|
Nah, nobody in this thread has gone SMG on the material or anything, it's just some really basic readings that a lot of people are finding with this show. I've found it all to be pretty straightforward stuff and it's quite well supported by the text. Heck, it makes for some rather enlightening reading that makes this thread worthwhile! If it wasn't for the far right-wing spiels, literally the only thing this thread would be able to talk about is how the sister wants her brother to bang her and how the show itself is an endless series of irrelevant infodumps. The terrible ideology is by far the most interesting subject about this terrible show! Srice fucked around with this message at 21:41 on May 12, 2014 |
#
?
May 12, 2014 21:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 03:30 |
|
|
Just because a lot of people are reading it one way doesn't make it any less reaching.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 21:42
|
|
|
If they were making up such readings then yeah, but lots of people making their arguments cite the show itself. The counterarguments have been "maybe it's not" which I find to be pretty weak! And heck, even if they *were* making it up, it's way more interesting to talk about that stuff than just saying "it just means nothing". Going underneath the surface of a work is way more compelling than insisting that everything should be taken at face value. Srice fucked around with this message at 21:46 on May 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 21:44
|
|
|
It's not insisting it be taken at face value. I've just yet to be convinced by the argument that it's intended to be right wing propaganda.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 21:50
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:It's not insisting it be taken at face value. I've just yet to be convinced by the argument that it's intended to be right wing propaganda. Srice posted:The counterarguments have been "maybe it's not" which I find to be pretty weak!
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 21:52
|
|
|
The only argument for it has been "this is kind of similar if I phrase it this way so obviously it's implying X".
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 22:09
|
|
|
Actually, that's not how people were arguing their points at all. Much like the author of the LN, you are painting those who disagree with you as strawmen  I'd be down for repeating and citing why I think the author has issues with poor people (or at the very least, is pushing that message) but I've made my case plenty of times already and at this point I'd just be copying and pasting! Srice fucked around with this message at 22:16 on May 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 22:11
|
|
|
I think I'm gonna stop engaging him. He is either a really good troll or truly pitiable in any of a number of ways.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 22:20
|
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:I think I'm gonna stop engaging him. He is either a really good troll or truly pitiable in any of a number of ways. I feel like he's legit but all the same yeah it is getting rather circular. Arguing interpretations is fun but this "people are reading too much into it" tangent is a drag because heck, I'd rather get zany readings than no reading at all. And I guess by that I mean it'd be fun to have SMG post about this.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 22:24
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:It's more that ADTRW Reads Too Much Into Things and Doesn't Like A Good Show. Yes, we read the text. Not even the subtext, we read what was literally published and then explain it to you.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 22:42
|
|
|
New thread title: Gary Stu's sister does not want to gently caress him in spite of all evidence to the contrary, because she said so.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 22:51
|
|
|
But is she Tsundere about it? 
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 22:54
|
|
|
The irregular at magic high school: The text says the rich are rich because they make an effort, but what if it doesn't?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 22:55
|
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:New thread title: Gary Stu's sister does not want to gently caress him in spite of all evidence to the contrary, because she said so. I'm not saying there aren't incestuous themes, which are obvious.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 22:56
|
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:New thread title: Gary Stu's sister does not want to gently caress him in spite of all evidence to the contrary, because she said so. You joke, but I actually know someone who says there is zero incest in this. I guess if he means there is no explicit sex then he'd be right, especially considering this show's views on sexuality (which uh, is another minefield to say the least).
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 23:00
|
|
|
I get it now. It's just a case of show, don't tell. WickedHate's just holding out for video evidence of the swastika in Tatsuya's hand...
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 23:00
|
|
|
Srice posted:You joke, but I actually know someone who says there is zero incest in this. See? That would be an example of being totally blind to the show's themes.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 23:02
|
|
|
That post is so  I'd like to frame it on the wall.Can we just change the thread name to The Irregular at Magic High School: WickedHate vs Literature 101?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 23:46
|
|
|
Namtab posted:The irregular at magic high school: The text says the rich are rich because they make an effort, but what if it doesn't? The Irregular at Magic High School: WickedHate is the Irregular and your interpretations are Chinese Terrorists.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 23:53
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:It's more that ADTRW Reads Too Much Into Things and Doesn't Like A Good Show. No dude you are literally either thick as a brick or willfully ignorant. This isn't even subtext at this point. It's just text. That you choose to cover your eyes doesn't really change that.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2014 23:54
|
|
|
Paracelsus posted:People keep bringing up race as the main thing in discrimination, but I don't think that makes much sense given the context for a work from a very mono-ethnic society about a high-stakes educational system. From what I understand the Japanese job market tends to be extremely centered around educational pedigree, and getting into the right school/program is far more determinative of where you end up in the social hierarchy than it is in the West (not to say that it's irrelevant in the West, but if you end up demonstrating talent or success outside of the educational system people won't really care about the school you went to). Furthermore, once you get on a certain "track" of schools, it's harder to switch to a better one because the reputation of the school you previously went to weighs you down, and on the other side some "escalator" schools will take you all the way through college no matter what once you get in, unless you burn the place down or something. In the US, outside of a few places like Sidwell Friends I doubt very many people (or even most college admittance offices) have a clue about the reputation of high schools, let alone middle or elementary schools, and even those are mostly only known locally. I was bringing up race mainly as an example of "people being disenfranchised for something they have no or little control over." In the case of this show, it's magical aptitude (given what we've seen that indicates it's largely inherited). While there have been arguments that it's somehow not preferable to be good at magic (since the government forces you to do certain jobs), the show has been pretty damned clear that people would much rather be good at magic than not. It's sort of like a lawyer or doctor in the real world telling a poor person "hey, being rich isn't that great! we sometimes have to work hard!" Captain Oblivious posted:Clicking random threads wins again. I did not expect this thread to be ADTRW Attempts to Teach WickedHate Basic College Level Reading Skills. Is WickedHate even in college? I know the vast majority of posters on the SA forums are college age or older, but I'd feel like a dick if we've been harping on some 15 year old for his reading comprehension skills.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 03:33
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Is WickedHate even in college? I know the vast majority of posters on the SA forums are college age or older, but I'd feel like a dick if we've been harping on some 15 year old for his reading comprehension skills. I just last week graduated high school, actually. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 03:49 on May 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 03:45
|
|
|
Namtab posted:Race is just being used as a parallel to explain the rough western equivalence of the arguments. But that's a good, interesting post. I'm not sure the comparison works well, because there's a fundamentally different dynamic at work. The thing about that sort of discrimination by educational sorting is that it has at its core a much higher degree of plausibility. Educational achievement has a much more direct correlation with likely outcomes than the race of the person undertaking the endeavor does. I mean, if you're going to drive over a bridge, would you prefer that the bridge be designed by a graduate of Prestigious Civil Engineering Program A or a graduate of Halfway Decent Engineering Program B? It's entirely possible that the engineer from B is actually quite good, and the one from A isn't as hot as their pedigree suggests, but odds are it's the other way around and the amount of time and effort required to prove otherwise are going to be considerable. Now, I suspect what the author is trying to get at is the testing-driven nature of the Sorting Hat that is the Japanese educational system, and how a lot of those tests are mostly memorization of facts that may not be of any particular use in your eventual field of work. If the reason that an engineer went to Program B instead of Program A was that they forgot which generals were doing what at the battle of Sekigahara, that's on its face pretty dumb, and that sounds similar to what the MC's situation is; he's really good at getting outcomes, but not by the methods that the test looks for. On the flip side, someone who got into Program A instead because they did remember which generals of the Western Army switched sides was, all else being equal, actually a stronger candidate who was better at memorization and it's hard to actually fault those on the selection committee for making that choice, because that's the way their incentives run. Not everyone who messes up is a diamond in the rough, and the one who jumped through the hoops correctly demonstrated an ability that the one who messed up didn't. A comparable example in the US educational system would probably be high school extracurricular activities in the college admissions process. They don't really have much to do directly with how good you are at academics, and the "well-rounded person" rationale is a joke; someone with a dozen extracurriculars isn't well-rounded or full of passion, they're a compulsive status-seeker or the child of same, because no one actually has the ability to give meaningful attention to that many activities and they're clearly just padding their resume. But the extracurriculars are quantifiable in a way that academic talent isn't, are signals that the applicant comes from a household that values educational attainment, and show that they can at least give the appearance of being able to function in a social setting (even if they're probably highly neurotic and likely to crash once they hit real failure), so they take on increased importance. There are tons of dumb and offensive things in the series*, but I don't think any of them are really as offensive as "blacks just aren't as talented/hard-working" the way the comparison would frame it. *Especially the shoulder-emblem thing, I mean holy poo poo even if you're going to have the classes split having a constant and obvious visual signal of that separation is guaranteed to produce the sort of "don't mix with those people" behavior we saw from the Class 1 students. At least let the students mix during lunch and activities without telling them up-front who's in and who's out. Regardless of whether there's a dumb in-universe reason for why that started, letting it continue would be unconscionable. Ytlaya posted:I was bringing up race mainly as an example of "people being disenfranchised for something they have no or little control over." In the case of this show, it's magical aptitude (given what we've seen that indicates it's largely inherited). Furthermore, I doubt that magic is actually the only way to be able to vote or achieve wealth and power in fantasy Japan, so calling it "disenfranchisement" seems a bit of a stretch.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 04:06
|
|
|
How are people missing the incest theme?  The sister literally said that she wished her brother saw her "as a woman", while she was in her underclothes no less, before murdering him in a jealous rage because he rebuked her advance. gently caress me now there's a sentence goddamn anime
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 04:14
|
|
|
^^^^ Clearly she is simply upset because she has ovarian cancer and is upset that her brother refuses to face the reality of the situation and continues to insist that she is, in fact, a man.Paracelsus posted:There are tons of dumb and offensive things in the series*, but I don't think any of them are really as offensive as "blacks just aren't as talented/hard-working" the way the comparison would frame it. I think your issue is more with the race analogy being an exaggeration than with it being a wrong analogy. Race can just be replaced with family wealth to fix the issues you seem to have with it. People from wealthier families are often legitimately more qualified simply because they had access to a superior education and a more healthy childhood. But a Tatsuya equivalent in the real world would say that this isn't something worth being upset about and that the children of the wealthy still deserve to be more successful. Such a viewpoint is admittedly less bad than someone who believes minorities are inferior or something, but it's still reprehensible. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 06:51 on May 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 06:47
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:It's more that ADTRW Reads Too Much Into Things and Doesn't Like A Good Show. Dammit WickedHate, stop trying to defend it so much. It's got a terrible story and several characters' backstories exist only as red herrings while their only real purpose is their  reaction whenever the MC does something, to proclaim how amazing he is or tell him to stop being so modest about his flawless talents.Just turn off your brain and watch it for the artstyle and cute girls, if you weren't taking this show so seriously this thread wouldn't be anywhere near page 11.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 07:33
|
|
|
Paracelsus posted:I'm not sure the comparison works well, because there's a fundamentally different dynamic at work. The thing about that sort of discrimination by educational sorting is that it has at its core a much higher degree of plausibility. Educational achievement has a much more direct correlation with likely outcomes than the race of the person undertaking the endeavor does. I mean, if you're going to drive over a bridge, would you prefer that the bridge be designed by a graduate of Prestigious Civil Engineering Program A or a graduate of Halfway Decent Engineering Program B? It's entirely possible that the engineer from B is actually quite good, and the one from A isn't as hot as their pedigree suggests, but odds are it's the other way around and the amount of time and effort required to prove otherwise are going to be considerable. Well, I'm not sure I'd give a drat in that case. You generally want the best possible people when you're doing something that's never been done before. Bridge building isn't some amazingly hard task that can only be successfully done by the best possible people (which is probably fortunate given the number of bridges in existence). Paracelsus posted:A comparable example in the US educational system would probably be high school extracurricular activities in the college admissions process. They don't really have much to do directly with how good you are at academics, and the "well-rounded person" rationale is a joke; someone with a dozen extracurriculars isn't well-rounded or full of passion, they're a compulsive status-seeker or the child of same, because no one actually has the ability to give meaningful attention to that many activities and they're clearly just padding their resume. But the extracurriculars are quantifiable in a way that academic talent isn't, are signals that the applicant comes from a household that values educational attainment, and show that they can at least give the appearance of being able to function in a social setting (even if they're probably highly neurotic and likely to crash once they hit real failure), so they take on increased importance. What? I thought those got added to the college admission processes in order to exclude Jews. I mean, it's entirely possible you're correct, and that they do help identify better applicants, but given their initial discriminatory nature, I'd be a bit suspicious if they just happened to be good at identifying better applicants.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 11:27
|
|
|
HiveCommander posted:Dammit WickedHate, stop trying to defend it so much. It's got a terrible story and several characters' backstories exist only as red herrings while their only real purpose is their I genuinely do like the plot and characters. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 14:49 on May 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 14:16
|
|
|
SSNeoman posted:How are people missing the incest theme? People aren't missing the theme, there's just nothing to discuss about it really. It's gross poo poo that the author put in to try and get additional views. Discussing the author's messages though is actually somewhat interesting. quote:Tucked inside Tatsuya's bosom, Miyuki was blushing furiously. Thankfully, that was difficult to discern in the surrounding darkness — at least that was what Miyuki thought, but Tatsuya had already noticed due to being in contact with her stiff body, while Yakumo had detected this through her erratic breathing. Oh good the brother is actually aware of it  FakeEdit: seriously, everytime I read like 5 pages I find something I want to quote for this thread these books are awful.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 14:41
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:I genuinely do like the plot and characters. It's ok, I also have poo poo taste in anime. I watch pretty much everything with the romance, harem and/or comedy tags each season and the shows I like most usually have all 3 e: Seriously, even I think the story is horrible. I'm just hoping that the stuco president gets more screentime
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 14:59
|
|
|
Namtab posted:FakeEdit: seriously, everytime I read like 5 pages I find something I want to quote for this thread these books are awful. Please, go full Let's Read on us.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 15:29
|
|
|
Dude, stop posting unspoilered spoilers. Now I know they'll hug and stuff.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 15:31
|
|
|
darkgray posted:Dude, stop posting unspoilered spoilers. Now I know they'll hug and stuff. Calling it now, a few more novels in and they'll probably hold hands.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 15:41
|
|
|
Honestly, after the CAD calibration scene, we're probably past the hugging and holding hands level.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 15:47
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:Honestly, after the CAD calibration scene, we're probably past the hugging and holding hands level. Is that the "use my first name, sometimes" level? That one requires some serious guts.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 16:32
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:I think your issue is more with the race analogy being an exaggeration than with it being a wrong analogy. Race can just be replaced with family wealth to fix the issues you seem to have with it. People from wealthier families are often legitimately more qualified simply because they had access to a superior education and a more healthy childhood. But a Tatsuya equivalent in the real world would say that this isn't something worth being upset about and that the children of the wealthy still deserve to be more successful. Such a viewpoint is admittedly less bad than someone who believes minorities are inferior or something, but it's still reprehensible. moebius2778 posted:Well, I'm not sure I'd give a drat in that case. You generally want the best possible people when you're doing something that's never been done before. Bridge building isn't some amazingly hard task that can only be successfully done by the best possible people (which is probably fortunate given the number of bridges in existence). quote:What? I thought those got added to the college admission processes in order to exclude Jews. I have seen suggestions that some schools use extracurriculars as a way to cap the number of asians they admit, but nothing actually concrete on that.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 20:25
|
|
|
Paracelsus posted:I do tend to separate the "equitably deserve" aspect of success from the "economically justified" aspect of success, so YMMV on how bad the MC's position comes across. What do you mean by "economically justified"? Not necessarily disagreeing, I'm just not sure what you're saying here.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 20:37
|
|
|
I'm gonna jump in here for some real talk about design.Paracelsus posted:I dunno, I work a few miles from one of the dodgiest bridges in the country, which is currently undergoing major renovations to make it not a potential deathtrap, so it's probably more prominent in my mind. Bridges also do collapse, and it's catastrophic for the builder/owner when they do, so anything to marginally reduce the probability of that happening gets pretty desirable. And even if they don't collapse, that might have something to do with all the maintenance that's done on them; a better-designed bridge would likely need less maintenance. It's all about those marginal differences that make someone stand out. For serious though, whether it's money, education, or skilled labor, there's not enough resources in the world to optimize everything. Assuming whoever financed your bridge wasn't a major dick, he probably took into account the renovations necessary in the future. EDIT: Seriously though, keep in mind that you cannot make something last forever and after a point the cost does have diminishing returns. I'm sorry your bridge is poo poo, I don't know the exact circumstances behind, but I guarantee that the situation wouldn't have been improved if every bridge designer was magically twice as good as they are now. Scarcity and resource management is part of working in the real world, and that unfortunately means that sometimes we get lovely products. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 20:54 on May 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 20:48
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:What do you mean by "economically justified"? Not necessarily disagreeing, I'm just not sure what you're saying here. The miner isn't going to enjoy as high of a standard of living as the actor, even though the actor's position has a strong genetic-luck-of-the-draw element to it, but nobody is going to pay a miner $10+ million per year and the competition by studios for premium actors makes trying to cap their pay problematic at best and likely impossible. Does the actor deserve that level of wealth relative to the miner? In a moral sense, probably not. In an economic sense? If people are willing to pay for it. In-show, magic seems to produce a high level of value for society, and the number of magicians is limited, so regardless of whether it's "fair" that access to the ability to enrich one's self through magic depends exclusively on genetics, the economic incentives are to make sure that those who can produce what seems to be free energy do that instead of retreating to the woods to make chainsaw sculptures because they find that enjoyable. Of course, the show is sort of weird in that it seems the state actually can fill positions that it wants filled by compelling performance in a way that we'd likely view as unthinkable outside of judicial sanctions (and even then specific performance as a remedy for contract breach is highly disfavored), but the state also seems to pay those so compelled a bunch, which it technically doesn't have to because there's no need to incentivize that which is mandatory. But if the state also paid the magicians squat, the show would be about slavery, which is an entirely different kettle of fish. I'm honestly not sure why the author felt he needed to throw conscription in there, unless it was to justify having the MC be a child supersoldier, but that sort of mismatch is part of what makes the show interesting to dissect as a narrative and thematic mess.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 22:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 03:30 |
|
|
quote:Today's class activity was football. I'm pretty sure in 2080 no matter if magic is real or not sports are probably gonna be the same as sports we have now and not played in dumbass transparent boxes. Your made up sport sounds dumb as gently caress.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2014 22:54
|
|