|
Parachute posted:What about when Vader remotely chokes out that guy on the other ship in ESB? He could have just ordered another guy to shoot that guy.
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 18:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 20:50 |
|
|
IT BEGINS posted:What context exactly? I can't think of anything off the top of my head that's particularly important - I suppose training Anakin as a promise to Qui-Gon is a point, but I don't see that it's particularly important to the story. Obi-Wan was the first Jedi in the series to lose a loved one to the Sith (here defined as the team that wears black and carries red lightsabers), and his pain over the loss of his master is why he cannot imagine the idea that they might be redeemed. His hate made him powerful, but he cannot attain the compassion that Luke can. He doesn't believe Dooku when Dooku attempts to betray Sidious by revealing his existence, he doesn't even try to understand Anakin's "point of view," he lies to himself that his "brother" died in the Purge rather than accept the horrifying truth that he perpetrated it, and he gives up his own life (deliberately engineering the same scene he witnessed before) so that Luke will be motivated to carry on his vengeance. Darth Maul stabbing Qui-Gon is the root of the reason why Obi-Wan insists Luke must kill his father. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 18:10 on May 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 18:06
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:Obi-Wan was the first Jedi in the series to lose a loved one to the Sith (here defined as the team that wears black and carries red lightsabers), and his pain over the loss of his master is why he cannot imagine the idea that they might be redeemed. His hate made him powerful, but he cannot attain the compassion that Luke can. He doesn't believe Dooku when Dooku attempts to betray Sidious by revealing his existence, he doesn't even try to understand Anakin's "point of view," he lies to himself that his "brother" died in the Purge rather than accept the horrifying truth that he perpetrated it, and he gives up his own life (deliberately engineering the same scene he witnessed before) so that Luke will be motivated to carry on his vengeance. Darth Maul stabbing Qui-Gon is the root of the reason why Obi-Wan insists Luke must kill his father. That's a good point. I don't think it comes across very well in the movies, though, without a very close look. And like the guy who came up with Machete Order says, you could certainly watch Episode 1 afterwards as a sort of 'Here is some backstory to the backstory' that would make this all come together. I don't think it (TPM) fits in the context of 'the redemption of Anakin' or even 'the rise and fall of Anakin/Luke' as a story.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 18:21
|
|
|
The real reason to watch The Phantom Menace is because no movie or series of movies has ever been made anything but better by the inclusion of a chariot race.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 18:24
|
|
|
Outlaw Vern on forceghosts: "[Ben] has a trick up his sleeve. He lets Vader win, almost definitely an idea he got from 3PO saying 'I suggest another strategy: let the Wookiee win' during a star chess scene earlier. They should have a flashback to make it more clear. Ben just stands there and leaves himself open to saber-chopping, but he waits until Luke is there to see it. This is not an accident. When he knows he has all the pieces in place he actually smiles. [...] POETICAL: Kenobi gets struck down but he symbolically lives on through the lessons he taught Luke and the powerful actions Luke performs in combination with the rebel star fleet. One young Jedi with an army is more powerful than an old Jedi out in the desert alone." Associating 'let the wookie win' back to the lasersword battle is pretty brilliant. As gone over here and elsewhere, Chewbacca is pretty much a 'wookie power' icon who performs a wookiee identity based on re-appropriated stereotypes (e.g. 'wookiees pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose'). Darth Vader, being a Jones-voiced angel of justice is not much dissimilar - something picked up on in Vader Sessions, Blackstar Warrior and so-on. The chess game is also Turing Test imagery, but I hadn't considered that it ultimately represents the 'light' and 'dark' sides of the force (as understood by Obi-Wan and the Republic Jedi) in conflict. Both Chewie and R2 go beyond the basic rules of the game by threatening violence and redefining victory, respectively, allowing them to manipulate the results. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:55 on May 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 18:51
|
|
|
IT BEGINS posted:But he gets promoted to Jedi Knight before he is given Anakin to train. Yoda and the others don't want Anakin to be trained, not specifically that Obi isn't capable of having a padawan. It's definitely something that's missed, but is it important? It's not really brought up at all in the later movies, and while I don't see that it adds much to explaining Anakin's fall. It does have a part to play because he chose to train Anakin because of the promise that he made to Qui Gon. Not because he felt the same as Qui Gon that Anakin needed to become a jedi.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 19:05
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:The real reason to watch The Phantom Menace is because no movie or series of movies has ever been made anything but better by the inclusion of a chariot race. It's probably been discussed here before but I was made aware of this edit of TPM and gave it a whirl. Being the first time I've actually seen this movie in years, I could come at it with a bit of distance to see what the editor was trying to accomplish. It does a lot to rectify the problems with TPM (the weird background of trade disputes, most of jar-jar's nonsense, nearly all of Anakin's worthless dialogue) and leaves this story where two Jedi are sent to resolve a dispute between two worlds, get caught up in the Sith's plans without knowing it. They also pick up one or two characters on their way to the capitol. The problem with the edit is you can't edit in scenes that don't exist. It goes to highlight how devoid TPM is of any character growth and development. Players go from one scene to the next as the plot unfolds but there was nothing for the editor to include to help humanize each actor. I see he included a bunch of deleted scenes (Padme's family) for his Episode II cut to try and flesh out Padme and Anakin. I'll have to see how that works out. But still, it's a fan edit (with all the drawbacks that includes) that does well to try and present the story of two Jedi getting way more involved in something then they planned to. But the film is too rushed because it needs non-existent scenes where the characters can stop and be relatable human beings once and a while.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 19:33
|
|
|
Vintimus Prime posted:It does have a part to play because he chose to train Anakin because of the promise that he made to Qui Gon. Not because he felt the same as Qui Gon that Anakin needed to become a jedi. I suppose, but the problem is that this isn't really referenced or alluded to later in the films. I mean, on the whole I agree with Bongo Bill in that these are relevant bits of character information that do come back for some nice mirroring in characters' arcs. I just don't think they are important enough to sit through 2+ hours of Phantom Menace, especially given how cleanly the Machete Order fits together. I think it's a useful story to tell if done right, but not relevant if done poorly (which it was). As a similar example (that may be a bit of a stretch): you don't need to read the Kevin J. Anderson prequels to read Dune. The prequels give a lot of cool backstory to characters that make you better understand the events that happen in Dune, but the books are absolute garbage that's not worth spending time on, despite the little 'a-ha' moments that you may gain from doing so. IT BEGINS fucked around with this message at 19:42 on May 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 19:39
|
|
|
I think omitting The Phantom Menace would be bad because then you'd miss the one Star Wars film that is actually genuinely kind of loving weird. Or maybe that's a good thing? I don't know, but I did a rewatch of the prequels recently and it was honestly the only one that I didn't get bored with while watching. Maybe I was tired when I watched the others, but TPM feels very different from the others. verybad fucked around with this message at 19:45 on May 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 19:42
|
|
|
IT BEGINS posted:I suppose, but the problem is that this isn't really referenced or alluded to later in the films. I mean, on the whole I agree with Bongo Bill in that these are relevant bits of character information that do come back for some nice mirroring in characters' arcs. I just don't think they are important enough to sit through 2+ hours of Phantom Menace, especially given how cleanly the Machete Order fits together. I think it's a useful story to tell if done right, but not relevant if done poorly (which it was). Counterpoint: They are important. Thwomp posted:It does a lot to rectify the problems with TPM (the weird background of trade disputes, most of jar-jar's nonsense, nearly all of Anakin's worthless dialogue)... Missing the forest for the trees.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 19:45
|
|
|
sassassin posted:Missing the forest for the trees. Yes, I know. It's polishing a turd. I just thought it was an interesting take on the film that actually drew more attention to the original's flaws than correcting them. sassassin posted:Counterpoint: They are important. It would be important if Obi-Wan ever admitted to regretting to train him. Then you could go back and say here is where Obi-Wan made his first mistake. Instead, there's nothing. Just lament that Anakin fell to the Dark Side. So I don't see how any character moments (such as they are) in TPM are important enough to warrant including a watch of TPM in a viewing order.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 19:56
|
|
|
Reminder that JarJar Binks is The Phantom Menace's audience identification character and de facto protagonist.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 19:57
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Reminder that JarJar Binks is The Phantom Menace's audience identification character and de facto protagonist. I agree with this statement and the ramifications are insane.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 20:00
|
|
|
I love Jar Jar, anyone who cuts him or redubs him to sound more foreign is bonkers.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 20:02
|
|
|
It's not explicitly addressed but you have to wonder how many of Anakin's issues are due to him sensing/otherwise being aware that his parent didn't want him? "My combination dad/uncle/brother/teacher is only doing this out of obligation" has gotta warp your development.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 20:15
|
|
|
Tender Bender posted:It's not explicitly addressed but you have to wonder how many of Anakin's issues are due to him sensing/otherwise being aware that his parent didn't want him? "My combination dad/uncle/brother/teacher is only doing this out of obligation" has gotta warp your development. Obiwan may have started to train him out of obligation, but he comes to love him. He's not lying when he says, "I loved you, Anakin."
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 20:17
|
|
|
Jerk McJerkface posted:I agree with this statement and the ramifications are insane. He also plays a HUGE role in Palpatine's rise to power. Perhaps it is Jar Jar that is the Phantom Menace.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 20:24
|
|
|
Bung Harmer posted:He also plays a HUGE role in Palpatine's rise to power. Perhaps it is Jar Jar that is the Phantom Menace. Well, going by the second and third prequels, GL felt the same way and tucked him in the back.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 20:38
|
|
|
IT BEGINS posted:Why do you think they were intended to be viewed 1 -> 6 and not 4 -> 6, 1 -> 3? Just because they are numbered by where they are chronologically in the story doesn't mean they work as a story in that way. Someone already pointed out Hayden Christensen in the final shot of Jedi... But also the story is clearly intended to be 1 to 6. You're supposed to be shocked when Anakin goes dark side in that scene where Sam Jackson dies like a bitch. You're supposed to be surprised when Darth Sidious turns out to be Palpatine. Qui Gon supposedly talking to Yoda sets up Obi Wan's sacrifice (and really diminishes the drama there. Oh ok not to worry he's still alive lol) And so on. Except the prequels do a poo poo job of setting up those revelations. There is *no* saving bad story telling and no amount of dipshit explaining it away fixes it. My Star Wars fantasy has three parts: someone else takes over and continues the franchise (check)… release the theatrical originals in beautiful HD with nothing but photographic fixes... And reboot the prequels so I can see what that story would have looked like if done competently, with love, and by someone who had the OT scripts nearby as reference material.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 20:38
|
|
|
Jerk McJerkface posted:Well, going by the second and third prequels, GL felt the same way and tucked him in the back. Nobody would have had a problem with Jar Jar (his diminished role would not have been necessary) if his portrayal in The Phantom Menace had been like it is in Clone Wars, where he doesn't mug for the camera.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 20:46
|
|
|
Jerk McJerkface posted:I agree with this statement and the ramifications are insane. It's not really that insane. JarJar grows as a person, while nearly all the other characters persist in their ways and learn nothing. JarJar says in one scene that he was quite happy to be wandering through the jungle - "my day started pretty okay with a brisk morning munch" - but gradually realizes that "people are going to die," and decides to do something despite being scared, clumsy and so-on. He risks his life for these idiots, and they betray him. That JarJar's positive traits are devalued is not the fault of the film, or the character, but of those who fail to recognize them. Quigon calls him brainless, and Jar Jar responds "I speak!" Quigon then snaps back that "the ability to speak does not make you intelligent." And of course, Quigon is totally wrong. Of course being capable of speech means intelligence - it goes straight back to the Turing Test imagery in A New Hope. Fans caught up in the Jedi ideology take what Quigon says at face value, and have simply accepted that JarJar is objectively subhuman. The focus on JarJar's speech is crucial to the character, down to the 'random' gag where his tongue is paralyzed. See also the gag where Quigon grabs his tongue to chastise his intolerable behaviour. Jar Jar's various alien tics make him the perfect target for racism. There's a great dynamic between JarJar and Quigon where he treats him with utter contempt. Jar Jar, for his part, is skeptical of the force - literally calling it bullshit at one point. And he's aware of the racism against his people, blaming it on fear of the Gungans' Grand Army - not so much that their army can threaten the Republic, of course, but that it demonstrates their resistance to assimilation into the liberal multiculture. Jar Jar might be naive, but he's not callously indifferent like the others. When he gets tasered by a cop for no reason, he shouts "how rude!" - and that's also his response to learning that slaves are implanted with remote-detonation explosives to prevent escape. Calling it 'rude' is an understatement, but nobody else even blinks an eye. hhhat posted:My Star Wars fantasy has three parts: someone else takes over and continues the franchise (check)… release the theatrical originals in beautiful HD with nothing but photographic fixes... And reboot the prequels so I can see what that story would have looked like if done competently, with love, and by someone who had the OT scripts nearby as reference material. This, I claim, is ideology. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:58 on May 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 20:53
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:jarjar Jarjar is complete inept retard comic relief, which is how Lucas view his audience. Especially since after the turd of Phantom Menance in 3D he decided to take his ball and go home.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 21:24
|
|
|
Actually, it's pretty clear from all the language barrier imagery, and JarJar's explicit marginalization, that Lucas expected his audience to identify - incorrectly - with the authoritative white people. And they did.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 21:31
|
|
|
hhhat posted:You're supposed to be shocked when Anakin goes dark side in that scene where Sam Jackson dies like a bitch. You're supposed to be surprised when Darth Sidious turns out to be Palpatine. Why would you say that you're supposed to be surprised by these things then immediately say that the films do a lovely job of making you surprised by them? It's almost as if, gasp, the films have something else to say about these things and aren't that concerned with keeping them from you. It's almost as if you're not a Jedi "clouded by the dark side" and can see it right there plainly on the screen.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 21:56
|
|
|
You're clearly not supposed to be surprised when Palpatine reveals he is Sidius because in Ep1 when Yoda says there are always two Sith, a master and apprentice, the camera pans over and lingers on Palpatine and Anakin standing side by side.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
hhhat posted:Someone already pointed out Hayden Christensen in the final shot of Jedi... But also the story is clearly intended to be 1 to 6. You're supposed to be shocked when Anakin goes dark side in that scene where Sam Jackson dies like a bitch. You're supposed to be surprised when Darth Sidious turns out to be Palpatine. Citations needed
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 22:26
|
|
|
Breakfast All Day posted:Why would you say that you're supposed to be surprised by these things then immediately say that the films do a lovely job of making you surprised by them? It's almost as if, gasp, the films have something else to say about these things and aren't that concerned with keeping them from you. It's almost as if you're not a Jedi "clouded by the dark side" and can see it right there plainly on the screen. In a medium is the message way, the fan audience is well aware that the Jedi are working for the Empire but persist in cheering for them because they are Jedi. They are clouded by the dark side just as much as Yoda. How can a policeman be a bad guy?? Without an onscreen text, signed by George Lucas, reading 'ACTUALLY, IT IS NEVER COOL TO CALL A PERSON SUBHUMAN BECAUSE THEY TALK FUNNY' fans persist, and have persisted, in thinking that is correct behaviour. They then blame an external agent for their failure. "Clearly George Lucas is to blame for my feelings, as he is both massively powerful and a subhuman vermin that we should cleanse." And of course, that's exactly how Return Of The Jedi is misinterpreted: the Republic is fine so long as the emperor is killed - just pay no attention to Quigon's racism.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 22:26
|
|
|
 
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 22:30
|
|
|
Breakfast All Day posted:Why would you say that you're supposed to be surprised by these things then immediately say that the films do a lovely job of making you surprised by them? It's almost as if, gasp, the films have something else to say about these things and aren't that concerned with keeping them from you. It's almost as if you're not a Jedi "clouded by the dark side" and can see it right there plainly on the screen. You're supposed to be surprised because movies aren't supposed to be transparent and predictable. Because that makes them dull and lovely and painful to experience. Even if you *know* who Palpatine is, there should be an element of suspense and mystery built into the story. Good movies do this well, and that makes them not just popular, but rewatchable because the twist is a great story element and not just a ham-fisted plot point that has to be in there because 'welp this part's where Anakin is now Darth Vader' or whatever. I guess there's only so many ways for me to say the prequel screenplays were poorly written and executed. If you really want to make the argument that the Jedis were clouded by the dark side and that's why it was done the way it was done, then that was also really shittily thrown in. Because all you get is Yoda telling the audience how clouded by the dark side he is. Why not put Palpatine on screen in full out red and yellow eye crazy face talking to Yoda with a hissing creepy voice and Yoda and company responding back like he's reading the weather? There's soooo many fun and interesting ways to convey dramatic irony. Telling me through a throwaway line that you as a character don't know something I would know if I saw a *different* movie is re-loving-diculous.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 23:06
|
|
|
Now this. This is why I'm in this thread.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 23:07
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's not really that insane. JarJar grows as a person, while nearly all the other characters persist in their ways and learn nothing. JarJar says in one scene that he was quite happy to be wandering through the jungle - "my day started pretty okay with a brisk morning munch" - but gradually realizes that "people are going to die," and decides to do something despite being scared, clumsy and so-on. He risks his life for these idiots, and they betray him. I like your take on Jar Jar. There's an odd scene in TPM when Obi Wan is piloting the submarine ship, and then they have a power problem and then a giant fish monster tries to eat them. Jar Jar flips out, and then Qui Gon, from the back seat, gives him some kind of "Vulcan nerve pinch", knocking Jar Jar out. Obi Wan says "You over did it". I was a bit surprised both by Qui Gon's aggression, and Obi Wan's critique. Later, of course, Obi Wan continues to critique Qui Gon. Obi Wan was also far less positive towards Jar Jar than Qui Gon.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 23:10
|
|
|
hhhat posted:Now this. This is why I'm in this thread. It isn't the ten pages of people trying to convince you that the Jedi are evil and The Phantom Menace is anything but utter garbage?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2014 23:33
|
|
|
kiimo posted:It isn't the ten pages of people trying to convince you that the Jedi are evil and The Phantom Menace is anything but utter garbage? No... not really, no. Yeah... nah. (image redacted. I'm too lazy to get imgur or whatever, I think I might have been leeching? but here it is if you wanna get all fired up https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/p526x296/10359535_746535818731355_7561851006576269951_n.jpg) hhhat fucked around with this message at 00:12 on May 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 17, 2014 00:10
|
|
|
Every movie must have mystery, even prequels to movies that literally everyone on earth has seen. Arguing that the prequels suck should be the easiest thing ever but everyone who tries in this thread suffers some kind of aphasia and is unable to string together coherent thoughts. SMG is a sith lord.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2014 00:19
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:The force ghosts don't literally exist but represent the memories that will live on in Luke's heart. They do literally exist, as Star Wars is a Fantasy, where psychology is made real.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2014 00:48
|
|
|
There are plenty of complaint a people cane cel against the prequels but Folks just repeat echoes of the voices in the current pop cultural hive mind of entitled nerds who want things how they imagine they should be and judge things not as they are but by how far they deviate from their expectations.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2014 01:08
|
|
|
There is good in [the prequels].
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2014 01:19
|
|
|
I legitimately have always liked TPM. AOTC is the worst of the prequels, but it has some good parts. ROTS is better than AOTC, not as good as TPM, and is super uneven. TPM is the only "real" movie of the prequels as it's self contained and has a far more lived in "feel" than the next two, which feel rushed in parts.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2014 01:22
|
|
|
Arguing whether the prequels are just good or just bad obscures the main point this thread has uncovered: there are more, and different, things going on in the films than most people think.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2014 01:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 20:50 |
|
|
Lord Krangdar posted:Arguing whether the prequels are just good or just bad obscures the main point this thread has uncovered: there are more, and different, things going on in the films than most people think. Yeah it's pretty telling that a lot of negative complaints boil down to "this wasn't what I was expecting therefore it's bad". Especially the complaints that Star Wars is supposed to be "fun" and therefore there can't be negative attitudes in it. I mean we know from the OT that the Galactic Republic fell, replaced by the Empire, and that Anakin must have been a major part of that because he was tapped by the Emperor to become a Sith Lord. How else do you think that would happen except in a tragedy (as in Shakespearean Tragedy) format?
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2014 01:49
|
|
