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ronya posted:now he's a "consummate politician" rather than a racist outsider To be fair though, in context 'consumate politician' wasn't meant as a compliment, it was a label used to counter his 'man of the people' shtick.
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May 27, 2014 09:57
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the time to use it was before he got electoral validation now it just means "well he's not someone we can just dismiss any more, so if you vote for him instead us, the hated passive establishment, he can get you what you want".
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May 27, 2014 10:33
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But he was already elected, the difference is simply that more of his racist drinking chums are elected too.
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May 27, 2014 10:38
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winegums posted:Imagine it was truly the case that there were groups of people coming here just to mooch off of the British taxpayers. People who have nothing but contempt for us, who want to utilise the system we've built but do nothing to support it. I would genuinely dislike this group of people. 
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May 27, 2014 11:50
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I love UKIP! They are at least honest about their policies! A man on Facebook to me yesterday. I loving despair.
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May 27, 2014 11:53
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 Gotta love this pic
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May 27, 2014 12:00
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May 27, 2014 12:03
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thehustler posted:I love UKIP! They are at least honest about their policies! Ask him what those policies are given that they threw out their manifesto when people kept on pointing out how batshit insane it was.
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May 27, 2014 12:04
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Gonzo McFee posted:Ask him what those policies are given that they threw out their manifesto when people kept on pointing out how batshit insane it was. They're announcing it in September in Doncaster. Apparently it'll contain something-something NHS and something-something cost of living and a whole lot of something-something IMMIGRANTS!
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May 27, 2014 12:23
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One slightly perverse consequence of the rise of UKIP and the FN is that it may have increased Cameron's ability to demand EU reform. Sarkozy is apparently looking to reclaim the French presidency in 2017, and he recently took a position that is in some ways more extreme than what Cameron has been suggesting - he's talking about a wholesale overhaul of Schengen and restricting the EU's competences to industry, agriculture, trade, competition, energy and research. The timing of the French elections is awkward for Cameron's plan to renegotiate the terms of Britain's EU membership in 2015 prior to a referendum in 2017 - if Sarkozy or a UMP guy with similar sentiments were elected, Cameron would potentially be able to form an alliance with them and thereby gain a lot of leverage with which to secure concessions, but to do that he'd have to postpone the referendum until 2018 or later. Cameron's also trying to exploit the rise of the eurosceptics to get one of his preferred candidates selected as the president of the european commission in place of the nominal winner, Jean-Claude Juncker. Juncker's quite strongly in favour of further european integration and Cameron wants him replaced with... well, basically a quiet yes man who'll shut up and let the national governments do all the talking. It's not clear whether he has any chance of getting his way here - Merkel's support for Juncker is a little non-committal and there were rumors that the EPP would be willing to drop Juncker if they won a plurality of seats in the european parliament, but for now he's their candidate. The FT's analysis of the situation in France is also... predictable: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5516f4aa-e26e-11e3-89fd-00144feabdc0.html#axzz32qHbZkYu quote:The most alarming outcome was the one in France. The triumph of the FN and the shattering defeat for the Socialist party have dealt another setback to François Hollande’s dismal presidency. The result makes it harder for France to play a full role beside Germany as the traditional motor of European integration.
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May 27, 2014 12:36
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Gonzo McFee posted:Ask him what those policies are given that they threw out their manifesto when people kept on pointing out how batshit insane it was. Even better, ask him to explain why they were employing Bulgarians to hand out leaflets for the expressly stated reason that they were cheaper than British workers, when their core message has consistently been about putting British workers over immigrants.
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May 27, 2014 12:48
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Edit: ugh, screw my phone.
Doctor_Fruitbat fucked around with this message at 12:51 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 12:49
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Gonzo McFee posted:Ask him what those policies are given that they threw out their manifesto when people kept on pointing out how batshit insane it was. "Are you serious? So what's in their manifesto then, which of their policies in particular struck a chord?" "I can't remember off hand, but a lot of stuff made sense!" "You can't remember because they don't have any policies you loving idiot." "No, that can't be right. No, what they said made sense!" Actual conversation I had with someone I know. Note, this guy isn't a complete idiot normally, and as far as I'm aware isn't a closet fascist (although we're not that close, so I haven't checked all his closets). In a neat twist, his granddad actually came over penniless to the UK from Spain. It was like he'd been brainwashed. Whenever I tried to pin down what the hell went on at that meeting, he'd just get this vague look on his face and keep saying "it all made sense" over and over. It was pretty surreal really. I've a feeling a lot of UKIP's support comes from the fact that their manifesto is so insubstantial right now, so they can be all things to all people. I'm hoping they'll be pretty hosed once they actually have to write their loopy as gently caress ideas down.
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May 27, 2014 12:51
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LemonDrizzle posted:One slightly perverse consequence of the rise of UKIP and the FN is that it may have increased Cameron's ability to demand EU reform. Sarkozy is apparently looking to reclaim the French presidency in 2017, and he recently took a position that is in some ways more extreme than what Cameron has been suggesting - he's talking about a wholesale overhaul of Schengen and restricting the EU's competences to industry, agriculture, trade, competition, energy and research. The timing of the French elections is awkward for Cameron's plan to renegotiate the terms of Britain's EU membership in 2015 prior to a referendum in 2017 - if Sarkozy or a UMP guy with similar sentiments were elected, Cameron would potentially be able to form an alliance with them and thereby gain a lot of leverage with which to secure concessions, but to do that he'd have to postpone the referendum until 2018 or later. the commitment seems vague enough that it could still wind up as an expansion of power of Brussels - common immigration policy implies centralized power to set residency requirements.
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May 27, 2014 13:19
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Gonzo McFee posted:Ask him what those policies are given that they threw out their manifesto when people kept on pointing out how batshit insane it was. According to this New Statesman article, their economic policy is heading somewhat left. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they entirely abandoned right libertarianism and campaigned for the generals on renationalisation as it'd be a nationalist, populist position. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/04/how-ukip-turning-left-economy Obviously the party attracts racists in droves. Any party critical of immigration will, and Farage capitalises on it. I think it's pretty disingenuous to write off every UKIP voter as a bigot however. The economic impact (net benefit for us I expect) of migration and EU membership is unlikely to be felt evenly across income levels (some may see real disadvantages? Especially as a result of austerity), and I'm not convinced that neoliberalism is able to deliver anything approaching equitable globalisation. They're the only prominent anti-EU party, and EU opponents are a very broad church (also with such a bare manifesto, there's less risk of alienating people at this stage). Not that I voted for them. But I'm very interested in people's motivations.
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May 27, 2014 13:19
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Car Stranger posted:According to this New Statesman article, their economic policy is heading somewhat left. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they entirely abandoned right libertarianism and campaigned for the generals on renationalisation as it'd be a nationalist, populist position. It's interesting because it feels a lot like they are just saying whatever they need to say to get in. The newspaper says that they ran with the slogan "protect your benefits!" in some areas whereas in others and on their website they are pushing the don't give benefits to lazy scroungers angle. How do you fight against a group that will change their policies completely whenever they feel challenged? It's like punching a cloud. Edit: And what is it they actually do want to do if they get into power?
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May 27, 2014 13:27
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ronya posted:the commitment seems vague enough that it could still wind up as an expansion of power of Brussels - common immigration policy implies centralized power to set residency requirements.
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May 27, 2014 13:30
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moving forward to a Hamilton moment Europe will also require more treaties regardless, the treaties as they stand are all consciously transitional treaties anyway. You can't look at, e.g., Treaty of Lisbon's defence stuff and say "yeah, this looks like a stable arrangement as is".
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May 27, 2014 13:38
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Even better, ask him to explain why they were employing Bulgarians to hand out leaflets for the expressly stated reason that they were cheaper than British workers, when their core message has consistently been about putting British workers over immigrants. While I love a good UKIP bash, I'm also a skeptic that likes the truth. Was this not because they were using an agency, and the agency employed the Bulgarians, or did UKIP themselves directly employ them?
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May 27, 2014 13:59
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And re above somebody pointing out that their economic policy is very left-leaning, it was being pointed out before the election that if you look at what most UKIP voters actually want, they are more aligned with the Greens than anybody else. So clearly it was the racism that swung them to vote UKIP 
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May 27, 2014 14:00
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hookerbot 5000 posted:It's interesting because it feels a lot like they are just saying whatever they need to say to get in. The newspaper says that they ran with the slogan "protect your benefits!" in some areas whereas in others and on their website they are pushing the don't give benefits to lazy scroungers angle. How do you fight against a group that will change their policies completely whenever they feel challenged? It's like punching a cloud. Yeah the 2010 manifesto is ludicrous and rightfully disowned, but I want to know what has changed between then and now. Why would 2010 not repeat itself? The angle on that seems to have shifted to protecting benefits for UK nationals and denying them to new migrants. But there's no cohesion and no manifesto, so who really knows? I'm sure that reducing the party to two issues before the locals/Euros was a conscious play to pick up as much of the anti-EU/establishment vote as possible. They can only fragment it from here, whether they alienate the left or the right (centrism would be even worse, given that's what everyone else is). They got an easy leg up from the established left though, because (at least at a newspaper/TV level?) we seem totally incapable of critically discussing the EU or globalisation and would rather avoid the issue by just calling people bigots en masse. Most everyone was blanket dismissive of UKIP voters before the Euros, and it's not wise to be dismissive of the politically disenfranchised - as is reflected in their results. Which at least seem to have gotten some conversation going, because they're issues that need to be engaged with. Though I'll probably poo poo myself the day I see high level, empirically backed and well reasoned discourse about either the EU or migration in newspapers.
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May 27, 2014 14:02
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tooterfish posted:"I went to a UKIP meeting. They're not racist and a lot of the things said made sense" You'd be amazed. If the UKIP observer at my count had two British parents I'll eat her rosette.
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May 27, 2014 14:03
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You often see the same in american politics - immigrants or 2nd generation supporting strict immigration control, it's a 'I got mine, now to make sure that what I got can't be diluted...' mindset.
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May 27, 2014 14:08
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Car Stranger posted:According to this New Statesman article, their economic policy is heading somewhat left. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they entirely abandoned right libertarianism and campaigned for the generals on renationalisation as it'd be a nationalist, populist position. The problem UKIP has is that while an FN-esque pushing of populist left wing economics pushing in Labour areas and entirely focusing on the EU and immigration in Tory areas may be the best path for them, the party was founded as a disgruntled Tories' party. They may find themselves with a lot of angry higher-ups if they try to position themselves to the the economic left of the Tories. Or they might manage it fine.
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May 27, 2014 14:09
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Car Stranger posted:According to this New Statesman article, their economic policy is heading somewhat left. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they entirely abandoned right libertarianism and campaigned for the generals on renationalisation as it'd be a nationalist, populist position. Economically left nationalists? Hrrrrm
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May 27, 2014 14:21
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Spangly A posted:Economically left nationalists? Ooh, ooh, I know this one! 
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May 27, 2014 14:36
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well, it's not a new phenomenon it's just that the club of people who are "like us" rather than "Others" always gets smaller and smaller and smaller over time. It's all too easy to fall into a trap of pseudo-socialists using Foreigners to successfully deflect blame for their mistakes
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May 27, 2014 14:39
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Jesus Christ. Is it humanly possible to look that loving smug, or is that part of the shop?
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May 27, 2014 14:40
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tooterfish posted:Jesus Christ. Is it humanly possible to look that loving smug, or is that part of the shop? Just be grateful he's not doing his sarlac impression like usual.
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May 27, 2014 14:43
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May be of use to many in this thread: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ukitten/emilnmiaddhlfpidckmgkdiponidpeje
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May 27, 2014 14:45
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so what happens to the 1.2m brits living in europe if we walk away?
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May 27, 2014 14:45
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notaspy posted:so what happens to the 1.2m brits living in europe if we walk away? britain invested in their education and it's for the good of britain if they're forced to return. their residence in Europe is neoliberal exploitation of British Taxpayers
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May 27, 2014 14:48
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Literally can't remember if I or anybody else posted this here, but did anybody see the interview with the original UKIP founder? http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/26/ukip-founder-alan-sked-party-become-frankensteins-monster Very interesting comments in there and some stories about what Farage was like some years back. If it's true, of course...
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May 27, 2014 14:51
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god, that office. He's going to show up on a hoarder's show at some point, isn't he
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May 27, 2014 14:56
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thehustler posted:And re above somebody pointing out that their economic policy is very left-leaning, it was being pointed out before the election that if you look at what most UKIP voters actually want, they are more aligned with the Greens than anybody else. So clearly it was the racism that swung them to vote UKIP E: I expect things would have looked somewhat different if there were a prominent leftist, Eurosceptic party running, is really what I'm trying to say with all this. I can't/don't want to believe that such a huge swathe of the electorate are straight up racists. Car Stranger fucked around with this message at 15:19 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 15:02
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Meanwhile, in Northern Ireland the Euro count is still underway. The story of the election is rapidly becoming how god drat long it's taking to count the votes - there have been rumblings about converting to electronic voting machines. STV does have it's downsides... Here's the Belfast Telegraphs take on it: 
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May 27, 2014 15:04
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E: drat phone postin
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May 27, 2014 15:05
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E: this is not my day
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May 27, 2014 15:05
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kustomkarkommando posted:Meanwhile, in Northern Ireland the Euro count is still underway. The story of the election is rapidly becoming how god drat long it's taking to count the votes - there have been rumblings about converting to electronic voting machines. STV does have it's downsides... Scotland has electronic counting with paper ballots for the STV local government elections; and generally results are out quite quickly. THe first election in which theyhad them was a total farce because they combined the locals with the Scottish parliament elections and it was the first election for which STV was used as well as a very lovely single ballot paper for Scottish elections. You ended up with literally thousands of spoiled papers in the Scottish elections; although the local elections apparently went a little better. They fixed this by moving the council elections back a year to prevent them from clashing and moved to the two ballot paper system that actually worked in 1999 and 2003... Since NI has had STV elections for longer and only the westminster elections used FPTP, it would probably work perfectly OK there...
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May 27, 2014 15:26
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Car Stranger posted:E: I expect things would have looked somewhat different if there were a prominent leftist, Eurosceptic party running, is really what I'm trying to say with all this. I can't/don't want to believe that such a huge swathe of the electorate are straight up racists. well much of the euroskepticism, at a popular level, is rationalized through a vast overestimation as to just how much funds are going to undeserving and ungrateful foreigners, either via Brussels or via local welfare so the leftist populism hooks onto the idea of instead redistributing these funds to more populist causes, but the funds don't exist. it doesn't matter how much latent desire there is in the population for one and one to add up to three, it ain't gonna happen. An organized political movement based on this is hard to sustain
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May 27, 2014 15:28
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