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May 19, 2014 09:34
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Angry Grimace posted:They never get active unless you're winning anyways and you're required to force/splash multiple oolors to use them. Yes, and they do absolutely nothing else, right? They're still exceptionally good enchantments that have an occasional even better upside. I mean, I'm not sure you would manage to handle hasty, beat down from Xenagos just about every turn. Nylea also had more than serviceable pumping that occasionally pushed some damage through too. Athreos did all sorts of control and aggro enabling strategies from the various limited games I've seen him pop up in. Like, they are anything but underwhelming for the most part. The one god I can think that is underwhelming in draft is Kruphix, and he's just stupid amazing in EDH.
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May 19, 2014 09:36
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Ramos posted:Yes, and they do absolutely nothing else, right? They're still exceptionally good enchantments that have an occasional even better upside. I mean, I'm not sure you would manage to handle hasty, beat down from Xenagos just about every turn. The problem is that they're not huge bombs because they are conditional as creatures, but you still have to force multiple colors to play them.
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May 19, 2014 09:46
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Angry Grimace posted:The problem is that they're not huge bombs because they are conditional as creatures, but you still have to force multiple colors to play them. So then everything is going to be underwhelming then unless it wins the game on its own. Perhaps you should just accept they're good cards that serve as a great backbone to a deck that you will pull on occasion. They aren't going to finish the game if you shove them in any old deck without any thought or precision. I rather like my limited meta Wurmcoil Engine free unless we're talking power cube or something.
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May 19, 2014 09:55
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Ramos posted:So then everything is going to be underwhelming then unless it wins the game on its own. Generally speaking, no, I don't draft multicolored cards early in a draft unless they are decently likely to win me the game on their own.
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May 19, 2014 10:01
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Angry Grimace posted:Generally speaking, no, I don't draft multicolored cards early in a draft unless they are decently likely to win me the game on their own. Man, I don't know what to tell you, you seem to draft with a narrow mind in what is good or not. Not to mention, Theros block really doesn't work with the usual drafting strategy either due to how synergy and combat trick happy it is.
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May 19, 2014 10:07
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:He's never really the villain in any stories that feature him though, even the rape of Pesephone has him playing the role of trickster insead of antagonist. Anyway, Let's Read Journey Into Nyx: Chapter 8 The battle is over. They finished off the minotaurs who had been watching the duel on the Akroan side of the wall without much difficulty and humanity is saved! Yay! Anax, who got fully impaled by a giant, divinely empowered minotaur with a burning sword, is alive and has declared a great revel in celebration. Yeah, I have no idea how the hell he is, either. I'm going to ignore that little bit of stupidity because he's never again of relevance. If the words 'great revel' are setting off warning bells in your head, congratulations, by the way.  Cyril van der Haegen, Eidolon of the Great Revel (JOU) Anthousa, Daxos, Nikka and Elspeth meet up in their tent, slightly away from all the feasting and dancing. A more private dinner for them. Nikka acts brattish, but seems to have deeper and truer causes for concern. Her father hasn't deigned to see her, her king got gutted and a load of her country's soldiers killed, and while the gods temporarily broke the Silence, they didn't seem to go all the way. Instead, as she confirms with Daxos, something else is happening. Daxos' oracular senses perceive it as the sound of fire; Nikka's as pins against her skin. She rushes off, then Anthousa notices she's alone in the tent with Daxos and Elspeth. She scrams too. Daxos and Elspeth gently caress. Elspeth wakes to an air of heavy magic. She and Daxos are forced into lethargy while outside the revel turns bad. Screams and panic, not joy. Xenagos and another man enter the tent, holding Elspeth magically in place with head bowed. The overload in her senses thanks to Xenagos' magic lets her perceive Nylea's arrowhead near his heart. He demands she tell him where her sword is, but it's already been stolen by someone else.  James Ryman, Boon of Erebos (THS) Xenagos' companion is Sarpedon, the priest of Phenax. Or not so much any more. For his discussion with Elspeth and the doubts it inspired, Phenax cut off his lips, sewed his mouth shut, and possibly blinded him into the bargain. Nice fellow. But Erebos, desperate as ever for oracles, picked up the abandoned priest, and worked out a deal with Xenagos - he can use Sarpedon if he hands Daxos over to Erebos in exchange. Xenagos just tells Sarpedon to kill them both; he leaves to find Godsend himself. Apparently my jibe about Dementors earlier was on the mark - not only does the presence of Erebos/his minions make you relieve the worst moment of your life, but Sarpedon is now trying to kill Elspeth with a kiss. This is just going way too far, Helland. Come on. Elspeth fights him off and kills him, but the corpse dissolves into fumes from Erebos anyway. Daxos wakes enough to tell Elspeth that he forgives her before she's overcome.  Todd Lockwood, Phyrexian Obliterator (NPH) The worst moment of Elspeth's life was apparently that final battle alongside Koth. Koth had trapped her in rock, forcing her to Planeswalk away and leave him to the hopeless fight against New Phyrexia. An Obliterator had broken down the door before she could get out, gutted her and was about to execute her. But in this vision, she actually manages to get her hand on some piece of metal handy and stab it in the heart. Yay! Yeah, not so much. Nikka wakes her from the Erebos despair, and she sees she's stabbed Daxos. He's dead, unlike Anax. Nikka's in a hell of a panic, but Elspeth just barely has it together enough to grap armour and Godsend from her, and then get them both out of there. As they run, the stars start draining from Nyx, until the sky is just pure black. When they stop ... more bad news. The stars come back, but the rush of energy that precedes this was Xenagos ascending. He can now be seen in the heavens. Also, Nylea and Heliod were apparently watching the action on the ground via their oracles. They possess Nikka to pronounce vengeance on Elspeth as the killer of Daxos and an aide to Xenagos the usurper. They will break the Silence to destroy her. Ah.  Lucas Graciano, "Xenagos' Scorn" playmat
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May 19, 2014 10:07
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Ramos posted:Man, I don't know what to tell you, you seem to draft with a narrow mind in what is good or not. Not to mention, Theros block really doesn't work with the usual drafting strategy either due to how synergy and combat trick happy it is. I'm not suggesting they are bad if you have those colors, I'm saying its a super dicey proposition to draft any particular god's color just because you pulled one.
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May 19, 2014 10:11
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Sleep of Bronze posted:Xenagos' companion is Sarpedon, the priest of Phenax. Or not so much any more. For his discussion with Elspeth and the doubts it inspired, Phenax cut off his lips, sewed his mouth shut, and possibly blinded him into the bargain. Nice fellow. But Erebos, desperate as ever for oracles, picked up the abandoned priest, and worked out a deal with Xenagos - he can use Sarpedon if he hands Daxos over to Erebos in exchange. For clarification, was Elspeth fighting a blind man who was trying to kiss her? Because that's kind of hilarious. Angry Grimace posted:I'm not suggesting they are bad if you have those colors, I'm saying its a super dicey proposition to draft any particular god's color just because you pulled one. Okay then, that's pretty different from bad and underwhelming to pull.
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May 19, 2014 10:15
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Ramos posted:For clarification, was Elspeth fighting a blind man who was trying to kiss her? Because that's kind of hilarious. quote:His handsome face had been ruined. His lips had been cut off and the skin sewn together with rough black stitches. His veiled eyes were stark and gray, like the sky before a storm. But, basically, yes. Lips sewn shut, eyes at least veiled and possibly non-functional, and he's killing her by kissing her. It's a thing. It's just about threatening because she's held still by the revel magic/Xenagos/despair until he's partway into the Dementor Kiss. But when she breaks off and can now move, you should start feeling a bit sorry for him, yeah.
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May 19, 2014 10:24
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I'm failing to grasp why Elspeth doesn't just bounce to some other plane. Is it difficult or something?
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May 19, 2014 11:01
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Up 'til now, because of Daxos. After now, because she wants to murder Xenagos for inducing her to kill him.
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May 19, 2014 11:19
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Maybe this is entirely because I started playing a million years ago and I'm not real familiar with the power scale of new planeswalkers, but doesn't Elspeth have some sort of reality bending magic at her command?
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May 19, 2014 11:21
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In as much as all magic is reality-bending by definition, well, yeah.  To answer the intent of that question ... not enough to like gently caress up Xenagos' ascension while he's doing it or something. In the context of this block and these books, she's already withstood an assault from Heliod. From that example and others we have seen and will see later in the book, new Planeswalkers are about on par with the gods in a duel. Neither can easily outmuscle the other on raw power; 'walkers can generally go broader, but the gods have indestructibility and stronger control in the area of their portfolio. There's also a lot of powers that oldwalkers had, practically by virtue of just being a Planeswalker back then, that new walkers would need to study hard at for ages and have it be within the sphere of their speciality. Elspeth can't just teleport over to the Temple of Mystery for example (or up to into Nyx if that were possible) - though Venser might just have been able to.
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May 19, 2014 11:50
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Olothreutes posted:Maybe this is entirely because I started playing a million years ago and I'm not real familiar with the power scale of new planeswalkers, but doesn't Elspeth have some sort of reality bending magic at her command?
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May 19, 2014 11:50
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Basically, planeswalkers are above average wizards who have even more potential for power due to their ability to travel like they do. They're no longer reality creating/ending gods who can shapeshift at will.
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May 19, 2014 12:46
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Also they can die now too. That means there is no more Head-Urza shenanigans.
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May 19, 2014 12:51
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First, I want to discuss that last bit of the previous chapter and why I think it's quite clever. The one thing that Helland has been introducing to Theros, above and beyond what we've seen in the cards, is the power of oracles. The gods need them to see stuff at the human scale, and to translate their divine language. So this isn't a matter of Nylea and Heliod blaming Elspeth for being mind-controlled, which would be profoundly stupid and smack of clumsy authorial interference so that Elspeth could be harassed on the way to the Temple of Mystery while Xenagos finishes ascending. The gods didn't get to see any of (very important) context to that scene - whenever Nikka burst in on Elspeth stabbing Daxos like he was her most hated nightmare, that was all they got. And, well, that don't look so good. Hell, given Xenagos' mindwarping gig, Nikka might have been seeing far worse than that, and the gods wouldn't know it. I rather like it. Let's Read Journey Into Nyx: Chapter 9 "She vowed not to leave Theros until she’d avenged Daxos’s death. And if she needed to force her way into Nyx and kill Xenagos herself, then she would do it." Yeah, no planeswalking away from this for Elspeth. Though she doesn't really like to do it a lot anyway. It's an interesting point, that goes a little with her relationship with Ajani (he's turning up soon btw). He Sparked while she was already a knight on Bant - and she Sparked very young, probably before she was ten. At the absolute minimum, she's got a decade of planeswalking experience on him, and it's probably far more. But whenever they interact after Alara, she treats him like the older, wiser and stronger of the two. In one of the Uncharted Realms stories, he assures her that eventually your body acclimatises to 'walking and it doesn't feel like knives stabbing you - he can know this because he's been out there constantly, seeing all the worlds, and really taking up the mantle of Planeswalker. Meanwhile Elspeth takes everything slowly and prefers to stay in one place and to act as normal as she can. Thus Ajani takes the role almost of a father or mentor, despite what you'd expect.  Winona Nelson, Lost in a Labyrinth (THS) Elspeth has run from Nikka, far into the Nessian Forest. Eventually, she has to lie down to sleep. Unsurprisingly, she has nightmares about Daxos. When she wakes, the forest seems to have turned into a maze - the trees and plants forming smooth walls to either side that she can't break even with Godsend. She starts to hear voices, accusations of murder and evil.  Volkan Baga, Leafcrown Dryad (THS) A dryad and a pack of wolves start hunting her through the maze, until they wind up at a ruined temple. The dryad declares that Heliod wants Elspeth to face his wrath - either torture or a self-righteous lecture before she dies, I presume - while Nylea will be content just with Elspeth's dead body.  Mike Bierek, Temple of Abandon (BNG) They begin to fight, but before long a pack of leonin show up - the unbelievers of Theros, who have a grudge against what they see as the tyranny of the gods. They think that the ancient beings known as archons were helped by the gods when they ruled over the leonin and then drove out them from their cities. The leonin have some kind of magic that can dispel the Nyxborn wolves and force the dryad to flee.  Adam Paquette, Revoke Existence (BNG) And Ajani's with them.   Aaron Miller, Ajani, Mentor of Heroes (JOU)
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May 19, 2014 13:03
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All this art looks a lot better blown up like that. I think a lot of the "modern" art is hard to make out and looks kinda lovely on the cards even if it looks great in higher resolution.
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May 19, 2014 13:08
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So, Anax got impaled and God stole his wife and hia response is to party like it's 1999?
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May 19, 2014 13:21
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I'm pretty sure Anax is meant to be some kinda illusion or something, it doesn't really make sense to me otherwise.
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May 19, 2014 13:29
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netcat posted:All this art looks a lot better blown up like that. I think a lot of the "modern" art is hard to make out and looks kinda lovely on the cards even if it looks great in higher resolution. Seriously. This is making me take a second look at a bunch of cards I previously didn't think were anything special, there's some really great detail here
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May 19, 2014 14:21
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Zorak posted:Not all cards are for standard plaaaaaay But can't they at least be good enough for Block Constructed? Or have the block designed to help them be playable? On the other hand, this is similar to the angels of Avacyn Restored, where the promotional cards are all casual/edh stuff and the Block Constructed Promotional Tour showcased the playable mythics and mechanics. Maybe it'd hard to hit two birds with one stone, or maybe they're kept separate on purpose?
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May 19, 2014 14:29
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Ajani's age *is* kind of weird when you think about it. He's presented as this mentor figure, but we've seen him from the moment his spark ignited, and it hasn't been that long... which makes it rather weird that Ajani knew Brimaz. Is it just a thing where there's a couple years after Alara before the events of Zendikar happen?
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May 19, 2014 15:57
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Ramos posted:So let me get this straight: Ahahaha what? Like, have you even looked at Karametra or Mogis or Phenax and held them in contrast to Thassa (and to an extent, Xenagos and Ephara)? I think it's pretty glaringly obvious which gods even remotely have playable potential, hosers aside.
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May 19, 2014 16:00
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Yeah I really can't imagine why WotC didn't make all 15 cards in a cycle of indestructible enchantments pushed enough to be constructed staples.
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May 19, 2014 16:02
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Zoness posted:Ahahaha what? Like, have you even looked at Karametra or Mogis or Phenax and held them in contrast to Thassa (and to an extent, Xenagos and Ephara)? I think it's pretty glaringly obvious which gods even remotely have playable potential, hosers aside. Keranos is actually really, really good as a 1-of in Legacy Miracles. And I like Mogis against certain decks.
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May 19, 2014 16:16
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So as pointed out by multiple people now, Lore Seeker doesn't specify which kind of booster pack you have to pick. Or even what sort of game it has to be from on the card. Clearly time to draft a Yugioh booster pack.
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May 19, 2014 16:32
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Ramos posted:So as pointed out by multiple people now, Lore Seeker doesn't specify which kind of booster pack you have to pick. Or even what sort of game it has to be from on the card. Nothing says "fun" like making people draft My Little Pony cards...in Japanese...
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May 19, 2014 16:49
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Sleep of Bronze posted:In as much as all magic is reality-bending by definition, well, yeah. Yeah, I think mostly what I'm not clear on is where the current planeswalkers stand on the spectrum between some schmuck with magic and teleporting entire continents outside the timestream and using the souls of others to bomb a plane into oblivion (holy poo poo I never paid much attention to the fluff, Urza is totally loving insane and kind of a dick). It's been pretty clearly established that the likes of Urza and Lord Windgrace are gone forever (Teferi too, but in a less deathy sense), but I had assumed that being a planeswalker still put you on a level essentially unobtainable by beings anchored to a single plane by virtue of being a planeswalker. Elspeth seems to be able to create life at will through her soldiers and whatnot but I guess that isn't quite such a big deal? It sounds more like they are a little stronger than the average person and can walk, but that's about the end of the differences. Olothreutes fucked around with this message at 17:04 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 16:52
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Olothreutes posted:Elspeth seems to be able to create life at will through her soldiers and whatnot but I guess that isn't quite such a big deal? It sounds more like they are a little stronger than the average person and can walk, but that's about the end of the differences. Elspeth does that in the same way you (the player) summon creatures, which I guess is like using magic to create a copy of something that already exists.
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May 19, 2014 16:59
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Olothreutes posted:Elspeth seems to be able to create life at will through her soldiers and whatnot but I guess that isn't quite such a big deal? It sounds more like they are a little stronger than the average person and can walk, but that's about the end of the differences. My understanding is they're essentially stronger than normal mage types. I think the flavor there is more "hey you guys, come help me gank this dude," and not so much "arise from the aether and slaughter my enemies!"
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May 19, 2014 17:02
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goferchan posted:Seriously. This is making me take a second look at a bunch of cards I previously didn't think were anything special, there's some really great detail here I moved to using more art in the reviews partly because the conservative attitude to Magic art in this thread annoys me at times, and this seemed a good way to show off the full res stuff. They're turning out great work! forbidden lesbian posted:I'm pretty sure Anax is meant to be some kinda illusion or something, it doesn't really make sense to me otherwise.  Let's Read Journey Into Nyx: Chapter 10  Adam Paquette, Peak Eruption (THS) Xenagos' darkness in Nyx has reappeared (this thing's popping in and out of existence like nobody's bloody business). It's now a ring at the outer edges of the sky, horizon to horizon. And it's slowly creeping inward. The gods are not happy. Purphoros is throwing fireballs from his mountain up to the sky. They're not doing much. In fact they're falling back down on the land and, among other things, setting Nylea's forest on fire. Wonderful.  Mathias Kollros, Feral Invocation (THS) One of the leonin comments that Nylea's a bad goddess to make angry right now. A mortal she loved (and the implication is much more romantic love than 'I favour thee, tiny mortal') had been murdered. Oh, Elspeth. You end up in the worst situations. This sort of comes out of the blue. Daxos and Nylea did seem to appreciate each other's company, but actual love from the goddess? Probably a case where if the books were real, instead of a licensed ebook rushed out to meet marketing deadlines, the groundwork would have been better laid. She is a little physical with him in their scene in book 1 - more like that and I could see this being a nicely foreshadowed revelation instead of a blindside surprise.  Eric Deschamps, Solidarity of Heroes (JOU) After a sleep, Ajani takes Elspeth to a council of the leonin. Brimaz is there, so not dead. Didn't exactly expect he was. The gods are essentially on the point of declaring war on mortals, in vengenace for everything that led to Xenagos' ascension. Akros is already partly in ruins, and Heliod's going after Meletis. Karametra still protects Setessa but no-one can be sure how long that will last, whether she's pressured, argued or outright forced onto the gods' side.  Pete Mohrbacher, Born of the Gods key art When asked if Xenagos' apotheosis can be undone, Ajani feels sure it can be. He has a sense for the magic of planes (remnant from his dealing with the Alaran Maelstrom?), and his idea of the properties of magical metaphysics on Theros makes him confident. Even the other gods had beginnings - in fact, brought into existence by mortal belief. This idea of gods being the result of belief in gods is far too common and bores me. It was certainly new/interesting/transgressive once, but D&D has been dealing with the subject for several decades now - and has been forced to come up with more interesting twists on it. Just straight up presenting the core idea without anything new is unimpressive. Theogenesis is a giant part of the block story - surely they could have come up with something more original for the plane's take on it.  Pete Mohrbacher, Brimaz, King of Oreskos (BNG) Great, says Brimaz, all very interesting. But what do we do about all this? He orders a part of his warriors to Nykthos, to cut down the gods' new Nyxborn as they come through from Nyx. The rest will join a human army in the Nessian Forest, preparing an attack on the Nyxborn already in the mortal realm. Elspeth herself wants to go kill the hell out of Xenagos. Various objections are raised re: the difficulties of getting there, actually killing a god, yes your sword is very nice Elspeth but you don't know actually anything about what it does ... and so on. Elspeth doesn't care. Eventually the tribe's storyteller admits, like Medomai, that Nyx can be reached via the Temple of Mystery. But even there, you have to pass an ORDEAL OF [INSERT GOD HERE] to get into Nyx itself. Oh, and before the Temple, you have to actually get there. Just sailing to the edge of the world results in you going over the edge. Probably a bad idea. You have to get a pilot who knows what they're doing.  Chris Rahn, Voyage's End (THS) There are two possible pilots - the dryad Theophilia, especially beloved of Nylea, is the first. Elspeth (probably correctly) assumes that this is the one who was chasing her. Not really an option then. The other is Callaphe the Mariner, who's recently begun to be sighted again. She should be near the Siren's Shipyard. Brimaz eventually agrees to this plan. Ajani and Elspeth will come with him as far as their paths are the same, then peel off to JOURNEY INTO NYX. He's come around to anything that kills off a god. "The tyranny of the gods has gone on long enough, and the satyr doesn't deserve to have dominion over a pile of dirt. If I could find a way to bring him to his knees, I will happily cut his head off myself." (Completion %: 72)
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May 19, 2014 17:10
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Yeah, the flavor of planeswalker cards is you're calling in a favor. That's why when their loyalty hits 0 they leave. The biggest difference between planeswalkers and regular mages is potential. Because planeswalkers can travel beyond their home worlds they can build up more and more manabonds and learn more diverse spells. Power differs wildly between 'walkers even: Bolas and Sorin both have centuries of experience and are therefore stronger than someone like Domri or Chandra. Bolas just also has the extra benefit of being, you know, and Elder Dragon.
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May 19, 2014 17:11
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Sleep of Bronze posted:(Completion %: 72)
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May 19, 2014 17:12
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Everblight posted:Where are you finding all these (reasonably) high-res pieces of Magic art? You get best res off the giant Wizards weekly wallpapers, then you have to go looking for artists' personal sites, whether they're self-hosted, on deviantart, or even spamming posts on Facebook. (CGHub going down was a bit of a blow, because there were a few artists who were only hosted there). If you can't find an artist site, then see if the art was used to illustrate something in a Wizards column. If that fails, you have to find the best quality scan of a card and crop the art. So far I only had to do that last one for Borderland Minotaur, which I only bothered with because the image was so close to what was happening in the book. I wanted to use Stormcaller of Keranos, but couldn't because even the scans were too poor quality for me to bother. Those two are the only big problems I've had so far - it might take some digging, but it's almost certainly out there.
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May 19, 2014 17:23
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Chorocojo posted:Yeah, the flavor of planeswalker cards is you're calling in a favor. That's why when their loyalty hits 0 they leave. Yeah, consider the difference in power between a regular mage and a planeswalker as the difference between standard and block constructed. A mage on Theros is capable of summoning creatures on Theros and using magic they've discovered there, but a planeswalker can use spells from that plane, and from the plane they were on last week, and the plane they're from, and also anywhere else they want to go. An experienced planeswalker is basically playing with the spell range and power of modern, legacy, or vintage while their opponents are stuck with whatever's in their block.
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May 19, 2014 17:28
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Kabanaw posted:Yeah, consider the difference in power between a regular mage and a planeswalker as the difference between standard and block constructed. A mage on Theros is capable of summoning creatures on Theros and using magic they've discovered there, but a planeswalker can use spells from that plane, and from the plane they were on last week, and the plane they're from, and also anywhere else they want to go. An experienced planeswalker is basically playing with the spell range and power of modern, legacy, or vintage while their opponents are stuck with whatever's in their block. Even in fluff, being able to cast Sphinx's Revelation is broken bullshit.
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May 19, 2014 17:38
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Ramos posted:So as pointed out by multiple people now, Lore Seeker doesn't specify which kind of booster pack you have to pick. Or even what sort of game it has to be from on the card. Time to find out if my LGS has any more packs of Unglued left tucked away somewhere.
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May 19, 2014 17:42
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Kabanaw posted:Yeah, consider the difference in power between a regular mage and a planeswalker as the difference between standard and block constructed. A mage on Theros is capable of summoning creatures on Theros and using magic they've discovered there, but a planeswalker can use spells from that plane, and from the plane they were on last week, and the plane they're from, and also anywhere else they want to go. An experienced planeswalker is basically playing with the spell range and power of modern, legacy, or vintage while their opponents are stuck with whatever's in their block. In that regard, Karn should be the most overpowered and broken planeswalker of them all, since he should have the entirety of the Urza Block and Weatherlight saga on-hand. Start busting out those turn-one kills, man. 
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May 19, 2014 18:04
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