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Silly Voodoo posted:I just started reading A Bride's Story after hearing all the praise it's gotten, but it's pretty hard to ignore the inherent creepiness in a 12 year old and a 20 year old being married. Does it get better later? The normal state of affairs would be the girl getting married at 13-14 to a male ages 13-40 and start having kids right away. He's basically 1 year away from being an adult and she's past the sell by date in that culture. Especially if someone was an heir or the first child from a wealthy family they get married really young in that culture because life is rough in the Caucasus.
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May 27, 2014 04:54
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AnonSpore posted:Those drat non-white cultures are so drat creepy This is an insane statement to make when your talking about marrying children to adults.
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May 27, 2014 05:15
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coathat posted:This is an insane statement to make when your talking about marrying children to adults. That makes it even better! 
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May 27, 2014 05:16
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Silly Voodoo posted:I just started reading A Bride's Story after hearing all the praise it's gotten, but it's pretty hard to ignore the inherent creepiness in a 12 year old and a 20 year old being married. Does it get better later? It depends on what you'd consider better; it's not as if the age gap there is going to get any smaller as the series progresses, although of course Karluk isn't going to be 12 forever. But I think Kaoru Mori does pretty well at not being a creep about the situation. We do have to take into account the culture of the time the manga is set. One thing that A Bride's Story does do is focus on bride stories other than Amir's, so if you really wanted to you could potentially skip over everything to do with Amir, although the story does return to her from time to time. But I think that someone invested enough in the manga to do that would be invested enough to eventually end up reading Amir's sections of the series after all. Van Dine fucked around with this message at 05:36 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 05:34
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Van Dine posted:But I think Kaoru Mori does pretty well at not being a creep about the situation. This is all I wanted to know, thanks.
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May 27, 2014 05:37
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It's not an excuse to have a "kid with a sexy onee-san" situation, if that's what you're afraid of. Far from it! In fact, I don't think sexuality ever even comes up. It's sincerely an incredibly well-drawn and relaxing historical slice-of-life story.
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May 27, 2014 06:52
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coathat posted:This is an insane statement to make when your talking about marrying children to adults. In that culture, at that time, they are not children. That's the point. Our rules and definitions are not absolutes, they are what we as a society in this time and place have agreed upon. The way these characters behave is not wrong, it is simply different. Keep in mind that this was a time when people did not live to be 90 years old; there's some dialog very early on where someone refers to Amira as "long in the tooth." Things happen earlier and with more urgency, by necessity. There's a bunch of stuff in this manga about how women are essentially property, too. Their fathers own them until they marry, at which point their husbands own them. It's something that both genders are portrayed as accepting as just the natural order of things. I personally found that far more uncomfortable than the age thing, considering how my own society has progressed. She's portraying a culture here that is quite alien to the ones I'm used to (both my own and what you normally find in anime), and that's one of the best things about it. And yes, as others have pointed out, this was clearly not done to pander to anybody.
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May 27, 2014 10:47
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Actually it is wrong to gently caress twelve year olds.
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May 27, 2014 14:49
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Good thing Otoyomegatari doesn't have any 12-year-old-loving, then! I wouldn't want to read a manga with that sort of thing either!
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May 27, 2014 15:15
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I know that. I'm just saying that defending marrying children to adults is weird as hell.
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May 27, 2014 15:39
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Wow, not the stance I expected someone with that user title to take. [edit] I guess the point being made is that adulthood is a partially socially constructed concept that has varied throughout the ages. No one is defending children being married, or proposing that we lower the age of consent or emulate the things in this manga or whatever the heck, nor is any of that suggested by the manga itself. Anyway, the age difference between Karluk and Amir is presented as being a barrier in their relationship, and definitely a negative thing, and while the two characters seem to accept their situation, I don't think Mori is trying to portray it as ideal or desirable at all. There is a lot of creepy loving poo poo in this subforum and more power to you as far as calling that stuff out goes, but I am pretty sure you could find a better example with your eyes closed. VVVV yeah what these guys said Frankenstein Dad fucked around with this message at 04:09 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 15:47
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coathat posted:I know that. I'm just saying that defending marrying children to adults is weird as hell. I don't think people are defending it so much as just mentioning it's a cultural difference and does not become a creepy focal point of the story thus shouldn't be a reason to stop reading what is a really good manga.
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May 27, 2014 15:48
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coathat posted:I know that. I'm just saying that defending marrying children to adults is weird as hell. I don't see a defense of that in this thread either. More of a "this is something that happened back then in this time" and, for very good reasons, it doesn't happen these days. Also, their relationship and how they struggle with the age difference in various ways is a key part of the sections with Karluk and Amir. In general it is a difficult topic well treated by the author. In addition the fact that they haven't consummated their marriage (and that due to the age difference many people are pretty drat certain it hasn't been consummated yet) does end up also becoming a major plot point down the line.
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May 27, 2014 15:51
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Che Delilas posted:In that culture, at that time, they are not children. That's the point. Our rules and definitions are not absolutes, they are what we as a society in this time and place have agreed upon. The way these characters behave is not wrong, it is simply different. Keep in mind that this was a time when people did not live to be 90 years old; there's some dialog very early on where someone refers to Amira as "long in the tooth." Things happen earlier and with more urgency, by necessity. That means their culture is wrong.
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May 27, 2014 19:20
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equity posted:That means their culture is wrong. Yeah but this is the Foreign History manga thread not 'judgement of silk road civilization' station or anything.
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May 27, 2014 19:28
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equity posted:That means their culture is wrong. Did you even read it? If a generous quantity of slammin bods and quality rude titties is wrong I don't want to be right imo
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May 27, 2014 22:10
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The idea that a 12 year old child is mentally and emotionally capable of having a safe sexual relationship with a 20 year old man is wrong, yes.
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May 27, 2014 22:12
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Flip comment that came off creepier than intended  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) That Works fucked around with this message at 13:04 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 22:39
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Also, if you want to talk about things being "wrong" in these historical mangas then the killing, pillage, rapine, violence, slavery, sexual exploitation, child abuse in Vinland Saga is also firmly beyond the pale. The institutional frameworks which lead to the kind of arrangements like the ones shown in Otoyomegatari can (and to this day still do) lead to horrific abuses. The strongest criticism I could lay on Otoyomegatari's doorstep is that due to it's overall sunny outlook and by specifically not going all creepy in some of the scenarios it covers it glosses over the heinous poo poo that did and still does go on to this day. Frankly though, I don't want this manga to read like one of the Human Rights Watch reports out of Saudi Arabia. Also, lest we feel all superior in our western enlightenment, Catholic canon law sets the minimum age of marriage for women at 14. That's what the minimum was raised to when they formulated the 1917 book of canon law (so googling around the topic tells me). Thankfully our social mores have changed but this has very much happened over the past century or so and there are still a measurable number of child marriages that do still occur in the west. Saagonsa posted:The idea that a 12 year old child is mentally and emotionally capable of having a safe sexual relationship with a 20 year old man is wrong, yes. I'd have generalised that one gender wise especially given the scenario under discussion...
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May 27, 2014 22:42
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Are you loving goons seriously starting to have this discussion in the foreign history manga thread?
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May 27, 2014 22:50
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trucutru posted:Are you loving goons seriously starting to have this discussion in the foreign history manga thread? Considering the premise of Otoyo, I'm surprised it took this long to happen, frankly.
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May 27, 2014 22:57
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trucutru posted:Are you loving goons seriously starting to have this discussion in the foreign history manga thread?  You loving goons  having a problem with a weird pedophile manga. You just don't get art *diddles 9 year old body pillow*
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May 27, 2014 22:57
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i agree gas this thread move all posters into vn thread and permaban everyone
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May 27, 2014 23:28
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Munin posted:The institutional frameworks which lead to the kind of arrangements like the ones shown in Otoyomegatari can (and to this day still do) lead to horrific abuses. The strongest criticism I could lay on Otoyomegatari's doorstep is that due to it's overall sunny outlook and by specifically not going all creepy in some of the scenarios it covers it glosses over the heinous poo poo that did and still does go on to this day. Frankly though, I don't want this manga to read like one of the Human Rights Watch reports out of Saudi Arabia. It does this less than you would expect though. The chapters with the battles were chaotic and brutal, and it's a major plot point that all of Amir's sisters were beaten to death.
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May 27, 2014 23:38
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Titty Warlord posted:
Hey all - manga expert here. While i havent read that particular manga, I think its probably the wrong thing to single out, since a. this forum contains a 100 page thread for hentai games and several smaller threads for harem and fanservice anime, and b. its about a 12 year old boy and a 20 year old woman, which is ftw instead of creepy.
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May 27, 2014 23:49
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Nope, boy with a woman is still creepy no matter how many high fives you give him.
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May 28, 2014 00:21
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halleys comet posted:Hey all - manga expert here. While i havent read that particular manga, I think its probably the wrong thing to single out, since a. this forum contains a 100 page thread for hentai games and several smaller threads for harem and fanservice anime, and b. its about a 12 year old boy and a 20 year old woman, which is ftw instead of creepy. Nope, not ftw. Otoyomegatari is still not a weird, creepy, pedophilic manga though unlike what Mr or Mrs Titty Warlord thinks. Though that impression is not helped by posts like yours.
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May 28, 2014 00:26
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halleys comet posted:Hey all - manga expert here. While i havent read that particular manga, I think its probably the wrong thing to single out, since a. this forum contains a 100 page thread for hentai games and several smaller threads for harem and fanservice anime lmao link me to this so i can update my list of something awful sex offenders Munin posted:Nope, not ftw. DO NOT misgender me Titty Warlord fucked around with this message at 00:54 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 00:48
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It's literally a comic about marriage practices in the Central Asia in the late 19th century, and is devoid of weird fetish crap. I don't think going "Hey, it's a comic about an era and place that is different from ours" is particularly astounding. The comic in question is milquetoast overwhelming in terms of anything controversial. Thanks for derailing this thread over something as inane as that. Zorak fucked around with this message at 02:02 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 01:54
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Zorak posted:It's literally a comic about marriage practices in the Central Asia in the late 19th century, and is devoid of weird fetish crap. I don't think going "Hey, it's a comic about an era and place that is different from ours" is particularly astounding. Wwwwwelllll... if you're really really into detailed fabrics, textiles, and woodwork it definitely could be your thing.  Those designs... 
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May 28, 2014 02:03
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Titty Warlord posted:DO NOT misgender me Sorry, should I have added a trans prefix as well? I have to admit I only generally cover the two bases and I have no idea what your gender is.
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May 28, 2014 02:26
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DrSunshine posted:
Mods, please?
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May 28, 2014 02:46
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completely inappropriate
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Oh look it's the Fyad-lite crowd desperate to try this whole "trolling" thing they've heard about from FYAD. Really, they could have done their homework and brought up Bunny Drop's ending.
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May 28, 2014 02:47
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Holy poo poo and here I thought there was going to be more discussion on one of the manga here but loving FYAD just shat over the thread. Also it seems nobody posted this but the next chapter of Shoukoku no Altair is out http://www.batoto.net/read/_/245630/shoukoku-no-altair_v9_ch47_by_sense-scans/3
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May 28, 2014 03:24
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jonjonaug posted:it's a major plot point that all of Amir's sisters were beaten to death. Holy poo poo when did this happen? I missed that part. ---- I just want to echo that as someone who is so creeped out by youth fetishization that she can't read the Song of Ice and Fire series that Otoyomegatari is pretty much not-creepy. The marriage is firmly portrayed as an arranged one, the age difference as not ideal, and that difference so far has been the main barrier to them developing the romantic and sexual dimensions of their relationship that one would hope to be present in a marriage.
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May 28, 2014 03:36
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ATP5G1 posted:Holy poo poo when did this happen? I missed that part. As far as I remember only one of them was. It was mentioned when her brothers came to take her back to marry her off to the same guy who perpetrated it. "He beat her so hard her bones shattered" was the way they put it, when they were talking among themselves. They never mentioned the details to Amira, only that she was dead.
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May 28, 2014 04:20
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Che Delilas posted:As far as I remember only one of them was. It was mentioned when her brothers came to take her back to marry her off to the same guy who perpetrated it. "He beat her so hard her bones shattered" was the way they put it, when they were talking among themselves. They never mentioned the details to Amira, only that she was dead. Pretty sure it was mentioned that the guy in question had done that to multiple girls. Whether they were also related to Amir, I don't remember. So, yeah. Her family was willing to sell her off to a guy who they could pretty much guarantee would beat her to death sooner rather than later, breaking an existing arrangement to do it, and since she was their last available marriage prospect they'd still lose the familial ties they were hoping for once Amir was dead. It's terrible on pretty much every level, both moral and practical. Then again, the Halgal leaders being utter fucktards is kind of a repeated theme.
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May 28, 2014 04:42
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The Sandman posted:Pretty sure it was mentioned that the guy in question had done that to multiple girls. Whether they were also related to Amir, I don't remember. They were all Amir's sisters too, so it wasn't like like "random tribal marriage goes wrong" it was "He's beaten your sister to death so were sending you as a replacement" The leader of Amir's tribe is a really, really delusional moron. The world is drastically changing around them and the sons see it but have to go along with basically marching to their death, and at one point Amir's younger brother suggest to the older one that they kill their father to avoid the mess the chief is starting.
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May 28, 2014 05:05
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Have we ever met Beating Papa yet in the comic, or has he been mostly just talked about and not seen?
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May 28, 2014 05:05
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DrSunshine posted:Have we ever met Beating Papa yet in the comic, or has he been mostly just talked about and not seen? I'm pretty sure he's the tribal leader, Granny bow and arrowed his rear end dead.
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May 28, 2014 05:42
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