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vyelkin posted:Hypothetically, what do the people in this thread think will happen if Hudak wins a slim minority and puts forward a budget that is the Million Jobs Plan in budget form? Would either other party be willing to support it? Recall of course that it would be a budget and therefore a confidence matter, so if they rejected it that would mean another election. If it's a slim minority, I would like to think the PCs would be smart enough to trim some of the fat off their Million Jobs plan to ensure it passes. They're unlikely to get support from the Liberals, but I can easily see the NDP propping them up in exchange for at least something like Andrea Horwath's pet auto insurance rates cause or something. Hudak may have to settle for only 750 thousand jobs. If they throw it all down exactly as-is and the opposition parties both refuse, I'm pretty sure we'll see another election before we see a coalition. A Lib-NDP coalition immediately after a PC minority win would have the shittiest optics for both parties, considering that's almost effectively what we've had since 2011 anyway. I wonder if Hudak would prorogue.
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May 24, 2014 19:08
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vyelkin posted:Hypothetically, what do the people in this thread think will happen if Hudak wins a slim minority and puts forward a budget that is the Million Jobs Plan in budget form? Would either other party be willing to support it? Recall of course that it would be a budget and therefore a confidence matter, so if they rejected it that would mean another election. After seeing the NDP platform I half think they'd support the PC over the liberals, at least under the current leadership - and if you don't like that you're not real NDP.
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May 24, 2014 19:13
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This is crazy talk, the NDP in a minority is never going to cross labour by putting Tim Hudak into power for a year when he'll have unrestricted power over labour disputes. The Party would be bankrupt forever.
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May 24, 2014 19:16
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DynamicSloth posted:This is crazy talk, the NDP in a minority is never going to cross labour by putting Tim Hudak into power for a year when he'll have unrestricted power over labour disputes. The Party would be bankrupt forever. Have you seen what Horwath is campaigning on? I think the ONDP left labour behind a while ago.
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May 24, 2014 19:18
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JohnnyCanuck posted:Have you seen what Horwath is campaigning on? I think the ONDP left labour behind a while ago. How has Horwath made any move that was remotely anti-labour, this isn't Federal politics the ONDP is a labour party in the sense that labour buys and pays for them to exist. Labour also gives to the Liberals of course but if any party has betrayed their labour allies it's the Ontario Liberals.
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May 24, 2014 19:21
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DynamicSloth posted:How has Horwath made any move that was remotely anti-labour, this isn't Federal politics the ONDP is a labour party in the sense that labour buys and pays for them to exist. Labour also gives to the Liberals of course but if any party has betrayed their labour allies it's the Ontario Liberals. iirc all the indications we've gotten are that labour wanted them to support the Wynne budget, so in a sense this entire election is the NDP turning their back on labour even if none of their specific policies are anywhere near as anti-union as the PCs.
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May 24, 2014 19:27
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Hudak has shut up about Right To Work lately after the trial balloon he sent out crashed and burned, but do you think he'd try and bring it back if he gets in?
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May 24, 2014 19:30
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Leofish posted:Hudak has shut up about Right To Work lately after the trial balloon he sent out crashed and burned, but do you think he'd try and bring it back if he gets in? Yes.
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May 24, 2014 19:37
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vyelkin posted:iirc all the indications we've gotten are that labour wanted them to support the Wynne budget, so in a sense this entire election is the NDP turning their back on labour even if none of their specific policies are anywhere near as anti-union as the PCs. It's true that labour generally is terrified of Hudak and has been the primary factor in getting Horwath to back the Liberals as long as she had, but they've hardly left the party, the party would be destitute if labour abandoned them. Most labour leaders remember that the Liberals tried to legislate away the right to collective bargaining only 2 years ago.
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May 24, 2014 19:40
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DynamicSloth posted:It's true that labour generally is terrified of Hudak and has been the primary factor in getting Horwath to back the Liberals as long as she had, but they've hardly left the party, the party would be destitute if labour abandoned them. Most labour leaders remember that the Liberals tried to legislate away the right to collective bargaining only 2 years ago. And by moving to the right of the liberals, buying ads to basically fake endorsements from right wing rags, and potentially putting Hudak into power by alienating their base and liberal swing voters the NDP is surely making labour feel safe. But we have to strike now! Gasplantgasplantgasplant! Who cares who wins as long as we get more seats!
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May 24, 2014 19:52
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Mmann posted:And by moving to the right of the liberals, buying ads to basically fake endorsements from right wing rags, and potentially putting Hudak into power by alienating their base and liberal swing voters the NDP is surely making labour feel safe. Mmann posted:Gasplantgasplantgasplant! Is the gas plant not a real horrifying example of corruption because you say it like this?
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May 24, 2014 20:03
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Weren't the other 2 parties planning on canceling the gas plants too or am I misremembering the last election?
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May 24, 2014 20:05
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brucio posted:Weren't the other 2 parties planning on canceling the gas plants too or am I misremembering the last election? Not actually sure (the PCs definitely were) of course the scandal is not because they cancelled the plants it's that they decided to build them in the first place, signing contracts with penalty provisions in the hundreds of millions and then cancelled the contracts at the height of an election campaign when they proved unpopular in important ridings and subsequently attempted to delete the records demonstrating that the decision was a purely political one.
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May 24, 2014 20:13
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brucio posted:Weren't the other 2 parties planning on canceling the gas plants too or am I misremembering the last election? They weren't in favour of the gas plants in the first place, let alone including onerous cancellation penalties, spending millions on construction and then cancelling them just to save a couple of key seats. Oh and efb.
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May 24, 2014 20:14
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vyelkin posted:iirc all the indications we've gotten are that labour wanted them to support the Wynne budget, so in a sense this entire election is the NDP turning their back on labour even if none of their specific policies are anywhere near as anti-union as the PCs. Labour isn't a monolith. The labour group which supported the budget most strongly was Unifor, a descendant of CAW, which has left the NDP behind in favour of "strategic voting" a decade ago.
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May 24, 2014 20:20
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DynamicSloth posted:Is the gas plant not a real horrifying example of corruption because you say it like this? It's an issue I don't give a gently caress about. Most people don't give a gently caress about it. Maybe this will surprise you but a lot of Canadians just expect their elected leaders to be corrupt because every single government on every level has had some level of corruption for as long as we've been alive. You know what I care about? Actual numbers beyond 'close tax loopholes' BS, actual job plans that aren't about cutting taxes and fellating job creators for the millionth time and praying that THIS is the time it will work. The last four elections I voted NDP because I liked their platform. This time I'll probably stick with the liberals, because I need a job and don't give a poo poo about gas plants. Mmann fucked around with this message at 20:22 on May 24, 2014 |
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May 24, 2014 20:20
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Mmann posted:It's an issue I don't give a gently caress about. Most people don't give a gently caress about it. I care about record a poo poo-tonne more than I care about rhetoric and the Liberal record beyond a budget they never expected was going to be enacted is solidly centre-right. Now I don't like everything about how Horwath is campaigning or has acted in opposition (although my chief complaint on the latter is that she propped up the Liberals for so long), but i've got no illusions about which parties are going to give away billions in corporate giveaways (above and below the table) and who respects collective bargaining.
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May 24, 2014 20:28
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DynamicSloth posted:That's a terrifyingly cynical view a party blew away something in the neighbourhood of a billion dollars most of which ended up as a corporate give away but you can't be bothered to give a poo poo because "oh everyone does that" If the budget had passed, they can't just go "lol whoops jk" and not implement it. It becomes law. And are you seriously saying that even though the NDP has shifted to the right you expect them to pull off their mask and reveal they only did that for votes and here is their true left agenda? Because that has happened never.
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May 24, 2014 20:38
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:If the budget had passed, they can't just go "lol whoops jk" and not implement it. It becomes law. And are you seriously saying that even though the NDP has shifted to the right you expect them to pull off their mask and reveal they only did that for votes and here is their true left agenda? Because that has happened never. I expect if the Liberals get a majority the first budget they pass will look very different from this one.
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May 24, 2014 20:47
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DynamicSloth posted:I expect if the Liberals get a majority the first budget they pass will look very different from this one. Then its a good thing the NDP shot down their left leaning budget to call this election.
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May 24, 2014 20:54
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Then its a good thing the NDP shot down their left leaning budget to call this election. Functionally I don't think they had a choice, but then I really think they should have gone last year so they wouldn't be in this position. In an ideal world they should have demanded an option to introduce a non-confidence motion at their discretion throughout the year but it is pretty perilous to go into a campaign on a process issue if it didn't work.
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May 24, 2014 21:07
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I've heard that the ONDP was over 2.5 million dollars in debt from the 2011 election at budget time last year. I don't know about their finances are like now, but they were definitely in no financial position to be in an election last year.
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May 24, 2014 21:37
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geese posted:I've heard that the ONDP was over 2.5 million dollars in debt from the 2011 election at budget time last year. I don't know about their finances are like now, but they were definitely in no financial position to be in an election last year. Yeah I know that's why they didn't pull the trigger last time (that and we were at peak-Hudak being a horses' rear end) but I doubt whatever you've raised in the last year was worth a year of distance from the Liberals' attempt to back stab labour and the gas plant scandal.
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May 24, 2014 21:54
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The Liberals have once again taken out ads on some prominent American politics blogs. I just saw one saying that Tim Hudak's proposed cuts are worse than Mike Harris's. The ad concludes with this: So it looks like the Liberals are going all in on their strategy to associate Hudak with a guy who hasn't been in power for something like five election cycles. I guess their internal pollsters are telling them people really don't like the memory of Mike Harris. His name came up more times in this ad than Hudak's did. brucio posted:Weren't the other 2 parties planning on canceling the gas plants too or am I misremembering the last election? In fairness to the ONDP they were against building the gas plants in the first place. The Liberals are the ones who railroaded them through and then cancelled them in a panic when it became clear that those seats were at jeopardy. Its true that the ONDP wanted to cancel the plants but under a theoretical ONDP administration the plants never would have been started in the first place.
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May 24, 2014 22:34
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Helsing posted:The Liberals have once again taken out ads on some prominent American politics blogs. I just saw one saying that Tim Hudak's proposed cuts are worse than Mike Harris's. The ad concludes with this: If she hadn't already dismissed the NDP as irrelevant, I bet Wynne would be running ads about Bob Rae too. Wow. I used to think it was a stereotype to say the OLP was obsessed with Mike Harris, but way to prove it right.
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May 24, 2014 22:49
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Leofish posted:If she hadn't already dismissed the NDP as irrelevant, I bet Wynne would be running ads about Bob Rae too. Wow. I used to think it was a stereotype to say the OLP was obsessed with Mike Harris, but way to prove it right. The OLP is obsessed with emphasizing Hudak's (and his wife's) strong ties to someone who hosed over the province with similar policies? What a bizarre strategy!
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May 24, 2014 22:55
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She has run ads about Bob Rae. You know that awful looking ad where she walks straight at the camera in some suburban neighbourhood while staring a little bit too high up? There's a version of it where she tells us that the last time the NDP were in power a sixth of the province was on "welfare".
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May 24, 2014 22:55
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Mmann posted:And by moving to the right of the liberals, buying ads to basically fake endorsements from right wing rags, and potentially putting Hudak into power by alienating their base and liberal swing voters the NDP is surely making labour feel safe. The NDP isn't very good at realpolitik. (See also: seeing it as a "win" to hand Harper a majority that most Canadians voted against.)
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May 25, 2014 03:31
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tagesschau posted:The NDP isn't very good at realpolitik. (See also: seeing it as a "win" to hand Harper a majority that most Canadians voted against.)
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May 25, 2014 03:38
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A little known fact is that NDP infiltrators installed the ineffectual Michael Ignatieff knowing it would lead to the Liberal Party's downfall 
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May 25, 2014 04:04
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DynamicSloth posted:Your version of the Dolchstosslegende is hilarious. Protip: learn what that actually is before making this sort of comment.
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May 25, 2014 06:21
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To be fair, there are still large numbers of Ontarians who will never consider voting for the NDP because of Bob Rae's tenure. My dad, for instance, who despises the Conservative Party, once tearfully told me that if his riding was a choice between the NDP and the Conservatives he would vote for the Conservatives despite hating their guts, because he doesn't want the NDP to ruin the province. There are also a lot of people who will never vote for the PCs because of Mike Harris. My mom, for instance, still believes that old smear about Harris's sealed teaching file or whatever. Basically, Helsing, remember that you're not the target for those ads. As for them appearing on American political blogs, I expect that's just Google Ads (or some other ad company) doing its job and not them specifically targeting US blogs. (And, of course, all this being said, there are people who will never vote for the Liberals because of McGuinty, so this is hardly a scenario unique to the PCs and ONDP)
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May 25, 2014 07:46
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Horwath responded yesterday to the letter written by disgruntled NDP supporters. 1) You know it's going to be great when an article starts out with an implicit assumption that being more business-friendly means being more electable. 2) Try to find a single reference to the issues. The Canadian Press article paints the criticism as being about triggering an election, which is fair but plain journalistic malpractice if the issues at stake in the budget are missing, and about the act of buying an ad in the Sun, which is plain journalistic malpractice -- it's about what's written in the ad, not the ad itself (and the fact that it's pretty drat misleading with the near-invisible "paid advertisement" disclosure). 3) Horwath simply states that it's great that the party is so democratic as she handwaves away the will of prominent NDP members and supporters. Politics is just loving rich, isn't it?
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May 25, 2014 14:54
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Helsing posted:So it looks like the Liberals are going all in on their strategy to associate Hudak with a guy who hasn't been in power for something like five election cycles. I guess their internal pollsters are telling them people really don't like the memory of Mike Harris. His name came up more times in this ad than Hudak's did. Hilariously enough, that didn't stop this guy from getting elected in my riding. Mainly due to vote splitting on the left
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May 25, 2014 15:23
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I think the NDP have pretty much given up trying to win. I got a call in the middle of the day asking for support and when I responded that thanks to Horwath's pandering to the right I was decidedly less interested in going NDP provincially they didn't even try and engage at all, just said 'thanks for your time.' If the people trying to drum up support for your party aren't even that excited by it that's not a good sign.
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May 25, 2014 21:40
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If I weren't on the phone I'd link but we have  electoral reform. Sorta.Wynne's platform says that she would allow municipalities to use ranked ballots in their elections instead of fptp. Baby steps.
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May 25, 2014 21:48
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Well, ranked ballots are such a cynical bullshit move for the liberals. But at least they should help the Greens. PR or bust.
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May 25, 2014 21:54
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I'm personally hoping for triumveratism. It worked for the Romans, and we can have each member of the triumverate be the leader of each major party 
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May 25, 2014 22:07
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Jimbozig posted:Well, ranked ballots are such a cynical bullshit move for the liberals. But at least they should help the Greens. To be fair, last time PR was floated in Ontario, it was overwhelmingly rejected EDIT: Which is why I am saying baby steps like this may be more effective. bunnyofdoom fucked around with this message at 22:23 on May 25, 2014 |
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May 25, 2014 22:12
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Solis posted:I think the NDP have pretty much given up trying to win. I got a call in the middle of the day asking for support and when I responded that thanks to Horwath's pandering to the right I was decidedly less interested in going NDP provincially they didn't even try and engage at all, just said 'thanks for your time.' If the people trying to drum up support for your party aren't even that excited by it that's not a good sign. That's always been SOP for phone canvassers. They're told very explicitly that their job is to find votes, not to try to convince anyone or argue with them. If someone tells you they're not voting for your team, you end the call politely. Depending on the resources of the campaign, you might get a callback later on from a more trusted/experienced canvasser whose job it will be to convince you to vote ONDP. Nothing about your interaction is out of the ordinary!
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May 25, 2014 22:19
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