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gently caress cluster artillery. The game does not need more cluster artillery.
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May 21, 2014 07:45
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On the other hand, cluster artillery is mostly useful as counterbattery.
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May 21, 2014 07:46
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Can you imagine if the ATACMS could shoot at any remotely decent rate of fire? ATGM trucks would be even more useless than they already are. Hiding commands would be impossible. I mean, I just hate the way artillery works in general, because ALB was so much better about it, but cluster artillery with its extreme killyness just embodies everything that's wrong with it.
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May 21, 2014 07:48
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HE that never misses was my concept, not cluster.
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May 21, 2014 08:04
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Xerxes17 posted:HE that never misses was my concept, not cluster. Yep, this is what I was hoping ya meant :P This is worth pursuing for testing I think.
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May 21, 2014 08:16
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Ehhh I dunno. What if we repuprose them a bit: Pion and M110 become similar to Caesars, bigger damage but slower. M110A2s and Malkas become heavy-barrage artillery, drop the accuracy a few notches, increase aim and reload time a lot, give them a burst of like 20 with a medium shot interval. (we'd need to reduce their supply cost a lot). Ideally they'd only be able to do it 2 or 3 times in a match but really gently caress up a town, sort of like a non-napalm, slow burito? e: top attack HE could be interesting if that's what you mean?
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May 21, 2014 08:17
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Nah, just hyper accurate 203's. Edit: xthetenth posted:Absolutely. Uralgraznomod is the best name. We'll make the T-90 of mods. The practical, sound, easily implemented mod the people deserve. Noted, the numbers you put in for the C2 and the AS1+ are fine and I've changed the sheet to include then. I've also rejigged a few other numbers in bold that you raised. Next area of concern: the East Bloc might be too good in it's current form. Xerxes17 fucked around with this message at 10:14 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 09:26
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fantastic work power crystals, it's basically X Rebirth's modding system and that was the only thing that worked about that game
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May 21, 2014 10:31
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Another thing for Uralgraznomod: Infantry still work great without the bonus. Although the RPO, and presumably other flame weapons, are now a bit underwhelming having been double nerfed. On the other hand with tanks now having a role again, the problems with infantry price/availability feel even worse.
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May 21, 2014 16:04
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Has anyone written a Naval guide? I don't know where to start with it, and since it's the newest thing I kind of want to get some info on it. So far I've mostly just been getting my ships wrecked at ranges way outside my own. I'm assuming there are certain types of ships which exist just to act as missile defense?
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May 21, 2014 16:32
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Shanakin posted:Another thing for Uralgraznomod: Presumably you could make line-infantry* have plenty of availability and <40p cost (perhaps even <20-30), while keeping specialists more restricted but highly efficient at their jobs (ATGM teams, MANPADS). *Dudes with very short-ranged AT capability, not ERYX, Metys and the like. On artillery: I like it when it's: A) Area Effect/inaccurate B) Barrage based/restricted number of "shots" per game C) Not super-killy, but supportive of ground ops (mass-stun) The moment artillery becomes killy is when some dude masses 6+ pieces and starts shooting at CV hiding spots rather than to counter camping/support offensives. Likewise it can easily become a sniping fest (Bkan/CEASAR), which sort-of counters camping yet doesn't really *require* offensive play. Sure, taking out all the AA could make an offensive work better, but if the artillery is actually safer/more efficient at taking out targets than some risky tank swarm it can be counter-productive. It's a fine line for balancing reload time/supply costs and availability to restrict that if you want to keep "snipers" around. Rocket arty doesn't need to be that different, the main thing there is faster travel time for their munitions (balanced by higher supply cost/reload times). I'm tempted to try out this mod, but also to wait for the new DLC...
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May 21, 2014 16:50
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I'll have four days off Friday-Monday so I could help work on the mod. I'd like to play with making artillery like it was in Airland Battle, and fiddling with infantry transport prices to try to boost the relevance of line infantry. I'd return artillery to something like this: - Rocket Artillery (generally) doesn't do a whole lot of damage, but it deals a LOT of stun. Maybe make it fire faster so it's easier to coordinate with your push; it was a little hard to use right in ALB I think - 155mm howitzers are general purpose, being stunny, and killy, capable of smoking/suppressing/sniping in equal measure for maximum AP efficiency - 203mm howitzers are  guns for killing CVs, AA, high value targets, counterbattery fire etc.Meanwhile 81mm/107mm/120mm mortars are more or less the same deal but shorter range with faster firing times and so forth. Mortabis fucked around with this message at 17:32 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 17:28
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Arglebargle III posted:On the other hand, cluster artillery is mostly useful as counterbattery. Yes but 203s would be terrible at it because of the 60s aim time. ATACMS work really well because of clusters, but also because they can have rounds in the air in a matter of seconds. I mean, they'd be great against people who don't move their artillery after they barrage, but so are regular 203s (and, arguably, anything else given enough time).
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May 21, 2014 17:34
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Pimpmust posted:Presumably you could make line-infantry* have plenty of availability and <40p cost (perhaps even <20-30), while keeping specialists more restricted but highly efficient at their jobs (ATGM teams, MANPADS). That's pretty much the idea framework I've been working on. Line infantry is the default setting. Affordable and prevalent, and a pretty good common denominator of infantry stuffs, so they're always a decent choice if not brilliant. Reserves are mainly bulk expendable bodies, for doing things like sitting on the edge of a city to prevent an enemy foothold even under tank fire or to provide an anvil for things like sappers or fancier infantry to work in conjunction with. Shock infantry is for assaults, with enough availability that you can get a decent mass without permanently tapping out your deck if the first one is a botch, and good firepower against infantry, a bit better point for point than line so that they can do their job of clearing areas and so the cost of assault transports isn't an unreasonable tax on their combat efficiency. Elite infantry are there for pretty much two jobs. Things you've gotta have the fastest killiest dudes for, and early game deep strike stuff with the big, fancy and expensive helicopters. Specialists are pretty fine as is unless it turns out that there's much more turnover with the rest of the mod. quote:I'm tempted to try out this mod, but also to wait for the new DLC... Why not both? I'm trying to hold myself to a daily update cycle (seriously, many thanks to the guys putting in work so I've got numbers every morning) and swapping between the two is pretty painless.
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May 21, 2014 18:59
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203 and assorted heavy guns would probably be best off if you split them into two categories: -Modern ones (Malka and M110A1 basically) would basically be HE-equivalent ATCMS. Near pinpoint-accurracy accurracy, fast aiming time, 1-2 rounds per burst with a long reload between bursts plus above-average supply cost per shot (meaning comparatively low overall supply draw due to RoF), very low avaiability per card and high price per unit. Pure sniping specialists that are great for specifically killing that one unit, but horrendously inefficient at anything else. Good survivability, though, due to firing mostly single shots. -Old ones (M110, Pion, Koksan, the south-korean 175mm) would be what could best be described as breakthrough artillery. Comparatively crappy accurracy (comparable to older 155mm guns like the M109 or M109A2), long aiming time, long bursts with medium reload times and comparatively cheaper supply costs per shot than the modern heavy guns (but higher than medium guns still), with avaiability and pricing comparable to older medium guns. Not really capable of sniping, but capable of using massed big guns to pound even the worst doomfortress into the ground. Unresponsive, very vulnerable to counterbattery, too supply-hungry to be used often during a match in its intended purpose and utterly dependent on a robust supply line, but the most powerful tool in the game when you absolutely need that loving town/forest and everoyne in it to gently caress off and die.
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May 21, 2014 19:00
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The DLC is going to be a good while til release, done hesitate to try the mod til then 
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May 21, 2014 19:55
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Crush my dreams more why don't you. Tell me that infantry weapons in the same category don't actually use the same hit table entries.
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May 21, 2014 20:00
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They generally dont, praise christ. But a few inexplicably do 
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May 21, 2014 20:02
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Magni posted:203 and assorted heavy guns would probably be best off if you split them into two categories: Fast aiming time for 203s is a no-go because at current HE levels it would just be way too easy to use it to smash any attempts at pushes as soon as you spotted them. This is basically the domain of Rocket Artillery right now, which is annoying enough already when the other side knows how to use it right.
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May 21, 2014 20:03
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Dandywalken posted:They generally dont, praise christ. That's so bad. Either all so you can edit categories easily or none so you don't have randomly tied together values. I'm trying to throw together a rough sketch of scandiboo low end availabilities. Basically I'm trying to make lighter tanks and more enhanced cents within a nation higher vet so they're more attractive as mobile units where getting good shooting quickly is more valuable than resilience under fire, while bleeding the ability of them to generate a critical mass of cheap tanks. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 20:43 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 20:29
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Hubis posted:Fast aiming time for 203s is a no-go because at current HE levels it would just be way too easy to use it to smash any attempts at pushes as soon as you spotted them. This is basically the domain of Rocket Artillery right now, which is annoying enough already when the other side knows how to use it right. Long reload time for the modern precision pieces plus the AoE of 1-2 203 shells is nowhere near that of a MLRS salvo. Add an extremely low number of pieces due to avaiability restrictions and you end up being able to really ruin a (stationary) unit every three minutes or so, but unless that single unit happens to be completely vital to the entire thing, you're not gonna stop a concerted push unless everything tries to go through the same bottleneck simultaneously just as your shot arrives. What you end up with is an ATACMS counterpart with shorter range and HE instead of cluster AP damage. Magni fucked around with this message at 22:19 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 20:39
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power crystals posted:Ok, here's another one. Please read the disclaimers below before continuing because it's still not done, it's just less not done than before. I tried out this one and it is very nice indeed. Next I'm gonna ask you for the ability to add instances.
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May 21, 2014 20:41
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I think today I'll actually not be guaranteeing an updated version, I'm gonna be trying to do spreadsheety things, and hammering out a first draft of tank-like vehicles and maybe a rough idea for infantry if I'm really quick.
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May 21, 2014 20:49
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Hob_Gadling posted:I tried out this one and it is very nice indeed. Next I'm gonna ask you for the ability to add instances. Reading xthetenth's posts I was already planning exactly that (and delete). Speaking of balance stuff, is there any reason ships had their deck guns tagged as [DEF]? Or are they just way more accurate than I thought and this actually makes sense?
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May 21, 2014 21:23
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Magni posted:Long reload time for the modern precision pieces plus the AoE of 1-2 203 shells is nowhere near that of a MLRS salvo. Add an extremely low number of pieces due to avaiability restrictions and you end up being able to really ruin a (stationary) unit every three minutes or so, but unless that single unit happens to be completely vital to the entire push, you're not gonna stop it a concerted push unless everything tries to go through the same bottleneck simultaneously jsut as your shot arrives. What you end up with is an ATACMS counterpart with shorter range and HE instead of cluster AP damage. I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "ATACMS Counterpart" since "Long Range" and "Cluster" are two of its major defining characteristics. Plus, you've already got fast-firing artillery with shorter range that does HE damage in the form of the variety of lesser rocket artillery that's available. IF you really pulled in availability then I might be able to see it working; as is, it's very easy to get 110s in numbers and at prices that let you pretty much ignore any reload time limit by rotating through batteries. I guess maybe you need to back up a few steps though because I'm not really sure what problem you're trying to solve with this sort of change.
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May 21, 2014 21:23
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power crystals posted:Reading xthetenth's posts I was already planning exactly that (and delete). Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... they have anti-air roles IRL. Its quite excessive though IMO, given most ships dont really need it given CIWS etc. Also I'm starting to brief modders on your tool's development, and the reaction has been extremely positive so far!
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May 21, 2014 21:37
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quote:Speaking of balance stuff, is there any reason ships had their deck guns tagged as [DEF]? Or are they just way more accurate than I thought and this actually makes sense? and yes its useful sometimes ingame, especially on ships with limited CIWS arcs or ammo supplies. IRL it probably doesn't work on relly fast waveskimmers but w/e.
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May 21, 2014 21:46
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So, thinking of trying to get the following to work: Give a cluster bomb a Napalm's coding, in that there is a second delayed "Fire" effect. Change that fire effect totally so it isnt fire at all. It will be triggered 0.2 to 0.5 seconds after the CBU's HEAT/AP load. It'll be a second burst that occurs in the same area, but HE damage instead of HEAT. This will allow the CBU's to visually be more accurate (since a CBU's bomblets sort of jizz out over a few moments, rather than simultaneously) as well as allowing true dual-purpose CBU's without neglecting AP or HE totally. So CBU is dropped. AP part hits. 0.5 seconds after, secondary CBU explosion effect blows on the ground, this being HE. Thus, the bomb has done both damage types. The "Fire" is given an instantaneous "burnout", but 100% ignition chance to assure the hit takes effect. This could even allow for neat stuff like incendiary CBU's with magnesium bomblets etc.
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May 21, 2014 22:09
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Serious question, I haven't played anything but ALB since the open beta ended. Without basing my opinions on the like 5 games I played back then, should I still buy this one or just keep playing ALB and wait it out for the next incarnation, whatever it is?
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May 21, 2014 22:31
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I EVER SPENT
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Hubis posted:I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "ATACMS Counterpart" since "Long Range" and "Cluster" are two of its major defining characteristics. Plus, you've already got fast-firing artillery with shorter range that does HE damage in the form of the variety of lesser rocket artillery that's available. Very short aim time and incredible precision in exchange for glacial reloads, high supply consumption per shot and very low avaiability. Think the classic ALB Malka, just even more polarised in both strenghts and weaknesses. Rocket arty is a completely different beast, exchanging killing power for the ability to stun and panic wide areas, and ATACMS is *nothing* like the other MLRS. quote:IF you really pulled in availability then I might be able to see it working; as is, it's very easy to get 110s in numbers and at prices that let you pretty much ignore any reload time limit by rotating through batteries. I guess maybe you need to back up a few steps though because I'm not really sure what problem you're trying to solve with this sort of change. Avaiability was already noted in my original post... -Very few guns (2 max per card, one-two cards I'd say) for the modern "sniper"-style heavy guns. I'm literal when I say making them the HE counterpart to ATACMS. They'd be abolutely brutal for precision sniping HVTs, but virtually useless for anything else simply because you couldn't fire enough shots even if you took as many of them as possible. -Numbers comparable to mid-range medium guns (M109 or M109A2) for the older "breakthrough" 203s. They're meant to gently caress over stationary doomforts. Glacial aim times, but long bursts with a rate of fire only slightly below medium barrage arty (3-4 rpm as a first yardstick imo). Very high supply use for sustained bursts and a constant need of a supply source because they carry virtually no ammo themselves. True counterbattery magnets, too, due to these factors. Magni fucked around with this message at 22:38 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 22:36
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DarkAvenger211 posted:Has anyone written a Naval guide? I don't know where to start with it, and since it's the newest thing I kind of want to get some info on it. So far I've mostly just been getting my ships wrecked at ranges way outside my own. I'm assuming there are certain types of ships which exist just to act as missile defense? For navy v. navy, get the cheapest longest range ASM boats you can, the cheapest and best CIWS boat you can, and a card of a command boat that doesn't suck for it's AA missiles and guns for cleanup, shore bombing, and capping points. You will also need supply boats. They way you use them is blob them up with the CIWS boats in front of the ASM boats and launch missiles at max range toward the other boats until they are dead, all while having a supply boat nearby to provide more missiles. Also, never ever for any reason use supply to repair boats, it takes a stupid amount of supply which would be better spent on missiles to make other boats dead. Congratulations, you are now the boat master.
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May 21, 2014 22:42
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InstantInfidel posted:Serious question, I haven't played anything but ALB since the open beta ended. Without basing my opinions on the like 5 games I played back then, should I still buy this one or just keep playing ALB and wait it out for the next incarnation, whatever it is? There is no next version. Red Dragon is the last Wargame for a while. On the Naval stuff, I think I've heard the Kongo is bugged and won't properly PD, so avoid that for now?
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May 21, 2014 22:44
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Shipguns are pretty accurate, and with radar control and fragmentation rounds they can actually shoot at missiles. Fair enough. I hadn't thought of frag rounds but the game already sort of simulates ammo switching on tanks for AP vs HE I don't have an issue with that. I guess my issue is mostly with the turret traverse rate because watching it follow and get multiple shots off at a jet flying perpendicular to the ship always feels silly. e: this is probably largely due to the game's somewhat compressed ranges. Lee Outrageous posted:Also, never ever for any reason use supply to repair boats, it takes a stupid amount of supply which would be better spent on missiles to make other boats dead. Really? It always seemed like it took way more time than supply to repair boats, to the point that it seemed to take around two harpoons' worth to repair a near-dead OHP. Maybe I just didn't watch hard enough, I am pretty bad at actually playing the game  .Also if you have SEAD in your deck it can target the larger ships, which can be useful in case you get lucky and a SEAD strike causes one of the debuffs that shut off the weapons right before you unleash t he anti-ship missiles since SEAD missiles aren't valid targets for [DEF] weapons as far as I can tell.
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May 21, 2014 22:59
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RE: "ATACMS" Malka proposal Yesterday I tried it out (and a bunch of other changes). You know the little glowy ring around tanks (and other stuff) when you select them? Yeah corrected, the ring around a T64BV was the same size as the shot dispersion. Also each hit took 2-3 HP from it. With two of them firing on it (and still with 4 shots/salvo), it died quickly.
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May 21, 2014 23:26
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power crystals posted:Fair enough. I hadn't thought of frag rounds but the game already sort of simulates ammo switching on tanks for AP vs HE I don't have an issue with that. I guess my issue is mostly with the turret traverse rate because watching it follow and get multiple shots off at a jet flying perpendicular to the ship always feels silly. e: this is probably largely due to the game's somewhat compressed ranges. Last I checked it did, maybe they adjusted it? Unless they snuck it in without mentioning it you can drain a FOB to nothing repairing something like a La Fayette or OHP. Though honestly capital ships should really only be firing their missiles from behind the picket of other cheaper poo poo you have before they start getting into any serious fight. If you need to repair a capital ship you are probably at risk of losing regardless. quote:Also if you have SEAD in your deck it can target the larger ships, which can be useful in case you get lucky and a SEAD strike causes one of the debuffs that shut off the weapons right before you unleash t he anti-ship missiles since SEAD missiles aren't valid targets for [DEF] weapons as far as I can tell. They do! I think it's because CIWS only fires at radar guided missiles, but I could be wrong... That could also be why you can get ATGMs past the CIWS screen.
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May 21, 2014 23:33
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Lee Outrageous posted:Last I checked it did, maybe they adjusted it? Unless they snuck it in without mentioning it you can drain a FOB to nothing repairing something like a La Fayette or OHP. Though honestly capital ships should really only be firing their missiles from behind the picket of other cheaper poo poo you have before they start getting into any serious fight. If you need to repair a capital ship you are probably at risk of losing regardless. I've only even tried like, two times, while loving around in team games with friends. Repairing seemed relatively cheap (but took an eternity) but rearming would consume a shitload of supplies in about two seconds. I only bothered because I am bad and let a couple tanks shoot up my OHPs. Lee Outrageous posted:They do! I think it's because CIWS only fires at radar guided missiles, but I could be wrong... That could also be why you can get ATGMs past the CIWS screen. Is that the rule? I thought it was they could only lock onto [SHIP] missiles.
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May 21, 2014 23:35
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Shanakin posted:RE: "ATACMS" Malka proposal At the same time, I guess they'd be supremely useless for anything but eradicating singular stationary units. Give 'em a rather short aiming time and long reload between salvoes and mission accomplished. Now to try the "old heavy guns = breakthrough arty" thing. Similar avaiaibility, accurracy and only slightly lower burst RoF than old medium guns. Glacial aiming time, long bursts (unless there's no supply source and they run out of the 2-4 rounds they carry). Basically, medium barrage arty that gets more powerful in exchange for being even less responsive (to the point of being only really useful to shell a stationary doomfort) and utterly reliant on sound logistics; also way less efficient for providing smoke due to this, I guess. Would put a nice spin into the game in that you could now really break a concentrated doomfortress if you put enough effort in terms of point investment and logistics behind it, meaning that people would be forced to rely more on defense in depth rather than just stacking their frontline as much as possible. Magni fucked around with this message at 00:53 on May 22, 2014 |
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May 22, 2014 00:10
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I'm going to say that we shouldn't go the :eugen: path and make sweeping changes in multiple areas all at once. Lets get tanks absolutely sorted, then infantry, then artillery. Not to say we can't have parallel works especially with power crystals new tools, but let's stay focused. Small well considered steps are best here. Xerxes17 fucked around with this message at 01:44 on May 22, 2014 |
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May 22, 2014 01:40
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Yep, especially when tanks especially can be sorted out with price changes. Having a successful mod showing a good sound model for tank pricing and focusing entirely on that and the benefits it brings, is likely the most convincing means of forming an argument. There is plenty of time to make the best wargame possible. There is a limited period of time to make the best Wargame possible. My 2 cents of course, and it would be fantastic to be able to have good sound changes to other sections ready to go if we do succeed. Also hob and I were messing around with ideas about the centurion blob that is scandanavian and commonwealth low end stuff. I think there's some sound ideas about differentiating tanks in the mess, although some things like lower price and lower availability cards of the same stuff are more for the former than the latter. I've been working on an availability draft for the latter here with reasoning about the various cards: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QWuIIAzYe6oMLYTnxNHWC-2of2OnngfzRcq-k3CcJKY/edit#gid=2103212993 xthetenth fucked around with this message at 01:52 on May 22, 2014 |
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May 22, 2014 01:44
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| # ? Jun 2, 2024 06:59 |
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Speaking of small changes Now supports <ndfcreate> and <ndfdelete> at the same level as <ndfpatch>. Both require the "ndf" and "table" attributes; <ndfcreate> needs nothing else but <ndfdelete> can have a <matchconditions> with all the usual rules about those (if you don't supply one, it will delete every instance of that class). The "__order" matchcondition value also now supports the special values of "first" and "last" which you can use to find the stuff you just added since by default they will have no values by doing something like this (which is in the included testpatch.xml file): code:
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May 22, 2014 01:48
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