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This thread got really mean and stupid fast.
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May 23, 2014 03:04
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Marxalot posted:I'm just saying that the -expectation- that everyone needs to study the encounters for this simple game in order to play said game is silly to me. Expecting new players to already know everything is a toxic little trait that's bad for games. Also fun. Don't forget that this is supposed to be fun. I don't expect people to know "everything", but not having a baseline knowledge of, at minimum, what abilities X, Y, and Z does? I don't see how that is onerous in any way. And yes, fun. That's what I asked. How is walking in blind and inconveniencing X-1 other people fun? Marxalot posted:It's cool if you don't want every party to be a learning party. Literally everyone understands that sometimes you just want a couple quick x kills. But people throwing a fit because people in DF don't study for a videogame fight is just hilarious. I will agree with you, though. The fit-throwing is stupid. The worst I'll do is say something passive-aggressive like "/sigh" in party chat, and even that's rare.
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May 23, 2014 03:04
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going into a fight blind and "figuring things out for yourself" mostly means forcing your party members to explain things to your dumb rear end so you stop getting them all killed, which is actually a very noble and pure way to experience the encounters in this Epic game...if you're a loving idiot 
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May 23, 2014 03:07
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Feenix posted:While I will admit it would be MORE CONSIDERATE if I watched videos and read up on poo poo and all that before I rolled into DF, I will also say I find exactly zero things wrong with experiencing content blind. I understand this concept, I do. But when you are playing a game with other people it is just important to be considerate of the fact that they're also paying the monthly fees and everyone, you and them both, should understand that everyone is paying money for the time you spend fighting and should try to make that time as smooth as possible, at least when you are playing together. If you are not playing a game alone, by yourself, then surely you can accept the concept that you should make allowances, even small ones, for other people? Would you not want them to do the same for you? No, the game doesn't tell you to prepare via outside sources before doing difficult content. I doubt any game has ever done that, but people were recording information and advice back in the NES era and people were sharing it and using it then and nothing has changed in gaming since. In MMOs, people start with the premise that they should make group play as easy as possible, and so information is collected and distributed as wide as people can get it for that purpose. Videos have never spoiled the initial experience for me anywhere in this game. Watching something remotely doesn't compare to actually getting in there and experiencing it yourself. External information just gets you to the meat of that experience with less time spent flailing around.
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May 23, 2014 03:08
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I wonder if it was short sighted of square to make the highest end content only available for 8 people at a time. It really limits what you can do with an encounter and limits how much you can make a fight "a guild wide thing". There's something nice about having a big group all working towards something rather than 4-5 groups of 8. CT seems like it's on the right track with the alliances stuff, but coil still being 8 is a big bummer for me.
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May 23, 2014 03:09
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Meiteron posted:I understand this concept, I do. But when you are playing a game with other people it is just important to be considerate of the fact that they're also paying the monthly fees and everyone, you and them both, should understand that everyone is paying money for the time you spend fighting and should try to make that time as smooth as possible, at least when you are playing together. If you are not playing a game alone, by yourself, then surely you can accept the concept that you should make allowances, even small ones, for other people? Would you not want them to do the same for you? this is actually a Smart and Cool post that i agree with fully but im just going to continue shitposting becuase why the gently caress not am i right guys??  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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May 23, 2014 03:11
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Klewer posted:this is actually a Smart and Cool post that i agree with fully but im just going to continue shitposting becuase why the gently caress not am i right guys?? What?
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May 23, 2014 03:12
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fount of knowledge posted:For what it's worth, nobody cares if you go into dungeons blind, that's half the fun. What gets people annoyed is when it comes to late-game raids where you will 100% absolutely not be able to clear it without preparing for it beforehand, either through repeated runs to familiarize yourself with the mechanics or through watching a video where you can see those mechanics play out. Titan Extreme and Twintania come to mind there. I have never watched a single video and have cleared everything except second coil. However, I either group with friends who explain the fights, or join "learning" groups in PF and find out what to do that way. Doing Twin specifically, people who said they watched the video would consistently do worse than those of us who were completely new. Levi EX was the opposite.
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May 23, 2014 03:12
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If it wasn't for the boards looking different, I would absolutely swear I accidentally walked into a topic straight from general discussion on the official ffxiv forums. It's both sides, you're both being dumb.
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May 23, 2014 03:12
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Kyrosiris posted:Well no, but if I gently caress up in a single player game I'm not wasting 3/7/9/24/39 other people's time. You're playing a WoW clone MMO. You're already wasting your time, you just don't want to feel like you're wasting it. I had the same opinion as you back when I did hardcore raiding in WoW during WotLK and Cata. Looking back it was a dumb opinion to have, and what made it worse is that the developers designed the encounters in such a way that you couldn't intuitively learn them without spending entire evenings dieing over and over. It's loving lovely game design, your players shouldn't have to read a strategy guide before playing the game.
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May 23, 2014 03:13
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Rexicon1 posted:I wonder if it was short sighted of square to make the highest end content only available for 8 people at a time. It really limits what you can do with an encounter and limits how much you can make a fight "a guild wide thing". There's something nice about having a big group all working towards something rather than 4-5 groups of 8. CT seems like it's on the right track with the alliances stuff, but coil still being 8 is a big bummer for me. I suspect this just comes down to them getting their legs in terms of designing content. I mean, they couldn't even support premade 24-man raids on CT's release. I suspect they are moving slowly to ensure they have the design process down; I mean hell, even CT's design boils down to designing mechanics for 3 separate groups of 8 people to deal with as opposed to something more distributed. There are some structural issues, too. More people in a raid exponentially increases the complexity of the fight and the difficulty in coordination. See all the insanity that CT produces and if you think about it the mechanics for those fights are pretty drat simple when you break them down. Coil actually can be pretty inventive with it's mechanics because of the smaller player count. I fully expect there to be proper endgame 24 mans at some point, even if the next CT won't be like that; after all, the game is still pretty drat young as far as MMOs go. Of course, adding a 24 man raid with Coil's level of challenge and mechanical sophistication would probably, in time, lead to conversations which would make the last couple days in this thread look like idle chatter at teatime.
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May 23, 2014 03:17
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Volunteered to help someone clear Titan EX expecting PF tears. Instead they one shotted it no echo? 6 achievements for first time clear flew up the chat log. What bizarro world am I stuck in and can I get more of it
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May 23, 2014 03:19
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Meiteron posted:I have never been a fan of the concept of providing an echo buff so large that it trivializes mechanics, or of changes to fights that neuter the mechanics directly. The fight is the point, the challenge is the content. If you are not here for that what are you here for? To get a victory you couldn't claim legitimately and do nothing with it, because the immediate next challenge is even harder and hasn't been nerfed yet? The gear has been matched or trumped by easier methods. The only argument which holds water, and it's not much, is that you want to know about whatever story content is behind coil but like any game, that is part of the reward for your efforts and it should require that effort. I have little sympathy for people who just want to get that without trying. That is what Youtube is for. Meiteron posted:Videos have never spoiled the initial experience for me anywhere in this game. Watching something remotely doesn't compare to actually getting in there and experiencing it yourself. External information just gets you to the meat of that experience with less time spent flailing around. I don't think you're a bad poster or anything, but man... I haven't seen this many flip flops since the last presidential election.
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May 23, 2014 03:32
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Kyrosiris posted:I don't expect people to know "everything", but not having a baseline knowledge of, at minimum, what abilities X, Y, and Z does? I don't see how that is onerous in any way. It's not that looking something up is hard; it's just that I don't think that studying a fight is a reasonable expectation to have with the vast majority of MMOs. Especially one as simple and easy to figure out on your own as FFXIV. I've watched fights before, and honestly it's just boring (at least for me). Don't get me wrong it would be great if everyone already knew exactly what to do/expect. But honestly I'm just happy when people listen and know how to play their class. Especially in Party Finder. Also, it's not like they have some duty to be good at videogames for me. Marxalot fucked around with this message at 03:43 on May 23, 2014 |
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May 23, 2014 03:38
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Experiencing content for the first time, blindly, with a group of 7 other friends can be a very satisfying and memorable experience. Experiencing content for the first time, blindly, with 7 strangers who already know the content is just selfish on your part and no fun for anyone involved. You don't want the fight spoiled for you, but what happens in the latter example is you will now have a bunch of different people giving you paraphrased explanations of the mechanics just for a chance to drag your corpse through the fight, because you're holding their playing time hostage.
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May 23, 2014 03:41
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seorin posted:I don't think you're a bad poster or anything, but man... I haven't seen this many flip flops since the last presidential election. Context is important, though. In the first post I'm talking about a specific case: people who are playing the game for the story, but can't/won't progress through the required fights to view it through the game itself. That is where I suggest Youtube, as an alternative to making drastic alterations to the fights. I imagine my position on that last thing is pretty clear by now. In the second post I'm not talking about story, nor am I talking about people who can't get through the story via legitimate means. I am talking about gameplay, about the experience of actually going in and attempting a difficult fight. On top of that, it's no longer from the perspective of a single person but how one person's actions affect the other players they're working with. I am trying, and perhaps failing, to get across different concepts in each point. Maybe I'm not doing that good a job, but they still seem different when I read them now.
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May 23, 2014 03:45
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Seems to me like you answered your own question as to why someone would attempt a fight if not for the challenge. It's the difference between seeing something live and watching it on pay-per-view, except the pay-per-view version has somebody else's lovely music and/or some droning nerd's voice constantly throughout the whole thing, or even better when you can hear their entire voice chat server so you're treated to the soothing melodies of eight people shouting at each other. ...I think that metaphor got away from me.
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May 23, 2014 03:56
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Shere posted:Experiencing content for the first time, blindly, with a group of 7 other friends can be a very satisfying and memorable experience. This has been one of my favourite things in this game, Turn 7 in particular was amazing to experience going in blind.
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May 23, 2014 04:36
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Sendo posted:This has been one of my favourite things in this game, Turn 7 in particular was amazing to experience going in blind.
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May 23, 2014 04:40
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fount of knowledge posted:For what it's worth, nobody cares if you go into dungeons blind, that's half the fun. What gets people annoyed is when it comes to late-game raids where you will 100% absolutely not be able to clear it without preparing for it beforehand, either through repeated runs to familiarize yourself with the mechanics or through watching a video where you can see those mechanics play out. Titan Extreme and Twintania come to mind there. Even though I always do watch a video before I try any endgame stuff, there are two kind of arguments I can think of right away for not watching a video / reading a guide, and there's probably a few others: 1. You won't win on your first time anyway, whether you watched a video or not, unless you either get carried or are just the luckiest mother fucker ever. With this mindset, since you'll probably have to grind the boss multiple times anyway, why waste 10 minutes or whatever watching a video when it won't even really help. 2. This one applies to me, I watched 3 videos on Twintania. When I first made it to each phase, I still had to learn the battle by experiencing it anyway, and by the time I first made it to Twisters I had been grinding the other 3 phases so much that I pretty much didn't really even remember what to do (that and Twisters are honestly kind of confusing the first time you actually experience them, even if they are actually pretty drat easy, at least I figure they are pretty easy since I beat Twintania on my 2nd time ever reaching twisters). Basically the point here would be that if watching a video doesn't help nearly as much as experience, and with the amount of experience actually playing the battle that's generally required to actually win, what does watching a video even help accomplish?
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May 23, 2014 06:37
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Zo posted:It's pretty funny. Their dumb autism brains have warped to the point where they demand every person in a random queuing system to follow their exact standards for playing video games. Marxalot posted:I like how every time someone comes into this thread and says something like this a bunch of people instantly out themselves as Nice to know there are people in this thread who are legit hosed in the head.
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May 23, 2014 07:51
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KaneTW posted:Nice to know there are people in this thread who are legit hosed in the head. Aren't you the self admitted pedophile? Not sure how much your insults hurt, really v  v
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May 23, 2014 07:55
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Methinks someone doth protest too much. Esthi-sempai, someone is so tsun-tsun for you. Notice them, and end their pain.
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May 23, 2014 07:57
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Despite feeling horrible about it, I was just That Guy toward some new player. I decided to queue up for Thornmarch (Hard) 30 minutes before maint, since I figured it'd be a quick 5-10 minute affair. But, one of the tanks (a warrior) had less HP than my Scholar outside of Defiance, and he had taken it upon himself to replace pieces of his AF armor set with monk gear. He proceeds to run in without Defiance and randomly turn it on/off for the duration of the first phase.. at which point he gets 100->0%'d by the King and an add in the span of 4 seconds. This turns out to be a fluke, because he didn't manage to pick up the boss OR an add again for the rest of our time in there. In between each attempt, we try talking to him and, later, strategizing around him, but all three times he runs in (without Defiance!) while we're trying to talk to him. At 30% Echo, we finally decide to just try and have the other Warrior tank all 3 mobs, which did work but she took a couple of huge hits just from having them stacked. So naturally, the Warrior axe - the only reason our other tank was there - drops, and the incredibly incompetent Warrior wins it. Who then says "im sorry" in say chat, after fifteen minutes of trying to communicate with him. Now I feel like a jerk for being angry at him, even though he failed every basic check imaginable 
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May 23, 2014 08:14
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^ I've always just assumed people who do that are PS3 players with chat turned off. <se.1> and some group /pointing worked for me once or twice.goldjas posted:videos don't help and suck seorin posted:A cacophony of nerd voices and loud distorted Linkin Park songs playing in the background of a video of a twin fight. Some well put together video guides (or links to YT channels/playlists of people who make them) would be a nice thing to have in the OP. KaneTW posted:Nice to know there are people in this thread who are legit hosed in the head. "If you find it funny that people seriously expect people to study fights in an MMO then you are legit hosed in the head" - This guy, 2014. e: Zo is still bad Marxalot fucked around with this message at 08:47 on May 23, 2014 |
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May 23, 2014 08:17
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Rexicon1 posted:I wonder if it was short sighted of square to make the highest end content only available for 8 people at a time. It really limits what you can do with an encounter and limits how much you can make a fight "a guild wide thing". There's something nice about having a big group all working towards something rather than 4-5 groups of 8. CT seems like it's on the right track with the alliances stuff, but coil still being 8 is a big bummer for me. Oh god, no. This is, like, the only good WoW-style MMO that is not poisoned with hardcore large-scale raids.
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May 23, 2014 08:33
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Marxalot posted:
It's more the wanton autism insults, really. It's fine to go into a game blind, just make sure the other 7 know what's going on or can carry you without any issue. Zo posted:Aren't you the self admitted pedophile? Not sure how much your insults hurt, really v I'm not and I don't even know when exactly that one FC quote turned into an admission of pedophilia but I can assure you I'm not. Why the gently caress am I even talking about this, gently caress this thread.
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May 23, 2014 08:50
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so what IS the difference between loli and child porn?
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May 23, 2014 08:55
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Watching a video helps to understand a fights mechanics and it's phases, but until you actually experience the fight and the mechanics first hand, you're gonna have trouble. You can explain twisters to someone till the cows come home, but they'll still usually get killed by a twister when they finally experience it. No video will compare to actually experiencing the fight, but the video will certainly help prepare them. It is common courtesy to watch a video before you even attempt any of the endgame lvl 50 content, especially if a fight is intensive for your job, otherwise you're just wasting peoples time that could be better spent not with you. Even most learning groups request that you watch a video before even joining.
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May 23, 2014 08:56
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Killsion posted:Watching a video helps to understand a fights mechanics and it's phases, but until you actually experience the fight and the mechanics first hand, you're gonna have trouble. You can explain twisters to someone till the cows come home, but they'll still usually get killed by a twister when they finally experience it. No video will compare to actually experiencing the fight, but the video will certainly help prepare them. I'm the kind of guy who only really learns anything by doing it and I don't get so much out of video guides. It still helps to know about the insta-kill mechanics. If you don't know anything about a particular boss you should probably tell the others so that they can explain things to you. Of course then there are the people who immediately leave at that point or start calling you bad. They are assholes. Note that my experience about this mostly comes from other games since I only just started playing this one. Having said that could you guys give me some advice about tanking as a gladiator? I just started playing the game a few days ago and I did the Sastasha dungeon yesterday. It honestly could have gone better. The group was pretty friendly though and we cleared the place in the end. The problem I had was holding aggro. This was a lot different than some other games and I really wasn't prepared for it being so difficult. After I realised I should always mark the order of mobs and still spam flash pretty much rotationally the results weren't great. I tried using this "rotation": Fast blade -> Savage blade -> Flash That made me run out of MP very fast. I tried replacing savage blade with Riot blade occasionally to get more MP but that would sometimes make me lose aggro even from the main target. A part of the problem was a thaumaturge who wouldn't always attack the marked target which made me spam flash, switch targets and resulted in more problems. The pulling wasn't always that easy either. I wasn't really sure how I should gain the attention of all mobs. I usually ran in and used flash a couple of times and then started pounding on the main target. Afterwards I googled some stuff and noticed that I hadn't done a certain gladiator mission and I was missing the skill Shield lob. I suppose I should use that skill on the pull? Any other tips for pulling multiple mobs? We didn't actually wipe until the last boss but I felt like I could have done better. At the last boss the healer kept drawing all the adds to him but we agreed that the healer would stay close to me (or me close to him) at all times so I could flash the adds more easily. We killed the boss after two wipes but even on the succesful attempt the other dps (conjurer maybe?) kept drawing boss aggro away from me. I felt like I had to use Riot blade to gain more mana to flash the adds. Any tips you could give me would be much appreciated.
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May 23, 2014 09:20
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Alasuojus posted:Having said that could you guys give me some advice about tanking as a gladiator? I just started playing the game a few days ago and I did the Sastasha dungeon yesterday. It honestly could have gone better. The group was pretty friendly though and we cleared the place in the end. The problem I had was holding aggro. This was a lot different than some other games and I really wasn't prepared for it being so difficult. After I realised I should always mark the order of mobs and still spam flash pretty much rotationally the results weren't great. I tried using this "rotation": First of all tanking as a GLA is awful until you get Rage of Halone at 26. Until then though... Let's say there are 3 enemies in the pull, A,B, and C. Typically you will want the worst enemy in the group dead first. Marking helps, but it should also be understood that the first target you hit, is the one you want people to kill. So you want to shield lob at A, then once the group is on you, you flash once or twice, and proceed to use your rather weak fast blade into savage blade combo. Now let's say your DPS is smart and understands concepts like focus firing, obviously you're gonna have to pay far more attention on target A, but targets B and C will still be generating healer threat, so don't neglect to toss a combo at those as well, along with an additional flash. Once A is near dead, switch off and start focusing on the next target you want dead, say B, to get additional threat on it and hopefully the DPS catch the hint, or you can mark it for death. The problem here is fast blade -> savage blade is not a significant amount of threat, and there is little you can do this early into the game about it. Tanking just does not get very manageable until 26 for you. Once you get Rage of Halone, you won't have aggro issues and you'll do the same things just as before. Making sure you hit targets B and C along with A with Rage of Halones is how you play a good GLA/PLD. Once you hit A with a Rage of Halone, it's usually fine to then hit A with fast blade, B with savage, and C with rage of halone, then go back to A with another combo, then swap it so you hit B with the Rage of Halone. Flashing typically isn't enough and spamming flash is a sign of a bad tank.
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May 23, 2014 09:36
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Alasuojus posted:Any tips you could give me would be much appreciated. The weird thing about this game is that you really don't need a tank in a group until like... Lvl 30 when you get your pally job. Carbuncles are common tanks in early dungeons for whatever reason. The two biggest things I'd tell you to work on in the early stages, is to learn to mark targets and spread your threat around. Marking targets makes it so that you KNOW which mob will likely get the most threat,and you can learn to predict. Healers will often be the main Aggro battle you fight as they produce the most hate. As far as initiations go, shield lob is important when you wanna peel a patrol or such off of a group, but you'll often initiate early battles by running in and flashing. That will give you a stable ground to work with, then it's all about managing threat with your combo. There is one more big important part of your threat combo you don't have yet, rage of halone. Again, the best thing to learn early on is to GUIDE YOUR PARTY. you will more often than not be the spearhead of the group and people will listen to you because they have to. Use marks (shift + M will bring up the menu) and communicate. It's the only way to manage it early on, and it's a good habit for later.
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May 23, 2014 09:37
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Rexicon1 posted:The weird thing about this game is that you really don't need a tank in a group until like... Lvl 30 when you get your pally job. Carbuncles are common tanks in early dungeons for whatever reason. The two biggest things I'd tell you to work on in the early stages, is to learn to mark targets and spread your threat around. Marking targets makes it so that you KNOW which mob will likely get the most threat,and you can learn to predict. Healers will often be the main Aggro battle you fight as they produce the most hate. As far as initiations go, shield lob is important when you wanna peel a patrol or such off of a group, but you'll often initiate early battles by running in and flashing. That will give you a stable ground to work with, then it's all about managing threat with your combo. There is one more big important part of your threat combo you don't have yet, rage of halone. Again, the best thing to learn early on is to GUIDE YOUR PARTY. you will more often than not be the spearhead of the group and people will listen to you because they have to. Use marks (shift + M will bring up the menu) and communicate. It's the only way to manage it early on, and it's a good habit for later. Never run into a group and flash, always shield lob as it will give you a good head start on the holding threat game.
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May 23, 2014 09:43
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Kly posted:so what IS the difference between loli and child porn? That one harms children and the other doesn't? I'm not advocating lolicon poo poo (I'm indifferent really) but putting both on the same level is ridiculous. I'm done now.
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May 23, 2014 09:49
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And on THAT bombshell All you nerds that are trying to excuse your willingness to look up a fight before attempting it for the first time as the people you play with's fault for not allowing you to be lazy need to get out
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May 23, 2014 09:55
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Killsion posted:Never run into a group and flash, always shield lob as it will give you a good head start on the holding threat game. I don't think it matters much early on, but you are right. Shield lob is the best opener.
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May 23, 2014 09:59
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KaneTW posted:That one harms children and the other doesn't? I'm not advocating lolicon poo poo (I'm indifferent really) but putting both on the same level is ridiculous. On an unrelated note, is there any way to get a massive listing of every quest I haven't picked up other than just teleporting to every region and checking the map for a ! symbol? Except for the EX primal quest, I've finished every (non-class/job) mission I've started, so I'd really like to see if I've missed anything to help with levelling other classes. I don't really fancy comparing side-by-side my Completed Quests Journal vs a wiki listing of every quest in the game and marking them off one at a time.
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May 23, 2014 10:02
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ilifinicus posted:And on THAT bombshell Nah bro, I'm here to experience T5 blind and waste 7 other people's time who are also paying for the game's time. You get out.
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May 23, 2014 10:05
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Thanks for the tanking tips. I was careful about using abilities on other targets than the marked one because holding threat even on that one seemed hard. Shield lob and experience will probably help. I take it that I shouldn't use Riot blade much and be more conservative about flash. It didn't seem to give back huge amounts of MP anyway. One other thing that bothered me was that the time between using abilities seemed so very long. It's annoying to use a skill and then see one mob start running towards the healer and not be able to do anything immediately.
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May 23, 2014 10:05
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Alasuojus posted:Afterwards I googled some stuff and noticed that I hadn't done a certain gladiator mission and I was missing the skill Shield lob. In case the googling didn't communicate this, you should always head back to your class trainer on levels that are multiples of 5 for a new quest. This is basically the only thing that takes priority over advancing the plot when you're levelling your first class. Once you complete your level 30 quest, you'll see another quest that requires you to be level 15 in a second class (conjurer in your case). This will be a pain in the rear end, but it's not really optional.
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May 23, 2014 10:06
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