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To be honest I don't really understand the desire to see option A. Mega-blob westernised china just strikes me as supremely un-fun purely because it is entirely likely, if not inevitable, that it will become increasingly powerful. Which means if and when the Roman Empire runs into it in a military way victory may well be utterly impossible due to the sheer weight of numbers that the Ming can summon. Now I may be wrong, but inevitable defeats as our armies are worn down by limitless hordes of Ming soldiers no matter how many individual victories we can achieve just sounds damned dull.
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May 13, 2014 19:07
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BwenGun posted:To be honest I don't really understand the desire to see option A. Mega-blob westernised china just strikes me as supremely un-fun purely because it is entirely likely, if not inevitable, that it will become increasingly powerful. Which means if and when the Roman Empire runs into it in a military way victory may well be utterly impossible due to the sheer weight of numbers that the Ming can summon. Now I may be wrong, but inevitable defeats as our armies are worn down by limitless hordes of Ming soldiers no matter how many individual victories we can achieve just sounds damned dull. Quite frankly, because I think it's more sensible than this weird goon backlash against China being even an inch stronger than reality and adding all sorts of WHACKY OTHER ASIAN NATIONS. Seriously, crusader kingdom Thailand?
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May 13, 2014 19:16
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DerLeo posted:Quite frankly, because I think it's more sensible than this weird goon backlash against China being even an inch stronger than reality and adding all sorts of WHACKY OTHER ASIAN NATIONS. Seriously, crusader kingdom Thailand? Maybe some of us like to see wacky poo poo, huh? Maybe some of us know how this game works and know that A is going to be a boring death sentence for RINO. 
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May 13, 2014 19:27
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Maybe some of us like to see wacky poo poo, huh? Maybe some of us know how this game works and know that A is going to be a boring death sentence for RINO. Which is much more boring than a not-"death sentence" game of easy and unhindered expansion. God knows we've barely had any of those. Even Wiz's AzeriLP saw Azerbaijan become a great power. Our Rome has much more potential than that; let's not shy from erecting obstacles in its way.
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May 13, 2014 19:35
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DerLeo posted:Quite frankly, because I think it's more sensible than this weird goon backlash against China being even an inch stronger than reality and adding all sorts of WHACKY OTHER ASIAN NATIONS. Seriously, crusader kingdom Thailand? Yeah but that's the thing, as far as I'm aware China is Westernised in both A and B, only with B it's got some rivals to contend with in the immediate vicinity. Either way China is going to be much, much, much, stronger than is the case in vanilla EU. Making it Westernised, aggressive and undisputed Hegemon of Asia from the word go just means that it will never, ever, lose a war against other AI powers and will lead to horrible grind for the player.
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May 13, 2014 19:37
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BwenGun posted:To be honest I don't really understand the desire to see option A. Mega-blob westernised china just strikes me as supremely un-fun purely because it is entirely likely, if not inevitable, that it will become increasingly powerful. Which means if and when the Roman Empire runs into it in a military way victory may well be utterly impossible due to the sheer weight of numbers that the Ming can summon. Now I may be wrong, but inevitable defeats as our armies are worn down by limitless hordes of Ming soldiers no matter how many individual victories we can achieve just sounds damned dull. With respect, I think that GreyHunters LPs show that repeated losses can still be interesting to read about. IMO having a powerful (potential) enemy > 0 powerful enemies. The non-Ming nations in option B do not sound like they would be powerful enemies. It does no matter very much that there are wacky nations out there if they never amount to much of anything. All that said, while I think option b has less potential, Rincewind has done a good job making the LP interesting so far. Hopefully, whicherver option wins, the pessimism of the opposing voters will prove unfounded. At the very least, there'll probably still be senators throwing amusingly-written tantrums and/or Lord Cyrahzax' char being all  .
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May 13, 2014 20:05
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Caustic Soda posted:With respect, I think that GreyHunters LPs show that repeated losses can still be interesting to read about. IMO having a powerful (potential) enemy > 0 powerful enemies. The non-Ming nations in option B do not sound like they would be powerful enemies. It does no matter very much that there are wacky nations out there if they never amount to much of anything. Well, when we get to Vicky II we too can be repeatedly overthrown by rebels every five years. Until then, let's make a EUIV world that would be fun to play outside of RINO and Ming.
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May 13, 2014 20:10
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Any breakaway states from Ming will probably get reabsorbed anyway.
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May 13, 2014 20:14
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Well, when we get to Vicky II we too can be repeatedly overthrown by rebels every five years. Until then, let's make a EUIV world that would be fun to play outside of RINO and Ming. Given that my old computer cannot run EUIV, I'd rather see the effort put into nations likely to be relevant to the LP. Your milage will vary for good reason, of course.
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May 13, 2014 20:20
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Changing the subject for a moment, Rincewind, is it possible to rename the Tech Groups? If so you should change "Western" to "Chinese" since they seem to be the most advanced nation in the world, regardless of votes. That way, we can change the name of Westernization to Sinicization. 
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May 13, 2014 20:36
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Or one could just go with something simple, like "Modern" or "Advanced."
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May 13, 2014 20:39
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WeaponGradeSadness posted:I'm going to abstain from this vote because I don't have strong opinions one way or the other, but I do have a question: will there be events that can allow the Chinese tributary states to throw out the Ming? Like can Yilang throw off the Chinese ruling class and become Persia/Iran if they have a nationalist rebellion of if the Ming homeland collapses, for example? Yeah, all the Ming Frontier Army successor states have various ways they can fail-- León still has cores in Lai Ang, the Somali successors can reform Somalia if they get enough provinces out of Suo Ma Li, and Persia is still the primary tag for the Persian culture so Yilang can fall to nationalist revolts. The latter is kind of unlikely, since Yilang is the strongest of the successors, but it's possible.
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May 13, 2014 21:08
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DerLeo posted:Quite frankly, because I think it's more sensible than this weird goon backlash against China being even an inch stronger than reality and adding all sorts of WHACKY OTHER ASIAN NATIONS. Seriously, crusader kingdom Thailand? Real life gets pretty crazy when you think about it. A bunch of colonies uniting under a single, untested type of government against the superpower of the world and winning? China never getting its act together long enough to assert its own position of dominance it held throughout most of human history, spending most of the 18th and 19th centuries as Europe's whipping boy? A single genius politician manipulating European powers against each other and eventually uniting an area ruled by a bunch of feudal princes into a dominant power in the 20th century? The Muslims turning their back on science at the height of their Golden Age, ensuring Christianity (and Europe) became the dominant force in the world?
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May 13, 2014 21:19
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OK, so, something a tad unrelated to the ongoing vote but related to the LP as a whole. Specifically the Somali-built canal in the Sinai. While something on the scale of the Suez would be pretty ASB-y even for this LP, a canal system built in the Middle Ages isn't as far off as one might think. In fact, there's a system that linked the Red Sea and Mediterranean a significant period before the start of the LP. I'm talking about the Canal of the Pharaohs, linking the Red Sea not only to the Mediterranean, but the Nile as well. This was a Ptolemaic canal, and something in use up to the 8th century. Given that the first real hint at the Somali Republic having trade posts in the Mediterranean (the Nile Delta, to be specific) was in the 13th century here, perhaps it's not too unreasonable that they restored the canal or even improved on the system and they and anyone in control of that portion of Egypt would continue to do so for sheer practicality's sake. It would mean having to alter any proposed editing of canal systems in EU4, but it's a decent and at least historically viable and sensible option. Apologies if someone has brought this up already, couldn't personally recall it and didn't find anything in double checking the updates, but if I missed something then I guess this can serve as a reminder.
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May 14, 2014 06:43
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StrifeHira posted:OK, so, something a tad unrelated to the ongoing vote but related to the LP as a whole. Specifically the Somali-built canal in the Sinai. While something on the scale of the Suez would be pretty ASB-y even for this LP, a canal system built in the Middle Ages isn't as far off as one might think. In fact, there's a system that linked the Red Sea and Mediterranean a significant period before the start of the LP. I'm talking about the Canal of the Pharaohs, linking the Red Sea not only to the Mediterranean, but the Nile as well. This was a Ptolemaic canal, and something in use up to the 8th century. Given that the first real hint at the Somali Republic having trade posts in the Mediterranean (the Nile Delta, to be specific) was in the 13th century here, perhaps it's not too unreasonable that they restored the canal or even improved on the system and they and anyone in control of that portion of Egypt would continue to do so for sheer practicality's sake. It would mean having to alter any proposed editing of canal systems in EU4, but it's a decent and at least historically viable and sensible option. It has been brought up. The thing about the Canal of the Pharaohs is, by nature of it being a river canal, only ships that would fit on the Nile are really affected by it. If there was some way to make a modifier to let, say, Galleys and Transports through but not Light Ships or Big Ships, that would be an interesting way of representing it. As is, we might as well assume mysterious Chinese secret technology or something and just shrug it off and say that the Suez is where it is IRL, it's a lot more believable than 18th century ships of the line sailing up and down the Nile.
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May 14, 2014 07:00
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Ah drat, fair enough then! Though that does sound like a rather intriguing idea, on somehow modding it to allow only smaller ships through. Don't see how it would be possible as-is, but perhaps Wealth of Nations's canal systems could change things up enough to set that as a moddable option. v v
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May 14, 2014 07:16
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Patter Song posted:It has been brought up. The thing about the Canal of the Pharaohs is, by nature of it being a river canal, only ships that would fit on the Nile are really affected by it. If there was some way to make a modifier to let, say, Galleys and Transports through but not Light Ships or Big Ships, that would be an interesting way of representing it. As is, we might as well assume mysterious Chinese secret technology or something and just shrug it off and say that the Suez is where it is IRL, it's a lot more believable than 18th century ships of the line sailing up and down the Nile. Well they do have explosives...
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May 14, 2014 08:20
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Or it could have been built the same way the otl canal was - huge gangs of labourers, explosives and incredible loss of life?
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May 14, 2014 09:52
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 StrifeHira YF-23 DerLeo Freudian Flesnolk Technowolf Patter Song Ghetto Prince Alexey Rejected Fate ThatBasqueGuy WilliamAnderson Caustic Soda Vander ZearothK Adept Nightingale Jimmy4400nav ThingOne Mantis42 Danann Dr karma silverpower tatankatonk Duckbag Dux Supremus Raserys ChrisAsmadi Soup du Jour Beet Muskatnuss Zikan TOTAL 31  Rubix Squid LJN92 Sleep of Bronze NewMars AJ_Impy nothing to seehere AdventFalls Necroskowitz BwenGun Semquais Luhood Aeromancia lenoon Captain No-mates Frozen_flame Blackunknown Lord Cyrahzax Cestrian RZApublican Gyra_Solune (/w elements of A?) Lynneth monster on a stick Beerdeer Hitlers Gay Secret Pyroi Talas mcclay Lord Windy Unwise_Cashew nuvan MarsDragon Vagon Averrences TOTAl: 32
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May 17, 2014 20:46
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B if it's not too late. I like A, but B has more tricks.
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May 17, 2014 20:58
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Voting on this closes at midnight EST. If the two stay close, I'll just combine aspects of both of these, since they both have their interesting aspects. Mod progress report: I'm at the stage where doing more mostly just feels like setting up more things to break when Wealth of Nations comes out that I'll just need to do again later (since national ideas, decisions/policies, unit balancing, India, religion, etc. are all changing pretty heavily, it looks like) so the vote after this will be about Rome itself again-- real Senate business where we determine the party set-up going into EU4. I'll post the details tonight, but start making icons (or dredging up treasured ones from the past) since the party you create (or revive!) could be one of the main parties this time!
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May 17, 2014 20:58
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Vote A
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May 17, 2014 21:02
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With the vote so close, I'll go ahead and make a closing pitch for Mandate of Heaven (or at least MoH parts). I'll say right off the bat that Patter Song's 'Legacy' scenario is an interesting one for China and the Ming. They're surrounded by pliant puppet states, and have no immediate threats in the area. Korea is shattered into (mostly) hermit states and Japan has to deal with the Mongols. For the three most recognizable Asian nations we think about, it's an cool game. But there's half the problem for me. It's a cool game for those three nations. Vietnam is a tributary nation and a vassal, Thailand appears to not exist, and EU4 China in vanilla was only restrained from world domination by being in the worst tech group - a problem this timeline doesn't have. The other half is that while I recognize a world with a super-powered expansionist Ming would likely have Sinocized states on its periphery, the sheer scale of their European collapse makes me question if the Sinocized states closer to China proper would have been sustained. Mandate of Heaven? Yeah, Dominion of Amaterasu looks silly on its face. There's a crazy Thailand with Catholic lineage. Vietnam stands strong. And the existence of a strong Ainu-led state might make eyes roll. But Asia is probably the clearest divergence from OTL in this entire timeline. With the technological and potentially philosophical center lying on China's side of the world, it stands to reason that the past ~50 years of Chinese aggression WOULD have caused everyone else to reevaluate their places in the world. It should be crazy, and it should arguably feel like the 'Europe' of vanilla EU4 - not in the sense of a bunch of squabbling princedoms, but that there's a bunch of nations that a player could pick and have it be a unique game.
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May 17, 2014 21:06
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I'll just briefly say that in my proposal with the exception of Annam (which more or less would correspond to 20th century North Vietnam) there'd be no Chinese vassals south of Ming until you get to the "Zheng He" outer ring (Malacca, Brunei, Ceylon, Zanzibar), none of which would be vassals in my scenario but independent Sinicized states like Persia and Somalia and Leon already are in the mod. Southeast Asia would not start off Ming-dominated, and there's plenty of leeway for Rince to adjust things in my proposal, possibly including a powerful Thai state, or possibly including a great deal of Thai states: you never stated which "Thailand" your Catholic one is. What's its capital, what's its orientation? Is it based in Sukhothai? Ayutthaya? Thonburi? Bangkok?
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May 17, 2014 21:17
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Patter Song posted:I'll just briefly say that in my proposal with the exception of Annam (which more or less would correspond to 20th century North Vietnam) there'd be no Chinese vassals south of Ming until you get to the "Zheng He" outer ring (Malacca, Brunei, Ceylon, Zanzibar), none of which would be vassals in my scenario but independent Sinicized states like Persia and Somalia and Leon already are in the mod. Southeast Asia would not start off Ming-dominated, and there's plenty of leeway for Rince to adjust things in my proposal, possibly including a powerful Thai state, or possibly including a great deal of Thai states: you never stated which "Thailand" your Catholic one is. What's its capital, what's its orientation? Is it based in Sukhothai? Ayutthaya? Thonburi? Bangkok? Bangkok. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an A&B scenario mix and that's probably where we're heading.
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May 17, 2014 21:19
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By the way, one of the reasons I've been so hopeful about Annam (and have proposed it as a tag in Visc's LP and this one) is because it has a cool flag and is a ready-made tag in EU4 and yet it never, ever appears in game and no one puts it into mods because they're boring and use the Dai Viet tag for everything Vietnam-related, so I'd really like to see Annam be the Vietnam tag of the game for once.
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May 17, 2014 21:25
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##Vote B!
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May 17, 2014 21:26
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I quite like A, and I haven't voted yet. ##VOTE A
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May 17, 2014 23:50
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Ghostwoods posted:I quite like A, and I haven't voted yet. Same here. I will come out of lurking to help ensure A victory.
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May 18, 2014 00:41
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Vote A because B has some very silly elements and Zheng He was pretty cool.
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May 18, 2014 00:53
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##VOTE A
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May 18, 2014 00:58
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Vote B
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May 18, 2014 01:44
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##Vote B
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May 18, 2014 02:50
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Vote B, because I like the silly elements.
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May 18, 2014 02:51
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I feel like we have enough 'silly' Paradox LPs going that the pendulum can swing back to the more 'realistic' Wiz-style narrative. And I think it would be neat to get a plausible alternate history where China was the superpower of the modern era.
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May 18, 2014 03:20
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 Vote closed!
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May 18, 2014 05:03
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StrifeHira YF-23 DerLeo Freudian Flesnolk Technowolf Patter Song Ghetto Prince Alexey Rejected Fate ThatBasqueGuy WilliamAnderson Caustic Soda Vander ZearothK Adept Nightingale Jimmy4400nav ThingOne Mantis42 Danann Dr karma silverpower tatankatonk Duckbag Dux Supremus Raserys ChrisAsmadi Soup du Jour Beet Muskatnuss Zikan Talky Ghostwoods RubricMarine Dire Wombat Alikchi TOTAL 36 Rubix Squid LJN92 Sleep of Bronze NewMars AJ_Impy nothing to seehere AdventFalls Necroskowitz BwenGun Semquais Luhood Aeromancia lenoon Captain No-mates Frozen_flame Blackunknown Lord Cyrahzax Cestrian RZApublican Gyra_Solune (/w elements of A?) Lynneth monster on a stick Beerdeer Hitlers Gay Secret Pyroi Talas mcclay Lord Windy Unwise_Cashew nuvan MarsDragon Vagon Averrences Readingaccount Fox Ironic Roadie cokerpilot Grizzwold TOTAl: 38 A very close vote, and between the two vote margin and Gyra_Solune (and probably some others) explicitly voting for combinations of A and B, so we'll be combining aspects of A and B into a mighty cyborg Asia.
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May 18, 2014 05:27
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Cyborg Asia is the best Asia! I can honestly say I'm happy to go with it. So, when can we expect the senatorial parties thing to open up?
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May 18, 2014 05:33
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Probably tomorrow, when I have time to write up a thing.
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May 18, 2014 05:35
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Any hints as to what exactly we will or wont be seeing in cyborg Asia?
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May 18, 2014 05:51
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