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| embiid |
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41 | 32.28% |
| wiggins |
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86 | 67.72% |
| Total: | 127 votes | ||
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Rick posted:I think you should go look at what people who are over 6'9" make and then look at what they can make if they can average more than two field goals a game. I think my definition of overpaid does not have to match yours.
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May 27, 2014 01:10
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IcePhoenix posted:I think my definition of overpaid does not have to match yours. What's your definition? He makes what is appropriate for a player of his height and ability to make.
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May 27, 2014 01:12
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Rick posted:What's your definition? He makes what is appropriate for a player of his height and ability to make. Being able to play 70 games a season would be a good start.
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May 27, 2014 01:15
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The Asian Oprah posted:Was hoping they had a Wiggins video, he's been NBA-smooth since 17 and I want to see how much he's improved. They got this: in addition to the stuff in MV's post, Austin is literally half-blind. I don't know how much that impacts his game but it can't help to have half the peripheral vision of every other player
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May 27, 2014 01:18
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Though he is (literally) half blind, he has a pretty good looking jumpshot for a 7-footer.
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May 27, 2014 02:20
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vegaji posted:Though he is (literally) half blind, he has a pretty good looking jumpshot for a 7-footer. The problem is he does nothing that 7-footers are supposed to do.
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May 27, 2014 02:23
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Kibner posted:The problem is he does nothing that 7-footers are supposed to do.
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May 27, 2014 02:53
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He doesn't actually shoot jumpers well though. He shot under 30% from three last year.
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May 27, 2014 03:10
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BIZORT posted:I'm not trying to get defensive at all over the videos but Embiid's shows him doing the Mikan drill, shooting a couple of very flat 15 footers, and basically just dunking beyond that. Parker's has a lot of dunking too but he shows a lot of quickness and shooting range, along with some good iso moves. I just don't really see what people are drooling over with that Embiid video. I'm not saying he's not any good or anything like that; I have almost nothing to go off of to make that claim. I just haven't seen the proof yet. He's quicker than most but he does look a bit mechanical, too I'm glad someone finally sort of agrees with me in this thread that the Embiid hype is somewhat overblown. A strong indicator of a big athletic unproven dude being a bust is people slobbering all over his combine tape. Any 7 footer who can physically alter his position in space makes it look like he's dunking on an 8' foot rim. Its kind of inherent with being seven loving feet tall. It doesn't mean he's Hakeem Olajuwon Jr.
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May 27, 2014 03:19
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The B_36 posted:I'm glad someone finally sort of agrees with me in this thread that the Embiid hype is somewhat overblown. A strong indicator of a big athletic unproven dude being a bust is people slobbering all over his combine tape. Any 7 footer who can physically alter his position in space makes it look like he's dunking on an 8' foot rim. Its kind of inherent with being seven loving feet tall. It doesn't mean he's Hakeem Olajuwon Jr. You did it B_36 you made everyone realize that Embiid is not Hakeem Olajuwon
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May 27, 2014 03:20
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The B_36 posted:I'm glad someone finally sort of agrees with me in this thread that the Embiid hype is somewhat overblown. A strong indicator of a big athletic unproven dude being a bust is people slobbering all over his combine tape. Any 7 footer who can physically alter his position in space makes it look like he's dunking on an 8' foot rim. Its kind of inherent with being seven loving feet tall. It doesn't mean he's Hakeem Olajuwon Jr. If only he had also looked really good and fluid in basketball games that we could have all watched.
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May 27, 2014 03:22
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Declan MacManus posted:You did it B_36 you made everyone realize that Embiid is not Hakeem Olajuwon Well, I hope so, because more than a few people here have said that if he avoids injury, he'll literally be as good as Hakeem Olajuwon. Look, I have a ton of respect for you and MV's scouting reports and views on college basketball. You guys do the dirty work of actually watching college basketball to attempt to find out who the next great NBA players will be, which is a lot more than I'm willing to do. But when was the last time a freakishly athletic big man with no real numbers or proven track record in college (Kevin Garnett/Dwight Howard being the exception bc they skipped college) came into the NBA and actually lived up to the hype? Andre Drummond doesn't do it for me - he's good, but he isn't setting the league on fire. In this draft class, the #1 pick better drat well be a future HoF'er or its a wasted pick right?
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May 27, 2014 03:36
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He put up good college numbers when you consider how many minutes he was playing, especially early. And they are particularly amazing when you consider that he's been playing basketball for like four years. If you actually watch him play you'll say that he's incredibly smooth and natural looking athletically in a way that a lot of the guys you're talking about weren't, in addition to having an incredibly high skill level for someone his age/experience level. He also improved dramatically as the season went on. Like your position seems to be "some other tall guys were busts, so this guy will be too" which is way dumber than the people freaking out about his highlight tape.
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May 27, 2014 03:39
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Lets all agree that embiid's range as a nba player is bust to hall of famer
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May 27, 2014 03:44
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MourningView posted:If only he had also looked really good and fluid in basketball games that we could have all watched. He's looked really good and fluid in basketball games in which he scored 10pts and snagged 6rebs against 6'8" future accountants. And, in an offense that apparently highlights post play and should make him look particularly good. Where the wing player who should absolutely no doubt be the #1 pick in the draft, who is being underutilized, and who everybody knows will be better suited to the pro game with his athleticism and skill set, still managed to put up better numbers, because he's not just a raw prospect whose only been playing the game for a couple years.
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May 27, 2014 03:49
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Yeah did you actually watch him? He got way better as the year went on and he got to play more. There were plenty of games where he was a lot better than Wiggins, who is not even close to a finished product and pretty raw in his own way. The biggest thing holding back Embiid's numbers was that foul trouble kept him from getting consistent minutes, which is a problem for most young big guys. And no not "everyone" knows Wiggins is a better prospect, which is why Embiid was widely being regarded as a potential number 1 pick before he got hurt and is being talked about one again now that he appears to be healthy.
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May 27, 2014 03:51
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The B_36 posted:Well, I hope so, because more than a few people here have said that if he avoids injury, he'll literally be as good as Hakeem Olajuwon. You see dudes like DeAndre Jordan or Steven Adams or the Plumlee on the Nets come in and contribute immediately while just being athletic and big and having no other real discernible skills so when you see someone with the tools come along who also happens to have a fairly polished set of basketball moves come in, it's something notable. Like all basketball players in college, he had some bad or underwhelming games and he had some great ones, but it's impossible to extrapolate from stats alone whether or not a player will be good or not. I don't think Embiid should be the #1 pick. I don't think anyone who posts that he should be is dumb, though (except for like one guy). It's just a matter of opinion.
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May 27, 2014 03:53
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Anthony Davis showed very few offensive skills in his one year of college ball. He has been fantastic on offense in the NBA since his first game.
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May 27, 2014 04:04
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MourningView posted:He put up good college numbers when you consider how many minutes he was playing, especially early. And they are particularly amazing when you consider that he's been playing basketball for like four years. If you actually watch him play you'll say that he's incredibly smooth and natural looking athletically in a way that a lot of the guys you're talking about weren't, in addition to having an incredibly high skill level for someone his age/experience level. He also improved dramatically as the season went on. I'd like to think my position is a bit more nuanced than what you claim it to be. First off, there's been plenty of freakishly athletic big men who were legitimately good #1 picks, but they all had a great track record to call upon. Secondly, I don't think Embiid turning into a really good player (a reasonable outcome) really disproves the point I'm trying to make here. With Jabari Parker, its very likely he turns into the next Carmelo Anthony, perhaps the best pure scorer of his generation, a top 5 player. And Wiggins will likely be even better than that, because he's more versatile, and understands that defense is a thing that professional basketballers should attempt. The question I'm asking is, as an NBA GM, do you pass up on those guys to pick a freakishly athletic but kinda raw 7 footer who's still learning the game? 9 times out of 10, the right answer hasn't been the 7 footer.
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May 27, 2014 04:08
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The B_36 posted:With Jabari Parker, its very likely he turns into the next Carmelo Anthony, perhaps the best pure scorer of his generation, a top 5 player. And Wiggins will likely be even better than that, because he's more versatile, and understands that defense is a thing that professional basketballers should attempt. Neither of those things is "very likely" good lord. And your position is not nuanced at all, it's "I haven't seen any of these people play but I've read that this guy is raw and have read that these guys are less raw, and also sometimes tall guys busts, so obviously he shouldn't be the number one pick".
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May 27, 2014 04:08
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It is also almost certain that Jabari Parker will be a bad defender whereas Embiid was a good defender in college and will likely continue to be one in the pros
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May 27, 2014 04:10
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Like if anyone thought that it was something close to a lock that Parker would turn into Carmelo (who is not a Top 5 player, but whatever), he'd be the first pick and no one else would be close. To say something like that about any prospect is insane.
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May 27, 2014 04:13
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The B_36 posted:I'd like to think my position is a bit more nuanced than what you claim it to be. First off, there's been plenty of freakishly athletic big men who were legitimately good #1 picks, but they all had a great track record to call upon. Secondly, I don't think Embiid turning into a really good player (a reasonable outcome) really disproves the point I'm trying to make here. With Jabari Parker, its very likely he turns into the next Carmelo Anthony, perhaps the best pure scorer of his generation, a top 5 player. And Wiggins will likely be even better than that, because he's more versatile, and understands that defense is a thing that professional basketballers should attempt. I think Parker is going to be a slightly above average NBA player. I've never seen him play. If your payoff for a 9/10 gamble is a decade of first and second round playoff exits vs a 1/10 with championships, you take the 1/10, obviously. People repeatedly take the 7 footer because the payoff is so much greater, even if the odds are longer. Embiid has that potential.
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May 27, 2014 04:16
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Kibner posted:Anthony Davis showed very few offensive skills in his one year of college ball. He has been fantastic on offense in the NBA since his first game.
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May 27, 2014 04:22
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INSPECTAH DECK posted:He didn't definitively showed the super mega elite skills that he's already demonstrated in 2 years but I think we're stretching it to say he showed very few offensive skills. He was finishing everything near the basket, doing very well on the offensive glass, was a pretty decent FT shooter for a big man and showed at least some ability to handle the ball. He had that reputation because of the whole HE USED TO BE A GUARD thing, but in actuality he hardly ever handled the ball or took a jump shot in college. Almost all his points were off stuff like lobs or putbacks. The FT shooting was a good sign though.
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May 27, 2014 04:25
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The B_36 posted:I'd like to think my position is a bit more nuanced than what you claim it to be. First off, there's been plenty of freakishly athletic big men who were legitimately good #1 picks, but they all had a great track record to call upon. Secondly, I don't think Embiid turning into a really good player (a reasonable outcome) really disproves the point I'm trying to make here. With Jabari Parker, its very likely he turns into the next Carmelo Anthony, perhaps the best pure scorer of his generation, a top 5 player. And Wiggins will likely be even better than that, because he's more versatile, and understands that defense is a thing that professional basketballers should attempt. You're acting like the guy is getting drafted straight from Cameroon or from a mid-major conference. He was on a team with multiple blue chip players in one of the hardest conferences in college basketball. He's not that big of an x-factor beyond the back injury (which is a huuuuuuge x-factor, but you seem to be bringing up the stats more than that.)
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May 27, 2014 04:26
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If the idea is that the Cavs are going to lose Kyrie is true, would trying to flip him to the Bucks for their pick be a good move? I think the Bucks wouldn't mind taking the risk since they are always in make-the-playoffs-now mode and rarely do the long term thing, and Kyrie could probably drag that squad to the playoffs. And, since the Cavs are starting over yet again this season, why not start fresh?
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May 27, 2014 04:45
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The Cavs want to win now too.
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May 27, 2014 04:49
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MourningView posted:Like if anyone thought that it was something close to a lock that Parker would turn into Carmelo (who is not a Top 5 player, but whatever), he'd be the first pick and no one else would be close. To say something like that about any prospect is insane. People have said in this very thread, without a hint of irony, that Embiid will be the next Hakeem Olajuwon, barring injuries. That's really what I was responding to - that's insane.k You and Declan haven't been that hyperbolic of course. Btw, if you don't think that Anthony is a top 5 player (something I can maybe agree with you on), but at the same time say that a Carmelo Anthony level player would be a guaranteed lock #1 pick in a loaded draft, then what exactly are you saying? Personally, I think that if you have a top 3 pick in a non historically bad draft class (like this past years), then its reasonable (tho obviously not guaranteed) for you to hope that guy develops eventually into a top 5 talent. Many of them statistically can't of course, but its a reasonable expectation. In this class, you're looking at a few guys who probably will be elite level talents, and probably at least one of them will be crazy good. Maybe that one is Embiid, but I think its more likely to be Wiggins.
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May 27, 2014 05:01
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The B_36 posted:Btw, if you don't think that Anthony is a top 5 player (something I can maybe agree with you on), but at the same time say that a Carmelo Anthony level player would be a guaranteed lock #1 pick in a loaded draft, then what exactly are you saying? I don't think anyone from this draft is going to be a Top 5 player. I don't think anyone really does. If they did then there wouldn't be as much discussion about who should go first as there has been. Most drafts, even very good ones, don't have a guy like that. It's a close to impossible bar to clear. This is the very good draft, and more than that a very deep one, but it's not the supposedly league altering 03-like draft it was hyped to be before any of these guys played a college game. Wiggins isn't the no doubt about it superstar people wanted him to be. He still could be that, but he has a lot of flaws and it's going to take a lot of work on his part. He's a lot more likely to be a Paul George-level player than he is to be a LeBron type player, which is still really good. The guy in this draft who will be the best if he hits his ceiling will be Emiid, so if you really want to swing for the fences and try to get a franchise altering guy he's not an unreasonable pick. He I could absolutely see being a Top 5 player, though I wouldn't call it "very likely" for him either. MourningView fucked around with this message at 05:16 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 05:11
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Probably Magic posted:You're acting like the guy is getting drafted straight from Cameroon or from a mid-major conference. He was on a team with multiple blue chip players in one of the hardest conferences in college basketball. He's not that big of an x-factor beyond the back injury (which is a huuuuuuge x-factor, but you seem to be bringing up the stats more than that.) I'm bringing up the stats because I think they're important. He was playing against and WITH top level NCAA talent and produced mediocre numbers at a high efficiency. Great. So have a ton of "toolsy" guys with mind blowing measurables who teams used high picks on. They all had scouting tapes where they blew around stationary assistant coaches and dunked a lot. They all could hit a completely unguarded 15 foot jump shot and make it look smooth. They all had an eleven foot wingspan and a 63" vertical leap. They all looked really good in limited usage on their college team. GM's lose their jobs by falling in love with these type of guys. The type of big men who really make it in the NBA generally have a track record beforehand to indicate they're actually good players, not just potentially good players. Shaq dominated college competition. So did Duncan, so did Robinson, so did Olajuwon, hell, so did Kevin Love. We're in an era of weak post play, but even now the top big men were really good in college. Davis was unquestionably the best player on a championship team. Also, people look at some guys and say "he's only been playing organized basketball for 2 mths and look how much he's improved in that time!!" like that's a positive. It's not. NBA basketball is hard and takes years to get good at. Extrapolating the improvement a player makes in his first few years of playing and assuming he'll continue improving at anywhere close to that pace is ridiculous. Literally the only guy in the history of basketball who picked up the game late in his teens and actually became really good at is Hakeem Olajuwon. Its much more likely that Embiid has reached a plateau in his development (a plateau that enables him to avg 10/6 against college players) than it is that he'll keep improving at this pace when faced with competition that is nearly as big and athletic as he is. Everything that's been said about him has been said about the Eddy Curry's, the Tyson Chandler's, the Michael Olowokandi's, the Sam Bowie's, the Jan Vesely's, the Alexis Ajinca's, the Rafael Araujo's, the Andrea Bargnani's of the recent past. He'll probably end up better than all those guys except possibly Chandler in his prime, but if he's picked #1, I predict he'll be mentioned in the same breath as Sam Bowie. Also, I can't believe I'm going to die on this sword. Oh well.
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May 27, 2014 05:54
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I have very strong opinions about this player I have never actually watched play basketball outside of youtube clips. I also like that high school players count for the point you are trying to make when they're bad (although I have no idea how Tyson Chandler winds up on that list) but not when they're good. And you should maybe look up what Hakeem was doing when he was Embiid's age. MourningView fucked around with this message at 05:59 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 05:56
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MourningView posted:I don't think anyone from this draft is going to be a Top 5 player. I don't think anyone really does. If they did then there wouldn't be as much discussion about who should go first as there has been. Most drafts, even very good ones, don't have a guy like that. It's a close to impossible bar to clear. This is the very good draft, and more than that a very deep one, but it's not the supposedly league altering 03-like draft it was hyped to be before any of these guys played a college game. Wiggins isn't the no doubt about it superstar people wanted him to be. He still could be that, but he has a lot of flaws and it's going to take a lot of work on his part. He's a lot more likely to be a Paul George-level player than he is to be a LeBron type player, which is still really good. The guy in this draft who will be the best if he hits his ceiling will be Emiid, so if you really want to swing for the fences and try to get a franchise altering guy he's not an unreasonable pick. He I could absolutely see being a Top 5 player, though I wouldn't call it "very likely" for him either. Maybe there's a miscommunication here then? I meant top 5 player when that player is currently playing, not all time. Obviously its stupid to expect a guy to become a top 5 player ever if he's never played an NBA game. Even Lebron wasn't that hyped although he's gone on to be a reasonable candidate for GOAT already. This is a loaded draft, I think its reasonable to expect the top 3-4 picks to eventually become the best 3-4 players currently in the league at some point.
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May 27, 2014 06:04
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The thing is, with the top 5 players-- there are only 5 of them. And most of them will still be playing in a few years.
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May 27, 2014 06:07
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The B_36 posted:Maybe there's a miscommunication here then? I meant top 5 player when that player is currently playing, not all time. I know exactly what you meant. quote:This is a loaded draft, I think its reasonable to expect the top 3-4 picks to eventually become the best 3-4 players currently in the league at some point. This is an insane expectation from any draft. There are almost no drafts like this in the entire history of the NBA. What about any of these players in particular makes you think that they will be among the 3-4 best players in the entire NBA, aside from being in a draft you have read people call "loaded"
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May 27, 2014 06:08
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Considering most drafts produce what, five guys that get a second NBA contract, I view this draft as loaded because it's projected to produce 5 guys who will probably be rotation players.
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May 27, 2014 06:14
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Blinkman987 posted:The thing is, with the top 5 players-- there are only 5 of them. And most of them will still be playing in a few years. Yeah, of course. Its not like each of the top 4 picks will ever be neatly ranked in 5 yrs as the best 4 players in the league. But still, it's at Ieast reasonable for each of the teams picking in the top 4-5 this year to think they got a guy who will become one of those top 5 players. Probably one of the guys picked later in the lottery (or likely someone the Spurs pick up with the last pick in the second round) will surprise everyone and be really really good as well.
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May 27, 2014 06:17
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what on Earth are you talking about? it's reasonable for the top 5 teams to think that they'll get a top 5 nba player? that's not reasonable.
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May 27, 2014 06:18
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Didn't Dirk start playing basketball when he was 15?
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May 27, 2014 06:18
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Rick posted:Considering most drafts produce what, five guys that get a second NBA contract, I view this draft as loaded because it's projected to produce 5 guys who will probably be rotation players. I find this hard to believe. I would think that probably 90% of NBA contracts come from guys who were drafted at some point. Thus, almost every second contract is signed by guys who were drafted. Is there a source of NBA players I'm not aware of? Are their really that many undrafted D league call ups getting contracts? When's the last time an undrafted player made an all star team? Ben Wallace?
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May 27, 2014 06:21
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