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Roadie posted:Here's a question for you, unrelated to Hex chat: why is Strive written in a way that's totally backwards from how you actually use it? It seems like the templating would be a lot more intuitive if it was written in a way that added extra targets to a one-target spell instead of the existing version. I don't see how it's backwards. In the process of casting a spell, choosing targets comes before determining and paying costs. So you select any number of targets as you initially declare it, then Strive tells you how much the spell will cost you based on how many targets you selected.
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May 15, 2014 18:00
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Roadie posted:Game mechanics can't be copyrighted. Does the suit mention the client at all? What I've seen from streams the game play looks like a carbon copy of Duels of the Planeswalkers.
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May 15, 2014 18:01
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Does the suit mention the client at all? What I've seen from streams the game play looks like a carbon copy of Duels of the Planeswalkers. Yep! It has pictures and everything.
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May 15, 2014 18:11
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Roadie posted:Game mechanics can't be copyrighted. A card is not a mechanic, it is a game piece. A magic card is more akin to a dnd adventure than a specific rule or rules. You can't copy a to hit table maybe, but you can copyright a dungeon module. You may not be able to copyright the concept of a resource cost for cards, but if a card costs 2W and has a specific effect, that is much deeper than duplicating a mechanic. That is taking the idea of the card itself and just putting different artwork/frame on it. The gameplay functionality is 100% copied. Rift can copy mechanics, but they can't copy whole books and just put different artwork and page layouts on them.
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May 15, 2014 18:19
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Snacksmaniac posted:Go Do It GR monsters is totally viable, but pretty expensive. There's some Rg aggro decks but they're basically mono red splashing for ghor clan rampager and fanatic of xenagos.
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May 15, 2014 18:38
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GR looks fun but there's no way I'm buying Domris at this point.
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May 15, 2014 18:41
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Jimmy Jazz posted:GR monsters is totally viable, but pretty expensive. There's some Rg aggro decks but they're basically mono red splashing for ghor clan rampager and fanatic of xenagos. Most GR monsters have branched into Jund Monsters with abrupt decay and vraska or brave naya with all part white creatures for brave the elements.
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May 15, 2014 18:41
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Samael posted:Most GR monsters have branched into Jund Monsters with abrupt decay and vraska or brave naya with all part white creatures for brave the elements. Isn't brave Naya a weenie-ish deck not a big creature deck like G/* monsters?
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May 15, 2014 18:51
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Armchair lawyers in the MTG thread? Well I never. I don't see why we're all speculating. Here's the actual complaint: http://www.scribd.com/doc/224144304/Wizards-of-the-Coast-v-Cryptozoic-Entertainment-et-al It has three causes for action. 1) Copyright infringement: quote:Cryptozoic copied the cards, plot, elements, circumstances, play sequence, and flow of Magic... Cryptozoic copied the overall plot, elements, theme, mood, setting, pace, creatures, and sequence of Magic. As demonstrated in more detail above and as will be shown at trial, Cryptozoic copied the physical layout and ornamental aspects of Magic cards, the visual presentation of each card on the screen is substantially similar to the same sort of card within the Magic card game in either its paper or electronic versions; the sequence and flow of the game, the scoring system used by the game, and the overall look and feel of the game are identical. Notice they don't reference the game mechanics specifically in these direct allegations. Just the more creative aspects like game flow. The comparisons are are merely background. 2) Trade dress infringement: quote:Cryptozoic deliberately and intentionally copied the game play, rules, player interaction with the game, layout and arrangement, visual presentation, sequence and flow, scoring system, and Magic’s overall look. By duplicating the “total image and overall appearance of a product,” Cryptozoic has copied Magic’s particular trade dress, the copying of which shows confusion among Wizards’ customers. Now this argument I don't buy. It's not like while playing hex you're going to be confused as to whether you're actually playing magic. Everyone realizes they are similar, but there's no mistaking that one IS the other. At all. You'd have to make them compatible with each other almost to do that like megablox work with lego. 3) Patent infringement Here's their updated patent: https://www.google.com/patents/USRE37957?pg=PA25&dq=RE+37,957&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c_x0U-zPBc6woQShqYHgDQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAg It seems to me Hex does exactly what a lot of those claims describe. But, they don't go in to any details of which ones were copied. What that means for the lawsuit however I don't know. As for waiting for cryptozoic to run out of money or something, they claim they've been in negotiations for some time. Now I'm sure the negotiations consisted of an ultimatum of, 'give us all revenue or shut down immediately,' but still. It's not like they dropped this on them out of no where. Also it has several large grammatical mistakes, lol.
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May 15, 2014 18:51
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jassi007 posted:A card is not a mechanic, it is a game piece. A magic card is more akin to a dnd adventure than a specific rule or rules. You can't copy a to hit table maybe, but you can copyright a dungeon module. You may not be able to copyright the concept of a resource cost for cards, but if a card costs 2W and has a specific effect, that is much deeper than duplicating a mechanic. That is taking the idea of the card itself and just putting different artwork/frame on it. The gameplay functionality is 100% copied. Rift can copy mechanics, but they can't copy whole books and just put different artwork and page layouts on them. So, no one can ever print a card that costs 3 resources and kills a dude now that Magic has done it?
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May 15, 2014 18:59
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MorphineMike posted:So, no one can ever print a card that costs 3 resources and kills a dude now that Magic has done it? You can't print a NOT MAGIC card that costs 1 NOT BLACK and 2 NOT COLORLESS to kill a NOT CREATURE and pass it off as something distinct from Magic.
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May 15, 2014 19:01
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MorphineMike posted:So, no one can ever print a card that costs 3 resources and kills a dude now that Magic has done it? Not if it costs the same amount of resources including one of the same color, and is worded exactly the same?
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May 15, 2014 19:02
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Cactrot posted:You can't print a NOT MAGIC card that costs 1 NOT BLACK and 2 NOT COLORLESS to kill a NOT CREATURE and pass it off as something distinct from Magic. In which case, Hex is in the clear because it doesn't cost any colours of resource, because the game doesn't use coloured resources. (Also MtG's Murder costs 2 black) Yes, they're functionally very, very similar. And I'd agree, if Hex had copied a complex card like Jaya Ballard and said it was distinct, that would be silly. But saying Magic is the sole domain of all evil spells that kill people for 3 resources is just silly.
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May 15, 2014 19:06
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Jimmy Jazz posted:GR monsters is totally viable, but pretty expensive. There's some Rg aggro decks but they're basically mono red splashing for ghor clan rampager and fanatic of xenagos. Naya Hexproof is an option in those colors too. Just don't play Voice and use Fleecemane Lion instead for the cheaps. It isn't as good, but we're talking FNM, not the Pro Tour.
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May 15, 2014 19:06
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What is the converted mana cost of a Bestow card when used as an aura? I'm thinking about my Heroic/Bestow deck against Eidolon of the Great Revel.
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May 15, 2014 19:11
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BizarroAzrael posted:What is the converted mana cost of a Bestow card when used as an aura? I'm thinking about my Heroic/Bestow deck against Eidolon of the Great Revel. It's the number in the upper right, regardless of how you cast it.
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May 15, 2014 19:11
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Jimmy Jazz posted:GR monsters is totally viable, but pretty expensive. There's some Rg aggro decks but they're basically mono red splashing for ghor clan rampager and fanatic of xenagos. I own the cards I was just trying to find a list to work from.
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May 15, 2014 19:15
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Vomax posted:It's the number in the upper right, regardless of how you cast it. Yep. Same applies to flashback and the like. Alternate costs don't count as converted mana cost. Bestow, flashback, etc are abilities of the card, not actual casting costs.
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May 15, 2014 19:17
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Snacksmaniac posted:I own the cards I was just trying to find a list to work from. 4 Courser of Kruphix 4 Elvish Mystic 4 Ghor-Clan Rampager 4 Polukranos, World Eater 3 Scavenging Ooze 4 Stormbreath Dragon 4 Sylvan Caryatid 1 Xenagos, God of Revels 4 Domri Rade 2 Xenagos, the Reveler 3 Mizzium Mortars 8 Forest 5 Mountain 2 Mutavault 4 Stomping Ground 4 Temple of Abandon
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May 15, 2014 19:22
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MorphineMike posted:So, no one can ever print a card that costs 3 resources and kills a dude now that Magic has done it? Of course that is what I'm saying. No card game can change the resource identity by say not making the colors match exactly with Magic or the casting costs all must be the same. Cryptozoic couldn't even do it with the other TCG they produced. Except that they did. You can't seriously deny the fact that they grocked the mechanics, color, resource costs down to the split of how many specific colored resources vs. any color resources. There is similarity and copying. I mean, I guess you can make the argument that it isn't copying if I makes a spell that costs 3 resources and a Black resource that gives a target creature/unit/ally/troop -1 power and -1 toughness and draws you a card, but you'd probably get a lot of looks of disbelief that you didn't copy the card word for loving word.   MorphineMike posted:In which case, Hex is in the clear because it doesn't cost any colours of resource, because the game doesn't use coloured resources. (Also MtG's Murder costs 2 black) You are wrong about the resources. I just went and read the hex rules. For the above card, you must have one "blood" resource, which is purplish/black/evil in play and 3 of any other for a total of 4 resources to play that card. That is exactly the same as magic requiring 1 black mana and 3 other to play it. jassi007 fucked around with this message at 19:28 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 19:24
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I love the idea of some game dev just looking through his box of common cards and being like, "okay, gently caress it, people never play these anyways, why not".
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May 15, 2014 19:26
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I'm guessing that at this point, with 20 years of Magic cards printed, it would be impossible for any new TCG to not have some cards that match existing Magic cards in their functionality.
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May 15, 2014 19:28
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tgijsola posted:I'm guessing that at this point, with 20 years of Magic cards printed, it would be impossible for any new TCG to not have some cards that match existing Magic cards in their functionality.
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May 15, 2014 19:32
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tgijsola posted:I'm guessing that at this point, with 20 years of Magic cards printed, it would be impossible for any new TCG to not have some cards that match existing Magic cards in their functionality. I think it's more that any game with mechanics as closely copying Magic as Hex's do is inevitably going to wind up with a bunch of the same cards. The fact that they wound up with such similar cards isn't a separate issue from having such similar mechanics, it's evidence of how closely they copied the mechanics.
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May 15, 2014 19:34
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tgijsola posted:I'm guessing that at this point, with 20 years of Magic cards printed, it would be impossible for any new TCG to not have some cards that match existing Magic cards in their functionality. Most other TCG's take the route of not having the resource system ape magic's exactly. Usually it is something like wowtcg where there was no identity to resources, it was just have 4 or Pokemon which has different resourcse but cards don't have casting costs, resources are for powers on the cards. Pokemon also happens to have been developed by Wizards, so they can't object to strong to Nintendo continuing to develop the mechanics for the game Wizards built. Hex straight up apes cards with color, casting cost, and effect. The only things different are the name, art, and frame layout, none of which are gameplay elements. If we made 2 proxy decks of magic cards and hex cards, they would be interchangable with a sheet to tell you which abilities equated to the other. Thats why they're suing. You could literally shove Hex cards in a magic deck and it works with zero rules changes, just and understand that blood = black mana, crush = trample etc.
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May 15, 2014 19:34
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people in this thread are so terrible at interpreting ip law
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May 15, 2014 19:35
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jassi007 posted:Of course that is what I'm saying. No card game can change the resource identity by say not making the colors match exactly with Magic or the casting costs all must be the same. Cryptozoic couldn't even do it with the other TCG they produced. Except that they did. You can't seriously deny the fact that they grocked the mechanics, color, resource costs down to the split of how many specific colored resources vs. any color resources. There is similarity and copying. Word for word doesn't mean what you think it means. Also, how else would you word Murder? Also, I'm not saying they didn't copy them. I'm just saying at some point, you have to step back and say "sure, copying the basic stuff is ok", because if not then, as tgijsola says, you just can't print a whole gamut of cards. quote:You are wrong about the resources. I just went and read the hex rules. For the above card, you must have one "blood" resource, which is purplish/black/evil in play and 3 of any other for a total of 4 resources to play that card. That is exactly the same as magic requiring 1 black mana and 3 other to play it. Yes, because if I have 100 forests and 2 swamps I can cast 100 Murders in MtG (hint: I can't. It's the major difference between resource mechanics in the game.) Edit: jassi007 posted:Hex straight up apes cards with color, casting cost, and effect. The only things different are the name, art, and frame layout, none of which are gameplay elements. If we made 2 proxy decks of magic cards and hex cards, they would be interchangable with a sheet to tell you which abilities equated to the other. Thats why they're suing. You could literally shove Hex cards in a magic deck and it works with zero rules changes, just and understand that blood = black mana, crush = trample etc. Actually, there are pretty big differences, especially noticable in the current MtG block. There are no auras - they're the sorcery equivalent that alters the card's text or numbers for that game. A card with Bestow would have to be majorly reworded to work in Hex, and not just changing the names. MorphineMike fucked around with this message at 19:39 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 19:36
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Also it has several large grammatical mistakes, lol. I've never seen an entertainment industry lawsuit that hasn't (and, not being a lawyer, I only see the high profile ones that get into news). What the hell's going on with that, I don't know. Let's Read Journey Into Nyx: Chapter 1 Tagline: A New God Rises to Threaten the Fragile Peace of Unnecessary Capitalisation Or of  , but I like mine better. It doesn't suffer from bad compression or looking really awkward if your reading background isn't the plain white default. Does .mobi support better image formats than jpg?Technical quirks aside, roll the story.  (Willian Murai, Anax and Cymede, THS) Someone is using the old horse's head gambit on Anax and Cymede. The heads are from various Nyxborn animals, but it's basically the same otherwise. A freshly beheaded one has been showing up somewhere in their palace every day, for the past week. Today's is a stag. Anax used to be sexist but Cymede changed him. Sort of, because he's reverting to type here. I dunno, Elspeth seemed totally OK in the city for the last book. This doesn't quite feel like a genuine bit of world-building, just kind of like Helland thinks it's something that should happen when modern authors write about societies that had bad gender views. An assumption of equality like for Meletis would have been find by me. We'll see if this is genuinely meant.  (Sam Burley, Heliod's Emissary, THS) Cymede's noticed that the animals map to gods: someone with a sense of irony is making sacrificial animals out of symbols of the gods. (This is a cool bit of writing, I like it). As best I can tell, Boar = Iroas, Bull = Mogis or Purphoros, Swordfish = Thassa, Lynx = Nylea, Sable = Karametra, Stag = Heliod. No-one else has seen this, because all the priests and oracles are concerned with more worldly things like how someone's killing them and sneaking them into the palace. I dunno, it stretches plausibility a lot, but it has a little merit as an illustration of mortal thoughts straying from the gods now that the Silence has fallen.  (Willian Murai, Hero of Iroas, BNG) Anax mixes confidence and insecurity in a way that I can believe, unlike Heliod's previous mess of contradictory traits. Cymede suspects that the heads are being left around to undermine him, and believe that it's his brother. Anax is a bit blustery, but certain that he'd be challenged man-to-man if he was going to be overthrown. Cymede also turns out to be wrong on point about his insecurity: she think his being convinced by an oracle that there would be a minotaur attack on the city is an aspect of it, rather than what I'm sure will be the truth.  (Adam Paquette, Iroan Games concept art) Cymede tells Anax to hold games to Iroas in the hope that it will calm him down and she can slip away, though she just tells her husband that maybe Iroas will be moved to break the gods' Silence. He goes off to organise "half-naked men brawling in the mud for the glory of an absent god." It's a nice turn of phrase, but I'm highly disappointed that they aren't totally naked.  Cymede disguises herself and uses secret tunnels through the palace that go down to the river, which she shouldn't know about because ~*men*~ (again, this doesn't feel like naturalistic writing, and ignores her supposed improvement of Anax's views). The graffiti in them is a nice little touch though.  (Daarken, Keranos, God of Storms, JOU) The natural forces that the gods used to control are now unleashed, and a huge storm is building without Keranos' oversight. Cymede's attitude to the gods is very strange. She's an oracle who has kept herself unaligned, despite worshipping Keranos. And despite worshipping Keranos, she smiles at the thought that a storm is wrecking stuff without his permission. She also turns out to be a secret mage, and we find this out because she has a sequence which feels like it was written for the big screen, not a book. Her tunnel comes out in the side of a gorge 100 ft above the river, and she just steps out. She uses waves to throw her all over the place, and pulls rocks out of the gorge to literally use as stepping stones up the water. It doesn't feel like it belongs in a book, but it's a decent bit of imagery anyway.  (Willian Murai, Divination, BNG) Cymede casts Divination in the Temple of Keranos she spent so much unnecessary effort and showing-off to get to. She looks like she does in the art, the temple looks like it does in the art. Look at the art. Keranos cheats the Silence by sending her a vision. Hundreds of minotaurs, emerging from a room of burning light, which becomes a howling mouth, which becomes a satyr's face. *dramatic chord* Sleep of Bronze fucked around with this message at 20:12 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 19:42
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C'mon guys...https://hextcg.com/ruby/ posted:
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May 15, 2014 19:44
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MorphineMike posted:Word for word doesn't mean what you think it means. Also, how else would you word Murder? It's not just that cards have the same effects, it's that they cost exactly the same. Nobody would argue that Ancestral Recall is the same thing as Concentrate, but arguably a different game design would lead to a different cost of resources. If Hex cards have a 1:1 correlation to Magic cards, down to cost, color requirement, effect, and speed, maybe it's a sign that their game is a rip off.
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May 15, 2014 19:52
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MorphineMike posted:Word for word doesn't mean what you think it means. Also, how else would you word Murder? I understand what you mean a card that says "destroy target creature" is a basic concept most games that have cards like that will contain. I looked up wowtcg, and the card there was a warrior card Vanquish cost 4. The color mimicry and the descriptions of the colors matching so closely, in addition to cards in the specific colors mimicing effects is what makes it over the top. A card like murder will certainly be in each game, but it won't always be 1 + black + black The same game also won't also necessarily have the nature color be green and have a card that costs one green resource that name is "Adjective" Growth that gives a creature +power and + toughness until the end of turn. There are logical effects for card games, and then there is straight copying cards. This article is pretty good, from an actual lawyer that plays MTG. http://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/05/understanding-the-wizards-v-hex-lawsuit-in-plain-english/ One point he makes is a case that sets precedent that specific features/mechanics by themselves aren't infringing that if you combine them all together and you get a decidedly similar product, then it is infringing. I think this is where the point about a destroy target creature card goes. The mechanic makes sense. But also copying the resource cost and putting it in a color/faction/team that clearly mimics Magic's color pie is to many pieces together to not be infringing.
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May 15, 2014 20:00
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More new art:
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May 15, 2014 20:19
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Angry Grimace posted:More new art: Wow that's a pretty sweet picture that looks absolutely nothing like Baghdad. At all.
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May 15, 2014 20:23
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Jenx posted:Wow that's a pretty sweet picture that looks absolutely nothing like Baghdad. At all. On the plus side, outside of draft the original Bazaar of Baghdad exists on MTGO.
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May 15, 2014 20:28
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Jenx posted:Wow that's a pretty sweet picture that looks absolutely nothing like Baghdad. At all. It looks like Agrabah, is what it looks like.
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May 15, 2014 20:30
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I'm pretty interested in how long WOTC actually intends to keep VM up on MTGO though. They only had Modern Masters up for a few weeks, correct? But I can't see them not having this for a few months after going to the effort of making new art for every card and figuring out an enormous set of cards for drafting purposes, particularly when most of these cards don't even currently exist on MTGO at all.
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May 15, 2014 20:40
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Sorry guys, magic has claimed black as a color for "death" in card games. All future card games will have to come up with another color that's thematically related to death. Cyan, maybe. Also, magic has printed "kill a dude" cards that cost B, 1B, 2B, 1BB, and 2BB. So the new cyan cards that kill dudes cannot cost C, 1C, 2C, 1CC, or 2CC. Sorry everyone.
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May 15, 2014 20:41
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jassi007 posted:I understand what you mean a card that says "destroy target creature" is a basic concept most games that have cards like that will contain. I looked up wowtcg, and the card there was a warrior card Vanquish cost 4. The color mimicry and the descriptions of the colors matching so closely, in addition to cards in the specific colors mimicing effects is what makes it over the top. I get where you're coming from, but isn't casting cost/color requirement more of a balance thing? Are you suggesting that Hex's developers should give Murder a new cost/color (and change the card's balance and place in the metagame) simply to make it less identical to the MTG equivalent?
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May 15, 2014 20:43
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Zonekeeper posted:I get where you're coming from, but isn't casting cost/color requirement more of a balance thing? Are you suggesting that Hex's developers should give Murder a new cost/color (and change the card's balance and place in the metagame) simply to make it less identical to the MTG equivalent? he's saying the cost of murder is identical because whilst it should be based on the games metagame, Hex's metagame is almost entirely identical, as it is mostly all copied over.
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May 15, 2014 20:55
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Yeah, like, once you've copied the entire resource system, action economy, and turn structure of Magic wholesale obviously a lot of the individual game pieces are going to look alike. That's the funny thing to me, the apparent inability or unwillingness of anyone involved in Hex to envision a game working any other way. I have a hard time caring about WotC's intellectual property rights but god drat this is hilarious.
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May 15, 2014 21:00
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