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Jippa posted:I'm probably incredibly naive but I didn't think stuff like that happened in england (at least on that scale)? Have you been living in a cave for the last few years? Seriously? What about all the News Int stuff at the very least? Liam Fox? cash for questions? Mortgage flipping? Serotonin fucked around with this message at 12:06 on May 24, 2014 |
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May 24, 2014 12:03
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Have you been at the bottom of a well for the last 50 years? 
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May 24, 2014 12:06
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the reason Episode #14512 in the Tower Hamlets brouhaha is particularly interesting is because the relevant actors - including the Respect Party and Lutfur Rahman himself - are labeling themselves as being from the left and claiming intellectual descent from the old anti-Iraq-war alliance if you claim the banner of being the authentic left representation, then of course you deserve scrutiny from those who identify with the left
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May 24, 2014 12:14
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Well of course and he's obviously dodgy as gently caress but half that Telegraph list is pretty spurious 'by association' stuff. Our current Prime Minister is saddled with poo poo that makes those allegations look minor as gently caress if we want to play that game. This country is riddled with corruption, it's just that it's the 'right sort' of corruption. A lot of the TH stuff is dog whistle omg the Muslins are taking over poo poo.
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May 24, 2014 12:21
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It seems the problem for Labour this elections was that they did fantastically well in London, and a bit below par in most of the rest of the country. Because a lot of London reports so late, it looked for almost the entirety of the election broadcasts that Labour were going to do poorly, but have ultimately ended up not far from their optimistic target, at 338 gains. I wonder if their PNS was redone with all the London results in if they wouldn't have a bit larger lead over the Tories, and if UKIP might not go even further down. But then that might not be how PNS is done, I don't really know anything about it.
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May 24, 2014 12:28
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Serotonin posted:Well of course and he's obviously dodgy as gently caress but half that Telegraph list is pretty spurious 'by association' stuff. Yes, dead people voting for Rahman's cronies is pretty spurious by association stuff: quote:At a flat in Hobsons Place, Hanbury Street, a man named Abdul Manik is shown on the council’s official records as having cast a postal vote in the byelection. I called at the flat on Tuesday. Mr Manik’s daughter, Jona, told me that he was dead. He’d died in Bangladesh, where he’d lived for several years, the previous week. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100153760/tower-hamlets-electoral-fraud-heres-some-more-evidence/
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May 24, 2014 12:35
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Literally every party commits/receives the benefit from postal vote fraud, it's hard NOT to.
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May 24, 2014 12:40
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He said half of it, not all of it. Which is the point. He's a crook, and also being used to push an islamophobic agenda.
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May 24, 2014 12:40
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Well this moved on a lot since I posted. What do I think Britishness is? Well it's societal not ethnic. A certain inherited understanding (I don't want to say respect) of our institutions and systems of law and order. A common basis for our sense of humour and the way we interact. I realise "Britishness" is a completely nebulous thing, but i think I would consider those things part of it. With immigration as it was up to the 90s/00s those things evolved and changed and so did "Britishness" and that's normal, but recently in areas which have seen huge levels of immigration there is no chance for that to happen. People arriving from other cultures have no need to go a bit native as it were because they don't arrive and live amongst the older population. The new culture just replaces what had been there and evolving over hundreds of years. Between 1961 and 2001 the number of foreign born people living in the UK increased by 2,310,000. Between 2001 and 2011 it increased 2,900,000. More people arrived in the previous 10 years than did in the 40 years before that, most of them moving into specific areas. I'm sorry but that has an effect. Has all the British people moving into great enclaves in Spain been good for the Spanish people that lived there? Or has it allowed the British to be able to completely ignore the fact that they are in Spain as they hoover up egg and chips. You would presumably consider them as Spanish as Alejandro from Salamanca? Obviously it's impossible to speak about this without resorting to generalisations but I think that part and parcel of this discussion. I don't really care about the genetics of the situation, but it came up in the last couple of pages so http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/mythsofbritishancestry/#.U4CHBuE7bC0 quote:Everyone has heard of Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Vikings. And most of us are familiar with the idea that the English are descended from Anglo-Saxons, who invaded eastern England after the Romans left, while most of the people in the rest of the British Isles derive from indigenous Celtic ancestors with a sprinkling of Viking blood around the fringes.
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May 24, 2014 12:50
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Is anyone saying he isn't a dodgy character? I think the point was instead that saying 'gently caress! It's the musslemen!' is ridiculous, not that tower hamlets doesn't have a wierd political situation going on. When Cameron is a poo poo it's a rare commentator that says 'loving Christians' and when there's a pro-hunting demonstration or people talk about the countryside alliance no one says 'bunch of uppity loving white people' so why is it suddenly allowed to use dog whistle tactics when a non-white politician is also a poo poo?
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May 24, 2014 12:51
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namesake posted:Literally every party commits/receives the benefit from postal vote fraud, it's hard NOT to. Yeah this, it's rife through every party. Just go google it. There were Tories in TH doing it a few years back.
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May 24, 2014 12:58
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[quote="Illuminti" post="""] Obviously it's impossible to speak about this without resorting to generalisations but I think that part and parcel of this discussion. I don't really care about the genetics of the situation, but it came up in the last couple of pages so http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/mythsofbritishancestry/#.U4CHBuE7bC0 [/quote] You should care about the genetics of the situation as it's very interesting. The article you liked is a series of two now horrendously out of date articles that bear little relevance to the current hypothesis. When I'm not phone posting I will tell you why, and how, everything in that article is wrong.
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May 24, 2014 12:59
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because the dysfunction is dragging a swathe of the left with it despite what you may have heard recently, British Muslims are not actually a majority in any borough, not even in Tower Hamlets, which still has a white plurality. Newham doesn't but it has a large chunk of non-Muslim British Indians there is certainly scope for yelling "wait, he's not far left at all! Stop endorsing him! He's a corrupt Tory clone liquidating public assets at firesale prices to his business buddies!" ronya fucked around with this message at 13:12 on May 24, 2014 |
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May 24, 2014 13:05
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Illuminti posted:Between 1961 and 2001 the number of foreign born people living in the UK increased by 2,310,000. Between 2001 and 2011 it increased 2,900,000. More people arrived in the previous 10 years than did in the 40 years before that, most of them moving into specific areas. I'm sorry but that has an effect. But what effect? You take it as given that all of these people have no interest in integrating, that because they were born somewhere else they won't adopt the traits of the area they move to (which is silly when you realise than many of those moving here will be young children and so the Uk will be all they remember) and that because they do things differently that it'll somehow take over from 'Britishness'. People who are born here do things very differently from each other so the idea that variety within the Uk is fine but variety from across the border is an existential threat is pure nationalism with no substance or reason behind it. I mean to be a bit flippant Christianity sure as hell didn't come from here, even Protestantism didn't start here so it seems that foreign + time = Britishness. The royal family is only British because they marry our aristocracy so from that angle something is British because it happens in Britain, no matter where they come from. Neither of these justify the xenophobic attitudes that anti-immigration advocates have.
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May 24, 2014 13:10
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Illuminti posted:What do I think Britishness is? Well it's societal not ethnic. A certain inherited understanding (I don't want to say respect) of our institutions and systems of law and order. A common basis for our sense of humour and the way we interact. I realise "Britishness" is a completely nebulous thing, but i think I would consider those things part of it. A Scot's legal system, humour and culture is distinct from an Englishman's from the south of England, which is distinct from a Welshman'
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May 24, 2014 13:27
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Illuminti posted:Well this moved on a lot since I posted. Your statistic doesn't take into account that unlike all previous immigration waves, a huge proportion of EU immigrants stay and work here for a while, but then go home. This is the effect of a common market with freedom of movement, people moving country for a short time to work, not to make a new life like post-war immigrants did. Of course these immigrants don't integrate, but they also don't stay. I also don't agree that many people (of those who stay) don't integrate at all, or significantly less than previous immigrants. They do more than you know, and you can't know how much they have because you are not familiar with the culture of their previous country, or how much previous immigrants did. Every time we say 'this immigration wave is completely different to the previous ones, they won't integrate, they'll cause societal decay.' I also think we're ascribing many of the problems related to poverty to people's race. For many reasons, a large proportion of racial minorities are poor, we then instead attribute all the problems with civil unrest and crime that brings to their race or recent immigrant status. This has been a common tactic of the right, to blame systemic problems with capitalism on immigration. Alecto fucked around with this message at 13:33 on May 24, 2014 |
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May 24, 2014 13:28
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Lord Ashcroft did some interesting post-election polling: http://www.conservativehome.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/LORD-ASHCROFT-POLLS-Post-Euro-Election-Poll-Summary-May-2014.pdf For all the talk of UKIP taking votes off Labour, 51% of their support came from people who voted Tory in 2010; 18% previously voted Lib Dem, and only 15% previously voted Labour. Also, just over 50% of UKIP euro voters intend to support UKIP in 2015; 21% plan on returning to the Tory fold, 11% will vote Labour, and only 1% will return to the Lib Dems. So for all Farage's talk, it looks like the Labour general election vote is almost completely untouched by UKIP; they're going to brutalize the Lib Dems and bleed the Tories, but put only a minor dent into Labour.
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May 24, 2014 13:33
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LemonDrizzle posted:Lord Ashcroft did some interesting post-election polling: http://www.conservativehome.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/LORD-ASHCROFT-POLLS-Post-Euro-Election-Poll-Summary-May-2014.pdf This is pretty consistent with pretty much all post-2010 polling on UKIP. It shouldn't be so hard to bring back Labour voters either, just pointing out that Farage and co are establishment Thatcherites will bring back the Midlands and Northern working class, and the rest is negligible. But, I'd rather they deal with the systemic party issues of an overly middle-class establishment and an insistence on neoliberal economic policies.
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May 24, 2014 13:38
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Yeah I just saw that, overall it seems a pretty good election, the far right knocking each other about and Labour moving in (not that that's a particular victory). Labour is still completely failing to inspire confidence in people about them leading the country though, I reckon the Euro results will be interesting.
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May 24, 2014 13:41
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the 2011 'Purple Book' was still pretty hard pro-direct-election of mayors and devolving powers as a solution I wonder whether that'll change?
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May 24, 2014 13:53
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namesake posted:Literally every party commits/receives the benefit from postal vote fraud, it's hard NOT to. Usually starkly for Muslim candidates in those parties.
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May 24, 2014 14:07
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A Sloth posted:Usually starkly for Muslim candidates in those parties. prove it, fascist.
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May 24, 2014 14:09
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namesake posted:Literally every party commits/receives the benefit from postal vote fraud, it's hard NOT to. Indeed. I'm fairly sure that my Stalinist grandmother who died a week ago voted Conservative this election. Impossible to prove in this instance, but she's definitely marked as having voted, despite being way too far gone with dementia to make any decisions, so I suspect the care home made the decision for her. Which round here almost definitely means Conservative.
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May 24, 2014 14:16
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namesake posted:Yeah I just saw that, overall it seems a pretty good election, the far right knocking each other about and Labour moving in (not that that's a particular victory). Labour is still completely failing to inspire confidence in people about them leading the country though, I reckon the Euro results will be interesting. I think the main interest in the Euro results is that they're pretty much an opinion poll with a massive sample size, on the question "Which party do you like?" and not, crucially, "Which party will you vote for at the next election?". This is the big worry when the far-right does well - it's the sort of thing policy wonks care a lot about and will almost certainly shape the rhetoric of next year's election (if not the actual policies). ronya posted:the 2011 'Purple Book' was still pretty hard pro-direct-election of mayors and devolving powers as a solution The funny thing is, absent the corruption we've talked about, Lutfur Rahman is actually not doing a bad job in TH. "Soft" services like rubbish collection and street cleaning, adult education and care, and accessibility to services, which are the main things the Mayor has control over, have definitely improved. He managed to save Bancroft Library and - possibly uniquely in the UK - we've opened two new
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May 24, 2014 14:18
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A Sloth posted:Usually starkly for Muslim candidates in those parties. Haven't you got a Britain First march to go on or some thing? Go wave a flag somewhere.
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May 24, 2014 14:22
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FWIW, from the EC report:quote:While the data reported by the police shows that every UK police force has investigated cases of alleged or suspected electoral fraud in the last three years, it is clear that there are some areas where cases are more frequently reported and therefore investigated.
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May 24, 2014 14:25
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nothing to seehere posted:Euros have all been counted, but cannot be released until tommorrow I thought. Euros better hadn't have been counted, because I'm on my regional count team.
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May 24, 2014 14:25
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Good start to his position... http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/24/ukip-councillor-investigation-racist-homophobic-facebook-comments
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May 24, 2014 14:29
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Spangly A posted:prove it, fascist. Sudden massive increases of postal votes in Asian areas and most of the candidates in postal vote fraud investigations being Muslim since 2000. Its why the police have been milling about around a ton of heavily Asian areas during the election. e: ronya has some good info there. And read through this: http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/briefing-papers/SN03667/postal-voting-and-electoral-fraud-200109 A Sloth fucked around with this message at 14:42 on May 24, 2014 |
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May 24, 2014 14:34
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SybilVimes posted:Good start to his position... Wow that was even worse than it first sounded, a serious rant.
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May 24, 2014 14:35
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A Sloth posted:Sudden massive increases of postal votes in Asian areas and most of the candidates in postal vote fraud investigations being Muslim since 2000. Its why the police have been milling about around a ton of heavily Asian areas during the election. You might want to reread ronyas post then, which says there's plenty of accusations by campaigners but convictions indicate its a generalised problem in communities rather than across ethnic backgrounds.
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May 24, 2014 14:40
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goddamnedtwisto posted:The funny thing is, absent the corruption we've talked about, Lutfur Rahman is actually not doing a bad job in TH. "Soft" services like rubbish collection and street cleaning, adult education and care, and accessibility to services, which are the main things the Mayor has control over, have definitely improved. He managed to save Bancroft Library and - possibly uniquely in the UK - we've opened two new quote:Since the 1960s, some historians have reevaluated political machines, considering them corrupt but efficient. Machines were undemocratic but responsive. They were also able to contain the spending demands of special interests. In Mayors and Money, a comparison of municipal government in Chicago and New York, Ester R. Fuchs credited the Cook County Democratic Organization with giving Mayor Richard J. Daley the political power to deny labor union contracts that the city could not afford and to make the state government assume burdensome costs like welfare and courts. Describing New York [as it eventually later dismantled Tammany Hall], Fuchs wrote, "New York got reform, but it never got good government." eh. Well I don't doubt that centralism produces effective government, but yes, there needs to be more focus on oversight mechanisms. Of course, if the point is that it's effective because it disempowers obstructive councillors rather than empowering the nebulous local community - which, as Labour hoped, would be its own strata of affiliated civil-social NGOs - the question is why one is pursuing extensive devolution at all
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May 24, 2014 14:42
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namesake posted:You might want to reread ronyas post then, which says there's plenty of accusations by campaigners but convictions indicate its a generalised problem in communities rather than across ethnic backgrounds. A general problem that may disproportionately affect certain communities it says, to look a little more closely.
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May 24, 2014 14:44
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A Sloth posted:Sudden massive increases of postal votes in Asian areas and most of the candidates in postal vote fraud investigations being Muslim since 2000. Its why the police have been milling about around a ton of heavily Asian areas during the election. can you literally not loving read or something? Ronya's highlighted points and that article both maintain the position that scum like you complain about electoral fraud yet it's not happening. Once again; prove it, fascist.
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May 24, 2014 14:45
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Maybe you should read it properly. Handwringing about "its not all South Asians" then saying they are concerned about it being quite heavily in certain communities but they have not really looked into it yet.
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May 24, 2014 14:47
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A Sloth posted:Maybe you should read it properly. Handwringing about "its not all South Asians" then saying they are concerned about it being quite heavily in certain communities but they have not really looked into it yet. what's loving wrong with you, the concerns about South Asian communities are related to block voting, not electoral fraud. Those are seperate concerns that both address weaknesses in a democratic voting system, and I would not argue against there being a high risk of South Asian block voting by post, due to the way the communities work. Pressure on voters is a serious problem. But loving laffo if you think this is a purely South Asian thing and not a concern they noticed while proving you and every other racist is full of poo poo during investigations.
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May 24, 2014 14:50
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Wow, the denial. I never said purely a South Asian problem, but those who heavily abuse the weaknesses tend to be so.
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May 24, 2014 14:51
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A Sloth posted:Wow, the denial. Go read it again dickhead. The denial is in the paper you linked, and also what Ronya quoted. There are concerns found in certain areas, some of which are predominately South Asian; none of it has anything to do with muslims mass postal frauding. Are you honestly such an idiot you think we wouldn't notice mass postal voting? it has never happened. Sloth, why are you such a sad and bitter person that you twist words right in front of you to support nothing but hate?
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May 24, 2014 14:53
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asian communities figured out how to vote for their interests 
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May 24, 2014 14:55
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There's no evidence for it but you see all these ethnic types are winning and a bunch of sore losers and racists say they must be committing fraud to do it so it must be true!
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May 24, 2014 14:57
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