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Jabarto posted:I don't get it, does the death scale affect aging? Yes
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May 31, 2014 01:54
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yeah iirc every unit with old age has a chance to accumulate afflictions in the winter months, with growth/death decreasing/increasing this chance
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May 31, 2014 07:20
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It's just at the start of early spring that old age afflictions happen, when age ticks up. Death magic supposedly lowers the chance, too.
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May 31, 2014 07:32
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I bring this discussion up on IRC from time to time, but I can never really decide between them. Site searching manually vs searching spells. Manual sitesearch is obviously cheaper on gems, but it is also very slow. One site/2 turns, and a mage that could be required for research or battle. You also want a fairly competent mage, in my book at the very least a 2 in the path. Nations like tien'chi got great rainbows but even then you can leave some large holes as their paths are usually random. Spells are very thorough, but will become costly over time. It will cost you less time though, as you can get one site/turn. Its safe, and its easy to do, but requires research before it gets online. How do you usually value site searching vs site spells?
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May 31, 2014 15:36
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The Gentleman posted:I bring this discussion up on IRC from time to time, but I can never really decide between them. Site searching manually vs searching spells. You manually sitesearch in the early game and you remote sitesearch in the mid/lategame. Rushing remote sitesearching is almost always a bad idea unless you have another, better reason to research thaum. You also, of course, manual sitesearch paths you don't have the gem income to remote sitesearch.
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May 31, 2014 16:06
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The Gentleman posted:I bring this discussion up on IRC from time to time, but I can never really decide between them. Site searching manually vs searching spells. If you have even moderately good rainbows you manually search that poo poo. Remote site searching is usually not a good idea: how many casts do you consider acceptable before finding a site that gives 1 gem/turn? I am going to propose that the correct thing to do is often not to sitesearch at all, or if you do do it very rarely. The best way to get gems is to run around the map killing other players and taking their sites.
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May 31, 2014 17:47
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I Love You! posted:If you have even moderately good rainbows you manually search that poo poo. Remote site searching is usually not a good idea: how many casts do you consider acceptable before finding a site that gives 1 gem/turn? In my opinion, it's mostly luck based, with a little bit of strategy in choosing your targets. You don't want to search sites (remote or otherwise) in provinces you know are going to fall to an enemy, for example. So you'll have to accurately decide which border is safe enough for searching sites. And of course you'll have to prioritize provinces you know aren't going to fall anytime soon, like fortified provinces. And if you go around killing other players, it's the same, just more violent. If you've chosen poorly, your precious army may get smashed and then you'll lose your own sites (and provinces). Remote site searching is your friend if you depend on your research: Remote site searching just costs one turn and your mages never leave their home province, so they are available for research again right after searching. I consider the gems used in remote searching as a mixture of research booster and booster for faster site searching. 
Libluini fucked around with this message at 18:12 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 18:10
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Here is the foolproof site search strategy: - Conquer your cap circle only - Rush for Acashic Knowledge - Set it to cast monthly - Only expand once you've searched every cap circle province, taking one province at a time and Knowledging each one With this method you will guarantee the most sites possible with a minimum of time wasted. Try it today!
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May 31, 2014 19:19
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AXE COP posted:Here is the foolproof site search strategy: If you don't expand at all beyond the cap circle your entire army can respond instantly to aggression.
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May 31, 2014 19:23
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AXE COP posted:Here is the foolproof site search strategy: An even better method: -Set up a lab in every province you conquer. -Recruit at least one mage in every province. -Rush for Acashic Knowledge. -Cast Acashic Knowledge in every province simultaneously. Time wasted: Zero turns. Who wants to try it out? 
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May 31, 2014 20:07
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I Love You! posted:If you have even moderately good rainbows you manually search that poo poo. Remote site searching is usually not a good idea: how many casts do you consider acceptable before finding a site that gives 1 gem/turn? It's sort of prisoner's dilemma going on, though. If nobody site-searches, you don't get that benefit by attacking people. Like Aby doesn't appear to have searched for any fire sites at all in this game, maybe I'll just leave him alone next time because his lands aren't as well site-searched.
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May 31, 2014 20:14
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Libluini posted:An even better method: This only works if you have S3s available everywhere. Literally the only nation that can pull that off is EA Ryleh. AXE COP's plan works better because it only requires that you buy S3 on your pretender or have S3s in your cap.
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May 31, 2014 20:15
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Libluini posted:An even better method: Even better method: Take a dormant or imprisoned rainbow pretender with S7 and 4+ in every other path. Rush to Evo9 Cast strands of arcane power and find all the sites in your dominion all at once.
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May 31, 2014 20:16
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sullat posted:It's sort of prisoner's dilemma going on, though. If nobody site-searches, you don't get that benefit by attacking people. Like Aby doesn't appear to have searched for any fire sites at all in this game, maybe I'll just leave him alone next time because his lands aren't as well site-searched. You find that out after you are occupying the land though and then go, "drat you."
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May 31, 2014 20:53
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Decrepus posted:You find that out after you are occupying the land though and then go, "drat you." WELL gently caress I GUESS ILL JUST GIVE ALL THIS LAND BACK
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May 31, 2014 20:59
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jsoh posted:WELL gently caress I GUESS ILL JUST GIVE ALL THIS LAND BACK "Sorry about invading you, you can have all these lovely provinces back now. Site search them for me next time kay?"
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May 31, 2014 21:00
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Libluini posted:You don't want to search sites (remote or otherwise) in provinces you know are going to fall to an enemy, for example. So you'll have to accurately decide which border is safe enough for searching sites. And of course you'll have to prioritize provinces you know aren't going to fall anytime soon This is why it's always better to start at the bottom of the map and expand up. Automatic sitsearch casting chooses the southernmost valid province, so if you start at the bottom you can shift+m with impunity
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May 31, 2014 21:23
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I don't know why Abysia wouldn't site-search. Its own troops are basically immune to most fire evocation due to a combination of massive armour and fire res.
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May 31, 2014 21:27
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AXE COP posted:Here is the foolproof site search strategy: FYI this works really well with the Niefelheim turtle strategy, assuming you can scrape together the points for an E9N9S3 oracle or something similar. An easy way to do this is to drop points into a Heat dominion.
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May 31, 2014 22:14
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Throne provinces have the manysites terrain type. They're probably the only type of province worth using acashic reader on.
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May 31, 2014 22:47
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Flavahbeast posted:This is why it's always better to start at the bottom of the map and expand up. Automatic sitsearch casting chooses the southernmost valid province, so if you start at the bottom you can shift+m with impunity I thought it was based on province number, which happens to correlate with north-south direction.
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Jun 1, 2014 01:02
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Decrepus posted:If you don't expand at all beyond the cap circle your entire army can respond instantly to aggression. You also only have 4-6 provinces to set to 100PD
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Jun 1, 2014 05:21
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JonJoe asked for the latest list of signups by nation:pre:3: MA Oceania 4: LA Caelum 6: MA Pelagia 6: MA Atlantis 6: MA Eriu 6: EA Oceania 7: MA Agartha 7: LA Lemuria 7: MA Shinuyama 7: LA Pangaea 7: EA Pelagia 8: MA T'ien Ch'i 8: LA Arcoscephale 9: MA R'lyeh 9: LA T'ien Ch'i 9: MA Ashdod 10: LA Utgard 10: MA Machaka 10: LA Patala 10: MA Ermor 10: EA Kailasa 10: LA Pythium 10: MA Bandar Log 10: MA Abysia 11: MA Vanheim 11: MA Caelum 11: LA Mictlan 11: LA Abysia 11: MA Jotunheim 11: LA R'lyeh 11: LA Gath 11: EA R'lyeh 11: LA Agartha 11: EA Atlantis 12: MA Sceleria 12: MA Mictlan 12: MA Pythium 12: MA Pangaea 12: MA Man 12: EA Caelum 12: EA Abysia 13: EA Pangaea 13: EA T'ien Ch'i 13: LA Marignon 13: MA Arcoscephale 13: MA Marignon 13: MA Vanarus 14: EA Hinnom 14: EA Helheim 14: LA C'tis 15: EA Ermor 15: LA Jomon 15: EA Marverni 15: EA C'tis 15: EA Vanheim 15: EA Mictlan 16: MA Ulm 16: EA Tir na n'Og 16: EA Machaka 17: EA Fomoria 17: LA Midgard 17: LA Man 17: LA Atlantis 17: LA Bogarus 18: EA Ur 18: EA Agartha 18: EA Arcoscephale 18: MA C'tis 18: EA Yomi 19: MA Asphodel 19: EA Lanka 21: LA Ulm 21: EA Berytos 21: EA Sauromatia 21: EA Niefelheim 24: EA Ulm 86 unknown (assuming these are mostly NationGen)
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Jun 1, 2014 06:11
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MA Oceania is the most signed up for nation... That is bullshit and weird, man. e: oh I think I had it completely backward, in which case:  @ Ulm
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Jun 1, 2014 07:29
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How are u posted:MA Oceania is the most signed up for nation... Yep. EA Ulm as the most signups, followed by Niefel/Sauro/Bery/LA Ulm In all honesty the Ulms aren't so bad, EA and LA have interesting components in the Dom4 metagame & mechanics. No surprise at Niefel and Sauro, I think Sauro is probably the most consistently strong nation through every patch and every mod this game's ever had.
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Jun 1, 2014 07:48
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I'm just surprised to see Lanka so high up on the list. I'll figure out the best way to use you little chaos monkey demons. One day. Seriously, is it just the blood summons?
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Jun 1, 2014 08:19
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Is there some sort of established ranking / tiering of the nations? I'd be really interested in what the vets think are the best / good / middling / difficult / don't-ever-play-ever nations (and give some succor to people like me who can say "hey, I managed to get to the end-game with <bad nation X>") Parts of that list are really surprising - I thought MA & LA T'ien Ch'i were at least pretty good, and that Eriu was thought to actually be pretty strong? And yet they're way down that list. I guess they're just a bit boring maybe?
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Jun 1, 2014 08:58
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Gaghskull posted:I'm just surprised to see Lanka so high up on the list. I'll figure out the best way to use you little chaos monkey demons. One day. air magic is cool. blood is cool. demon monkey.
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Jun 1, 2014 09:40
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Eriu is really good. It's also really dull. But Fir Bolg are always the best guys, and their magic is pretty decent. The real shocker there is MA Oceania. It's a pretty good nation. Can do a lot of stuff.
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Jun 1, 2014 12:39
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jBrereton posted:Eriu is really good. It's also really dull. But Fir Bolg are always the best guys, and their magic is pretty decent. The real shocker there is MA Oceania. It's a pretty good nation. Can do a lot of stuff. The wish engine is unstoppable in the right hands. The only real way to stop the wish engine is for the land nations to win the game before it comes online. In the wrong hands though, meh.
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Jun 1, 2014 12:57
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You really need to compare each age individually. We don't have that many all-age games. I'm really surprised that Oceania gets taken less than Pelagia. At least Oceania can get onto land.
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Jun 1, 2014 16:21
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Pelagia has a gimmick and that means a lot to a lot of people.
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Jun 1, 2014 16:29
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Neruz posted:The wish engine is unstoppable in the right hands. The only real way to stop the wish engine is for the land nations to win the game before it comes online. (Oceania also has pretty OK coastal fort troop recruits, which is why it's doubly shocking compared to Pelagia).
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Jun 1, 2014 16:41
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jBrereton posted:Ah yes, the Alt-9, S9, hundred-pearl New Meta with a per-turn total benefit of about twenty pearls and no combat utility. Nobody has more pearls than Pelagia, ever. Pelagia can dispel any global they want with ease and can throw up any astral global (like say Nexus) they want with enough pearls behind it to be basically undispellable. Also MA Pelagia's Triton Knights are possibly the best cavalry unit in the game; if they were amphibious they would single-handedly elevate MA Pelagia to Mictlan tier.
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Jun 1, 2014 17:01
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FnF posted:Is there some sort of established ranking / tiering of the nations? I'd be really interested in what the vets think are the best / good / middling / difficult / don't-ever-play-ever nations (and give some succor to people like me who can say "hey, I managed to get to the end-game with <bad nation X>") I am not really a vet but I've played a bunch of games at this point and have a relatively high win% and understanding of the game, I feel. In no way can I give an established tier list but I can definitely list a few of the standouts in each age as of now (in my estimation): EA: --- High Tier: Mictlan (Top tier in all ages) Tir Na Nog (Good at everything) Fomoria (Arguably one of the top nations in the game) Ur (One of the few gimmicks that is really versatile and comes into play early in the game, also good mages and H3s) Maybe High Tier? Berytos (Very strong paths and sailing and income) C'Tis (C'tis is High-Mid tier in every age honestly) Bottom Tier Ulm (No endgame) Caelum (No early game) Abysia (Easily countered) MA: (I haven't played as much MA so this isn't as good a list) --- God Tier: Ermor (Even though Ermor rarely wins thats because it takes the rest of the players all ganging up from the start to stop him and everyone knows this) High Tier: Mictlan (Maybe the weakest Mictlan but still Mictlan) Ashdod (Incredibly dangerous sacreds if they are allowed to get rolling) Sceleria (Reanimation for early expansion and great chaff, H3s that can natively cast Teleport, fantastic communions, D and S magic in spades) Maybe High Tier? C'Tis (C'tis is High-Mid tier in every age honestly) Asphodel (I've heard very good things about them, but haven't played them enough) Tien Chi (Once again, I've heard they are very good in MA but haven't played them) Bottom Tier Marignon (Just bad) Abyssia (Easily Countered) LA: --- High Tier: Mictlan (Seriously gently caress mictlan) Ulm (Very mediocre early game that is vulnerable to infantry rushdown. Absolutely unbelievable midgame and probably the best lategame in the game. Iron Blizzard into heavy vamps and blood econ followed by Astral Corruption + Send Horror is virtually unbeatable if you're allowed to get there) Midgard (Amazing early game, Thunderstrike spam, Rain of Stones, and even sailing Atlantis (Amazing sacreds, great mages, amphibious) Maybe High Tier? C'Tis (C'tis is High-Mid tier in every age honestly) Bottom Tier Marignon (Terrible early and mid game, but if left alone are very dangerous late game) Caelum (No early game) Pangaea (Awful mages)
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Jun 1, 2014 19:01
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On top of that, there are some nations that maybe don't shine much in FFA but are very good in Disciples (disciples rules btw). Nations that are worth checking out in team games include fun options like: Vanarus Jomun/Yomi/Shinu Support Marignon (anyone with a good blood econ and mobility can play excellent support) Basically almost every nation can play a useful role in a team game, even otherwise "Bad" nations, since they typically shine at something specific (except, for example, LA Pan). Important things to keep in mind in team games when choosing nations: 1. Do we have blood sac or easy domspread? 2. Who is our early game/mid game/late game player? 3. How are we going to support that player(s) at their specific stage of the game? 4. When we do reach the endgame how do the other players transition into the proper support role for the endgame player? It is very hard to win a disciples game without some form of domspread, and blood magic is a good thing to consider including on any team regardless of the composition. And even a "bad" nation like LA Marig can play a very important role on a team, as such: 1. Marig has amazing blood sac on h2 and h3 priests 2. Marig is awful in the early and mid game but makes a lot of money, can send crossbows against specific targets, can sail around to disrupt the opponent, and can create a very strong blood economy with its mages to support a variety of strategies. In the late game, Marig can actually become the primary blood powerhouse with kitted Fallen Angels, high level summons, armies of demons, and other goodies, in addition to turning the blood sac into overdrive 3. Marig is basically built for support. Good remote attack options, blood econ, domspread, quick sailing to backstab forts and important objectives, and can simply pump blood slaves over to another player if that's the best route to go. 4. If Marig isn't going to be the endgame powerhouse, the best thing to do is probably to have Marig avoid researching down the blood tree at all and instead ship all the blood slaves to another player who also has blood magic. In the meantime the Marig player should be researching communions and powerful fire magic and using their mobility to strike at the enemy backfield while hoarding Boots of Flying and other tools to give their H3s mobility for throne claiming and other tasks while massing temples and blood saccers. In a team game it's much more important that the nation fit the role well than it is for the nation to be objectively powerful.
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Jun 1, 2014 19:15
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Both EA and MA Pan are very good, both in single MP and disciple MP (assuming you don't get seduced by the thought of having hordes of naked women at your command) and use their regular troops. Solid troop line up, nature/earth mages for buffing said troops, and a few other nifty tricks mean they do well in the early/mid game. White centaurs with one major bless (W or N) can carry you surprisingly far in the first few years.
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Jun 1, 2014 19:40
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Foolish to put EA Ulm at the bottom of the list. Endgame potential barely matters in Dom4, most games don't even get to turn 50. In terms of strength that matters, EA Ulm is probably edging on the Berytos/C'tis level. Just making a very quick list: EA High Tier Hinnom Fomoria Sauro Niefel Mictlan TNN Up there Berytos C'tis Ulm Ur - good gimmick but weak paths Helheim/Vanheim - glamour goes much farther in Dom4 Bottom Caelum - STR changes gutted them Oceania With EA, because there are so many standouts (generally a high-power age), it might be better to move everything down a bit: High Tier - Hinnom, Mictlan, Fomoria Up there - Sauro, Niefel, TNN Bottom - Caelum, Oceania MA High Tier Ermor Mictlan Ashphodel Ashdod Vanheim - e: how could I forget Vanheim. skinshifters alone can carry you to a game win. nevermind top-tier A battlemagic and thugs and glamour stuff. Up there C'tis Eriu Bottom Vanarus? - I can see arguments that they're better than this, but there are no standouts in the troop lineup and the mage lineup is weak and expensive. Not a nation with any real strengths. Arco - Not being able to spam Astrologers hurts them a lot. No troop standouts either. Very one-dimensional nation. Marignon - Just has nothing. LA High Tier Mictlan Ulm Midgard Atlantis Up there TC - cavalry is the best in the game. mages no slouch if a bit costly. can do a lot with just strong troops. C'tis? - improvement in their troop lineup from Dom3 makes up for weakening the Sauromancer thanks to RP changes and STR, and destroying the reanimation engine. still strong, but no longer top tier, possibly no longer up there Bottom Pythium - they just plain suck. candidate for worst nation in the game. Arco - see ma arco, except a worse path selection Caelum - ugh. the other candidate. Pangaea - the mages can't really do anything without support paths, the troops are way too expensive. this is a nation that could easily be turned good in a balance mod. it just has bad numbers. Discussion points: LA Marignon - good arguments to be made that they aren't as bad as they seem, but LA Marignon was arguably the strongest LA nation in Dom3, so the eroding of many of their strengths in the Dom4 iteration seems extreme. that said its not like the troop lineup can't do expansion phase, flaming arrows can hold the early-mid, and you can still do T-strike communions and a blood econ -> storm demons & blood sac. it just takes way more effort for every component. LA Lemuria - a lot of players thought this nation was poo poo at first glance, but people have started to figure it out. not top tier, but no longer in the poophouse. top tier potential if there are more innovations EA/MA TC - I don't think they're half as good as people make them out to be. The troop lineup is generic, the mages are diverse but require research, there's no real standouts other than EA's WotFE. If you're in a duel EA TC is one of the best nations in the game. In FFA, they're middling. EA/MA Pan - like TC, you get one good gimmick (White Centaurs) and adequate support. That doesn't make the nation top tier, it makes it average. MA Sceleria - Another nation that takes forever to get their ball rolling, and once it's rolling it's an easily countered kind of rolling. You aren't going for endgame D magic in Dom4, the game is decided by ~turn 40. Pretty average nation IMO, some strengths, lots of weaknesses. Abysia - when they're strong they're strong. blood magic also goes a long way. I can't really call them bottom tier when it's very easy to just get rolled by high prot troops that you can't counter. That said, that kind of binary power goes both ways. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 19:56
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Just out of curiosity, how would you rank MA Pythium? Between very powerful mages and priests, tower shield-and-javelin-wielding infantry with great morale, powerful heavy cavalry with low encumbrance, easy access to communions and outstanding thugs in the form of Harbingers, they seem like a nation that has it all. The only real flaw I can find is that their sacred unit is pretty crap.
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Jun 1, 2014 20:05
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I'm playing LA Mictlan and it seems like every guide I read emphasizes getting wooden warriors at some point. In my test games though it seems underwhelming, particularly: 1. The wooden warrior buff seesms to be lost when jags go to their second form, so that seems like a giant waste 2. In LA the extra protection doesn't feel like much of a force multiplier since it only gets applied to your human form dudes who die hella quick regardless 3. I just kind of assume I could get better results from level 5 research in a bunch of other schools, especially a faster blood 5 + const Am I missing something? Or is rushing alt 5 more of an EA objective? TheresNoThyme fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 20:13
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