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The only deck aside from rando giant card piles was G/W Rabid wombats, Verduran enchantresses, all the wards, and whatever cheap enchant creature spells I could find. And Llanlowar elves and Wild growths, because ramp was clearly the most important thing ever.
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May 13, 2014 20:56
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Ramp wasn't as fun when all you had to ramp into was Force of Nature or Scaled Wurm. Or Gaia's Liege.
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May 13, 2014 21:03
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Korak posted:So apparently EDH on MTGO has been broken for over a month where some new bugs cause a match slow down to 1+ minute between phases. It has killed the EDH crowd online. No word on when it'll be fixed. I haven't noticed anything like that?
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May 13, 2014 21:12
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When I first started playing the only decks people made were decks themed around a creature type so you'd have elf decks against angel decks and somehow the angel deck wins Also everyone played mono color decks
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May 13, 2014 21:13
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The most important thing ever in early Magic for me was lords. Why put in any other card besides lords? All of that pumping is sooooooo good! Forget one and two drops, just more lords! Unsurprisingly, my brilliant idea for my first EDH deck was mono white soldiers, which worked better than it should have but still not that great.
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May 13, 2014 21:16
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Korak posted:So apparently EDH on MTGO has been broken for over a month where some new bugs cause a match slow down to 1+ minute between phases. It has killed the EDH crowd online. No word on when it'll be fixed. That's not a new bug, it's just the online EDH crowd's usual pace of passing priority. 
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May 13, 2014 21:20
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Ramos posted:The most important thing ever in early Magic for me was lords. Why put in any other card besides lords? All of that pumping is sooooooo good! Forget one and two drops, just more lords! Amusingly, that's more or less what a Modern Merfolk deck looks like nowadays.
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May 13, 2014 21:22
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Ramos posted:The most important thing ever in early Magic for me was lords. Why put in any other card besides lords? All of that pumping is sooooooo good! Forget one and two drops, just more lords! But lords didn't pump themselves each other back then? Most of the original printings of the original lords lacked the creature types they buffed.
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May 13, 2014 21:23
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Zoness posted:But lords didn't pump themselves each other back then? Most of the original printings of the original lords lacked the creature types they buffed. Nope. They were all typed as "Lord." They're now typed as "Merfolk Lord," and the wording makes them pump each other now, but they don't pump themselves. That was a problem back then, though. The effect was that having two Lords of Atlantis at the same time was not as good as it should have been. Its possible the poster you're talking to didn't start back in the "Summon Ali From Cairo" era.
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May 13, 2014 21:26
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A friend who is a collector was just organizing some old stuff and gave me a starter box of Portals Three Kingdoms. Can anyone who is familiar with this tell me if there are any cards in it that would be worth opening it for to play with? I've got a BRG/Prossh EDH deck and I'm wondering if any of the cards from the BRG deck would be a good fit or not.
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May 13, 2014 21:29
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MMD3 posted:A friend who is a collector was just organizing some old stuff and gave me a starter box of Portals Three Kingdoms. Given the price of the starter decks these days (they're precons as I recall), I imagine there's not much interesting. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 21:35 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 21:31
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Really, the best Magic tutorial you can find is probably just Hearthstone. Then you just have to teach them lands, blocking and the graveyard.
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May 13, 2014 21:39
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Kasonic posted:Really, the best Magic tutorial you can find is probably just Hearthstone. Then you just have to teach them lands, blocking and the graveyard. Why would you recommend a game that fundamentally alters how the combat phase and resource management of a game functions instead of a game like Duels of the Planeswalkers that is literally the same game
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May 13, 2014 21:41
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Zoness posted:I dunno, I assume most people I'm teaching magic to are capable of reading. No offense but this is insane and obviously years of research on WoTC's part has proven it's not this easy. I've taught a couple of new players last year both of whom are intelligent and did not have ADHD. Magic is really a complex game with a very rigid set of rules and I think the structure of it can be disorienting to some at first. So many decisions that come as automatic to you (keeping a 6-land hand, what to attack/block with, when to play or save a combat trick) require a lot of thought from someone who does not have a sense of how the game flows. Remember how nearly everyone overvalued lifegain when starting out? Also, the rules can be tricky if you're not used to them - if you have to explain too many things like why a Ray of Dissolution can kill a Bestow when its a creature but Sip of Hemlock can't when it's an Aura then the newbie might think they'll never quite get a grasp on it. Playing legacy decks or 5-color junk for a dude's first game is crazy.
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May 13, 2014 21:50
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Kasonic posted:Yeah guys I don't know who you are teaching magic to but Phyrexia v Coalition or straight up legacy decks are probably the absolute worst place to start in all of Magic. I've taught 3-4 people and I can't imagine how quickly someone would leave if I asked them to learn the game with ANT. Angry Grimace posted:You're confusing "hard to grasp" with "requires you to spend a minute reading the card every time you draw a card." What you think is boring is different from what someone who doesn't know how to play Magic thinks is boring. Hi. I'm a guy who played a few games of 4th ed and was "taught" Magic with the Phyrexia v Coalition decks last November. It wasn't much fun. Lots of staring at the cards and board to try and figure out just what the hell to do. It was better once the shop owner started looking over my shoulder and explaining the interactions I could play off of. It was over my head even though I'd been dicking around in Forge for a while by then. I really wish they'd have cracked open a few of the freebie intro packs like I had asked. Angry Grimace posted:In reality, the best starter deck is something you build yourself that is full of Llanowar Elves, Grizzly Bears and Doom Blades. Stuff that's not hard to understand. Budget versions of MBD, RDW, Green Ramp, White Weenies, Minotaurs... The cheap versions of RDW are really easy to get a handle on.
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May 13, 2014 21:51
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JAMOOOL posted:No offense but this is insane and obviously years of research on WoTC's part has proven it's not this easy. I've taught a couple of new players last year both of whom are intelligent and did not have ADHD. Magic is really a complex game with a very rigid set of rules and I think the structure of it can be disorienting to some at first. So many decisions that come as automatic to you (keeping a 6-land hand, what to attack/block with, when to play or save a combat trick) require a lot of thought from someone who does not have a sense of how the game flows. Remember how nearly everyone overvalued lifegain when starting out? Also, the rules can be tricky if you're not used to them - if you have to explain too many things like why a Ray of Dissolution can kill a Bestow when its a creature but Sip of Hemlock can't when it's an Aura then the newbie might think they'll never quite get a grasp on it. Playing legacy decks or 5-color junk for a dude's first game is crazy. The specific example is only a problem because Bestow literally creates unintuitive rules interactions so that it works "intuitively" and is a bad mechanic, honestly. Overvaluing lifegain doesn't really affect grasping the core rules. If anything people take that concept too far and overvalue cards like Mana Conflux now.
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May 13, 2014 21:52
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I would argue that the key to teaching new players is making sure they understand the flow of the game, how things play out from game to game, what the board state is likely to look like on turn 3 as opposed to turn 6 and what sort of things can be done and at what cost. When I started I was blown away that a 2 or 3 mana card like Terror or Dark Banishing could take out the 8 mana Scaled Wurm. I'd also disagree re: Bestow being a "bad mechanic" - most mechanics that cause cards to act in new ways will have some kind of rules baggage. The newer players I've seen tend to like the idea behind it.
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May 13, 2014 22:03
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Additionally, start your friends off with Dredge. Then they don't have to learn the rules of Magic at all
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May 13, 2014 22:05
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JAMOOOL posted:I would argue that the key to teaching new players is making sure they understand the flow of the game, how things play out from game to game, what the board state is likely to look like on turn 3 as opposed to turn 6 and what sort of things can be done and at what cost. When I started I was blown away that a 2 or 3 mana card like Terror or Dark Banishing could take out the 8 mana Scaled Wurm. I'd also disagree re: Bestow being a "bad mechanic" - most mechanics that cause cards to act in new ways will have some kind of rules baggage. The newer players I've seen tend to like the idea behind it. Several of my friends love it, one in particular wouldn't bother with auras at all before bestow. Without ever being taught card advantage, she saw how fragile creatures were and didn't want to lose things left and right at inane rates. Her current deck is a blue green one about drawing cards and loading up efficient creatures with efficient bestow auras. It's not fantastic, she gets ridiculous with trying to maintain card advantage to the point of having all fuel and no spark, but it's quite an improvement over putting all of her resources into keeping whatever she puts down alive.
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May 13, 2014 22:12
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I like Bestow because it provides protection from removal in certain circumstances, say, Herald of Torment on a Courser of Kruphix. Courser isn't necessarily threatening on its own, but Herald would get Downfalled immediately because it flies.
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May 13, 2014 22:18
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AgentSythe posted:Additionally, start your friends off with Dredge. Then they don't have to learn the rules of Magic at all I always start with the Dredge deck whenever I teach someone. No joke. Gets them in the right mindset.
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May 13, 2014 22:20
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The point with Bestow being a bad mechanic isn't about whether or not people like it - it was made to not let people have "feel bads" using it. Handwaving the fact that the mechanic works only because the rules say that it works despite every other rules entry that exists as "rules baggage" is disingenuous. I don't have a problem with the power level (it's a little low) or the flavor - it's the actual mechanics of Bestow that are really dumb and that there's actually no way on the card to explicitly understand that it's not countered on the stack by its bestow target not existing during resolution which is y'know how literally every other aura works. Zoness fucked around with this message at 22:26 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 22:22
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Zoness posted:The point with Bestow being a bad mechanic isn't about whether or not people like it - it was made to not let people have "feel bads" using it. Handwaving the fact that the mechanic works only because the rules say that it works despite every other rules entry that exists as "rules baggage" is disingenuous. The rules saying it works isn't "handwaving," those are the rules.
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May 13, 2014 22:27
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Angry Grimace posted:The rules saying it works isn't "handwaving," those are the rules. I'm even willing to accept that as okay if suboptimal (by adding another step to checking spell resolution), but the part where the card doesn't explicitly explain how it is an exception to that rule on the card itself is what makes the mechanic bad. The fact that the reminder text for Bestow does not explain that a Bestow Aura isn't countered when its target is no longer legal is a problem.
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May 13, 2014 22:34
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Zoness posted:I'm even willing to accept that as okay if suboptimal (by adding another step to checking spell resolution), but the part where the card doesn't explicitly explain how it is an exception to that rule on the card itself is what makes the mechanic bad. The fact that the reminder text for Bestow does not explain that a Bestow Aura isn't countered when its target is no longer legal is a problem. Nah, what it says works pretty well. "It becomes a creature again if it's not attached to a creature." basically means to a new player that if it no longer has anything to attach itself to, it simply doesn't. Really, I get more questions about if an aura target can be changed after the first one died.
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May 13, 2014 22:36
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Zoness posted:I'm even willing to accept that as okay if suboptimal (by adding another step to checking spell resolution), but the part where the card doesn't explicitly explain how it is an exception to that rule on the card itself is what makes the mechanic bad. The fact that the reminder text for Bestow does not explain that a Bestow Aura isn't countered when its target is no longer legal is a problem. Eh, it happens. Morph is like the only ability that doesn't use the stack, and that's mentioned nowhere on the cards. You also have to reveal the Morph creature if it gets bounced somehow, and that's also mentioned nowhere on the card. Sometimes you have to sacrifice perfect clarity on the cards to avoid eighty lines of rules text. It's not necessarily a bad thing.
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May 13, 2014 22:40
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Nehru the Damaja posted:It was! I killed someone with a Polar Kraken once! Like... ever. I killed someone in Commander with Leviathan. By attacking... 4 times.  Nehru the Damaja posted:100-card Grixis here. 60 card Grixis because Nicol Bolas was the best card ever printed oh my god my opponent discards their ENTIRE HAND?! This is the same deck that also had Colossus of Sardia, Leviathan, Polar Kraken, AND Phyrexian Dreadnought because obviously it did. 9,10,11, and 12 power? You can't stop that. I'm pretty sure I didn't have before turn 5 except Viashino Sandscout. Also Kookus was in there. I never did own a Keeper of Kookus. And all 3 of the creatures that could be sac'd to turn into Spirit of the Night, except I didn't own Spirit of the Night. I was so good at Magic And seriously, I learned Magic at the age of 7 with the Knights, and (Un)holy Strength (WITH the pentagram!) Partially because it was all that existed and partially because why would you include anything more complicated than that? There were combat tricks, kill spells, static effects (Crusade/Bad Moon,) artifacts, etc. If someone showed me Channel-Fireball, I'd have thought it was the stupidest game. Funny story: The first time I read Sylvan Library, I knew exactly what it did and knew how insanely good it was. I even regularly took the 4 to keep an extra card. But Coercion? Man, that just gets rid of a card. Oh, you get to choose? Reaaallll cool. Whatever; I'll just draw another card on my next turn and now you wasted your turn making me discard my Shivan Dragon.
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May 13, 2014 22:42
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Ramos posted:Nah, what it says works pretty well. "It becomes a creature again if it's not attached to a creature." basically means to a new player that if it no longer has anything to attach itself to, it simply doesn't. The problem with that interpretation (that the clause applies on the stack) is that it's not attached to a creature at any point while the spell is on the stack so why does it ever become attached to a creature in the first place? There's no systematic explanation for the proper resolution aside from a specific entry in the rulebook that isn't reflected on the card itself.
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May 13, 2014 22:44
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AgentSythe posted:Additionally, start your friends off with Dredge. Then they don't have to learn the rules of Magic at all A relatively new player showed up to a legacy night with his standard deck. Someone lent him a reanimator deck, and he had so much fun. His first game he had t1 griselbrand. He understood what magic was about after that.
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May 13, 2014 22:53
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e: wrong thread
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May 13, 2014 22:59
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Zoness posted:The problem with that interpretation (that the clause applies on the stack) is that it's not attached to a creature at any point while the spell is on the stack so why does it ever become attached to a creature in the first place? There's no systematic explanation for the proper resolution aside from a specific entry in the rulebook that isn't reflected on the card itself. A new player doesn't know what the gently caress a stack is. To a new player an aura is attached as soon as it leaves their hand. The reminder text isn't there for judges or someone who knows what oracle text or the comp rules are. Those people, who are also the people who know what the stack is, have oracle and the comp rules.
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May 13, 2014 23:01
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I've found when teaching a new player try to avoid the gritty rules detail and strategy if at all possible for as long as possible. Just explain what things are, what they do, the flow of a turn, the flow of a game, and the colour pie philosophies. Enough so they can get a game through and see whether they enjoy it. Then start going in to more detail over time.
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May 13, 2014 23:18
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Angry Grimace posted:The rules saying it works isn't "handwaving," those are the rules. There's a whole bunch of rules that work in general, then an exception on bestow saying it's different just because. I think it works fine from a gameplay perspective, but it's an ugly hack from the rules perspective. Wizards printed Nullify in Theros block for a reason: the interactions between Negate/Essence Scatter, entering the battlefield as a creature/not a creature, and bestow/bestow and the target dies are inconsistent and non-intuitive. That they do this in the same block that they print Lightning Diadem is just the icing on the cake, given that you can't play that card correctly without knowing the standard rules for creatures being removed in response to an aura.
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May 13, 2014 23:33
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Just want to check because it might be relevant to my Block deck, if I give Brimaz flying or Reach, and have him block a flyer, his token still blocks the flying attacker, right?
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May 13, 2014 23:58
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BizarroAzrael posted:Just want to check because it might be relevant to my Block deck, if I give Brimaz flying or Reach, and have him block a flyer, his token still blocks the flying attacker, right? Correct.
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May 14, 2014 00:25
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Some more vintage masters spoilers are on twitter and reddit. Skullclamp as a mythic. Balance, Living Death, Memory Jar, Chaos Warp, Goblin Goon.
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May 14, 2014 00:32
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Most importantly Force of Will is being printed at rare.
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May 14, 2014 00:33
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Oldsrocket_27 posted:Goblin Goon. THE LEGEND RETURNS
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May 14, 2014 00:44
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The new Skullclamp art is just irredeemably terrible, good lord.
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May 14, 2014 00:51
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Niton posted:The new Skullclamp art is just irredeemably terrible, good lord. "Make it look like a bad render from 2001. Good... that's very good"
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May 14, 2014 00:53
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