorax posted:
I'm not impressed with myself at all? The crowd combat works perfectly fine, as it did in dks and Des. e: Actually, it works even better, since they now give you the ability to free aim even when locked on. Genocyber fucked around with this message at 23:50 on May 10, 2014 |
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May 10, 2014 23:48
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Genocyber posted:I'm not impressed with myself at all? The crowd combat works perfectly fine, as it did in dks and Des. I think it's more that this game throws a lot more crowds at you. A lot, lot more. In Dark Souls 1 you had a couple places in the Undead Burg, maybe a spot or two in the Depths or Blighttown, the ghost ambushes in New Londo, and the catacombs as far as crowds went. Everything else was very much a "one enemy at a time" deal, especially if you were careful.
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May 10, 2014 23:52
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