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Ogmius815 posted:Seriously the whole point of herd immunity is that not every individual will personally be immune. The goal is that everyone will be vaccinated. Fighting against it because you fear your kid might turn out autistic is what we are facing. The goal is 100% immunity, and the eradication of these diseases.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:16
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Ogmius815 posted:Well, like I suggested, you could do the same thing we used to do with COs and take measures to ensure that their beliefs are sincere. You know why herd immunity is necessary right? It's because not everyone that gets vaccinated becomes immune. If an extreme minority religion is going to tip the scales (it isn't) herd immunity never should have worked in the first place. People aren't going to change religions because they don't want to vaccinate their kids anyway because it turns out there's more to being a Christian Scientist than "hey don't vaccinate your kids". I think in this conversation you're the one who down at know poo poo about herd immunity.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:18
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Pohl posted:You clearly don't understand this. If I say you are dumb as poo poo, does that negate my argument? To you it probably does, but your statement is beyond dumb. I highlighted the portion of your text that is false. Way more people will fail to be immune because the vaccine didn't make them immune or because they fell through the cracks than because of religion.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:18
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Ogmius815 posted:Way more people will fail to be immune because the vaccine didn't make them immune or because they fell through the cracks than because of religion. So what add to that number needlessly?
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Jun 5, 2014 08:20
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Ogmius815 posted:Way more people will fail to be immune because the vaccine didn't make them immune or because they fell through the cracks than because of religion. Which is why we step up as a society and immunize everyone! Plus, people don't just don't get not immune for whatever reason. What are you even talking about? Pohl fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 08:21
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Ogmius815 posted:Right. That is, again, why we should certainly require almost everyone to get vaccinated. However, people also have a right to practice their religions, regardless of how backwards you believe those religions are. We make exceptions to this when there is a clear harm to public health, but in this ase there is not one, so we default to cletting people practice their religion. I missed this, so I realize I'm bringing up some past posting. I bolded the part where you are wrong. Do you want me to link you to every CDC article I can find, or do you want to stop lying? Also, how drunk are you? Pohl fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 08:31
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Lead Psychiatry posted:Kinda leery on drawing an equivalence between the fun a child can have on a trip anywhere and a visit to take a needle in the arm. Yeah, the kids should be vaccinated sure, but that's a necessity for their own safety. Not so much an international plane ride. Sorry, I was just trying to point out that both scenarios punish children who have no say in the matter, and I was trying to beg the question whether it should be up to the parents if they subject their children to their potentially fatal beliefs, or if society should, in limited circumstances, be able to put its foot down. Ogmius815 posted:If herd immunity can seriously be compromised by such a tiny fraction of people it was worthless anyway. Ogmius815 posted:If an extreme minority religion is going to tip the scales (it isn't) herd immunity never should have worked in the first place. I really don't understand what you're trying to say with these statements. I doubt you're arguing against the concept of herd immunity, so what are you implying? I'd also like to remind you to that populations can be measured in smaller scales than states and nations. Even though a religion may be an "extreme minority" in a country, on a local scale the anti-vacs may easily constitute a high enough percentage to be a threat to public safety.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:31
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Ogmius815 posted:I don't know, but in a world where literally everyone except a tiny minority have to get vaccinated it seems like the risk is probably pretty small.If herd immunity can seriously be compromised by such a tiny fraction of people it was worthless anyway. I've asked you twice now if religious faith should be an acceptable reason not to give your kid antibiotics, because if not then it sure isn't a good reason to deny them other life-saving medical treatments. Care to address this?
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Jun 5, 2014 08:41
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MrGreenShirt posted:I really don't understand what you're trying to say with these statements. I doubt you're arguing against the concept of herd immunity, so what are you implying? I'd also like to remind you to that populations can be measured in smaller scales than states and nations. Even though a religion may be an "extreme minority" in a country, on a local scale the anti-vacs may easily constitute a high enough percentage to be a threat to public safety. He's basically making the same argument that I am, that the amount of people who chose not to vaccinate on the basis of religious conviction is so small that it would not seriously impact herd immunity. For perspective there are only 85,000 Christian Scientists worldwide, and 1.9 Million Jehovah's Witnesses in the US (of whom only a fraction choose not to get vaccinated.) On the other end of the spectrum roughly 0.5% of children are unable to get some, or all of their vaccinations, which in the US alone is several million people. So if we're discussing it as a public health issue, its a drop in the bucket barely above statistical significance. I hate the Jenny McCarthy wackjobs as much as the next person, my niece suffered through months of whooping cough because we had a few outbreaks up here, but a small number of people claiming legitimate religious exemptions are not the problem and are certainly not a major public health issue. I get that people think that these groups are nuts, but I'm actually kind of shocked when I read posts like this: quote:It's simple, if you refuse vaccinate your kids for anything other than a certified lethal reason you lose custody of your kids. Feels like I wandered into the liberal version of a Freep thread. quote:I've asked you twice now if religious faith should be an acceptable reason not to give your kid antibiotics, because if not then it sure isn't a good reason to deny them other life-saving medical treatments. This is a false equivalence. I agree people should not have the choice to deny life saving treatment. Vaccinations are not life saving treatment, except things like spot vaccines such as rabies etc, in which case I refer you to my previous answer. I haven't been vaccinated for tetanus since I was six, but I don't currently have lock jaw. There are plenty of people who go through life without being vaccinated by choice or by chance because of herd immunity. It certainly increases their risk, but that isn't the same thing, and I somehow doubt you are up in arms every time a child gets a sunburn which increases their chances of skin cancer.
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Jun 5, 2014 09:02
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Caros posted:This is a false equivalence. I agree people should not have the choice to deny life saving treatment. Vaccinations are not life saving treatment, except things like spot vaccines such as rabies etc, in which case I refer you to my previous answer. I haven't been vaccinated for tetanus since I was six, but I don't currently have lock jaw. There are plenty of people who go through life without being vaccinated by choice or by chance because of herd immunity. It certainly increases their risk, but that isn't the same thing, and I somehow doubt you are up in arms every time a child gets a sunburn which increases their chances of skin cancer. Well you could make the same argument about antibiotics then. Not getting antibiotics doesn't ensure that you die from the infection, it just increases your risk. Plenty of people get infections and survive without antibiotics. A single sunburn now, eh, stuff happens you can't demand the impossible, just like vaccinating your kid a few months late isn't necessarily terrible. But if a parent refused to use sunscreen or limit their child's sun exposure because it's evil wizardry and their kid was getting severe sunburns as a result, I actually would call that child abuse! Caros posted:Feels like I wandered into the liberal version of a Freep thread. Yes clearly Christians are the poor abused minority here, why vaccination requirements are just like Jim Crow! VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 09:16
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Sure, 1.9 million out of 300 million is a drop in the bucket. But how many of that 1.9 million are in this city or that town where herd immunity could be seriously impacted due to hundreds or thousands of healthy individuals not being vaccinated and becoming a risk? The fact that there have been 19 cases of Measles in NYC in 2014 alone goes to show that even a city that populated can run a reasonable risk of infection. And it didn't help that there was an outbreak last year among the Orthodox Jewish community of Brooklyn who refused vaccinations on religious grounds also. Which I should add is one of the examples why I think those going unvaccinated should be prevented from travel.
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Jun 5, 2014 09:17
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Well that just proves herd immunity is worthless so why vaccinate anyone at all?  MrGreenShirt posted:3,939 women died in 2010 from cervical cancer. Their lives could have been saved had they been vaccinated. Yeah but then those women would end up in hell so it wouldn't be worth it. And even if you don't believe in hell, you'd still be saving those women at the cost of hurting some Christian Scientists' feelings and we just can't have that guilt weighing on our conscience. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 09:18
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Caros posted:This is a false equivalence. I agree people should not have the choice to deny life saving treatment. Vaccinations are not life saving treatment, except things like spot vaccines such as rabies etc, in which case I refer you to my previous answer. I haven't been vaccinated for tetanus since I was six, but I don't currently have lock jaw. There are plenty of people who go through life without being vaccinated by choice or by chance because of herd immunity. It certainly increases their risk, but that isn't the same thing, and I somehow doubt you are up in arms every time a child gets a sunburn which increases their chances of skin cancer. Tetanus is not a disease transmitted between people. Skin cancer is not a disease transmitted between people. Let me ask you, do you consider vaccination for the human papillomavirus a life saving treatment? 3,939 women died in 2010 from cervical cancer. Their lives could have been saved had they been vaccinated.
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Jun 5, 2014 09:35
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I legit don't give a gently caress about religious rights when it comes to the health of a child. To hell with herd immunity, if one child gets sick with a disease that may gave been prevented by a vaccine, gently caress their caregivers and gently caress whatever doctrine prevented them from doing so. If that makes me a liberal freeper or whatever, that's fine, but I cannot abide by literal child abuse.
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Jun 5, 2014 09:58
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The failure rate of the measles vaccine is at least two per cent and may be as high as ten per cent. In the recent outbreaks of measles almost half of the affected people had been vaccinated. So yeah, if less than 100,000 Christian scientists and whatever portion of the Jehovah witnesses decide to abstain are going to compromise her immunity, chances are it was already compromised. So you end up with a needless violation of religious liberty. I know that's fine with you because you're a goony goon goon who hates religion, but that's not how this country works.
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Jun 5, 2014 12:49
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The 2-10% claim sounds like a huge case of bullshit since the U.S. vaccinates the majority of newborns (Best I can find is around 75% of almost four million newborns in 2010) on a yearly basis and only get a few hundred confirmed cases since the 90s. But the number keeps rising due to anti-vaxxers, not half being from failed vaccinations. And you're still advocating for an increase in risk for no other purpose than faith that has no benefit at all. Lead Psychiatry fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 13:27
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The problem is that religious people tend to congregate together in communities, leading to concentrations of non immunized people, which lets diseases fester and survive when otherwise the over all population immunity would lead to them eventually dying off. A good example is a megachurch near DFW that lead to a measles outbreak in it's community. IF the religiously exempt people were spread among the population evenly like people who's vaccinations doesn't take it wouldn't be a much of a problem. Sadly, this is not the case, so the needs of society trump people's right to be idiots about their health. Do what we did with integration and send the 101st airborne to these places and get everyone their shots.
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Jun 5, 2014 13:38
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It's not just religious communities that are at risk here - here on the west coast it's groups of people that simply don't accept the science of vaccines because they "aren't natural", are made by "big pharma" and so on. To add to the confusion, those folks simply claim a religious or personal exemption to get out of vaccination all together. Washington state used to be one of the worst in the nation because all it took was a simple form.
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Jun 5, 2014 14:32
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It seems weird that people are saying to "treat anti-vaccine people like conscientious objectors". You know what we did when we were drafting and people professed to be conscientious objectors? They either got sent off to the war to be medics/cooks or other non-combat positions; or for the truly hardcore they were required to stay in government service on domestic territory for a longer period of time than a draft term. To treat anti-vaccine people like COs would essentially involve isolating them from the population until they gave in and got vaccinated.
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Jun 5, 2014 14:34
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Ogmius815 posted:So you end up with a needless violation of religious liberty. I know that's fine with you because you're a goony goon goon who hates religion, but that's not how this country works. No I hate dead children. I'm totally cool with your religion until you decide it means your kids don't get medical care, then gently caress you, take care of your kids. And it's already been pointed out to you that this country doesn't give a gently caress about religious freedom if it's non-Christians because "you can't take psycedelics  think of the children !"Actual dead kids because some Christians totally had brunch with God and He told them over mimosas that He has a hardon for 17th-Century medicine though, meh. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 14:43
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Caros posted:He's basically making the same argument that I am, that the amount of people who chose not to vaccinate on the basis of religious conviction is so small that it would not seriously impact herd immunity. For perspective there are only 85,000 Christian Scientists worldwide, and 1.9 Million Jehovah's Witnesses in the US (of whom only a fraction choose not to get vaccinated.) On the other end of the spectrum roughly 0.5% of children are unable to get some, or all of their vaccinations, which in the US alone is several million people. This still leaves the question of why behavior that would be catastrophically destructive if everyone did it is OK just because at this particular moment most people are not doing it, especially when a response to a change in demographics would be hindered politically by the very demographic shift that's causing the problem.
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Jun 5, 2014 14:58
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Nope I'm wrong. There's like. 100,000 CS in the country.
Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 14:59
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Ogmius815 posted:Oh man did I say less than 100,000 Christian scientists? Actually less than 1500. This sounds like a worthwhile battle guys. Once you use a 'good' excuse to do the wrong thing (let kids get fuckin' polio) its not long until you're using bad excuses.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:04
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Ogmius815 posted:The failure rate of the measles vaccine is at least two per cent and may be as high as ten per cent. In the recent outbreaks of measles almost half of the affected people had been vaccinated. So yeah, if less than 100,000 Christian scientists and whatever portion of the Jehovah witnesses decide to abstain are going to compromise her immunity, chances are it was already compromised. So you end up with a needless violation of religious liberty. I know that's fine with you because you're a goony goon goon who hates religion, but that's not how this country works. I'm a fuckin Jew you mouth breather this isn't some dumb internet atheist thing this is a 'this thing literally puts kids in danger without their consent because you think something stupid' thing.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:23
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I don't care if it does make me look like a goony-goon-goon, I will gladly dance a jig on the grave of religious freedom if it means some stupid rear end in a top hat parents can no longer helplessly shrug their shoulders as they put another kid in the ground that died from a disease that they could have avoided with a trivial amount of effort.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:42
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I'm a fuckin Jew you mouth breather this isn't some dumb internet atheist thing this is a 'this thing literally puts kids in danger without their consent because you think something stupid' thing. Yeah, I just don't see what's so difficult about this issue. Not vaccinating harms, maims and kills people, primarily children. These diseases cause intense suffering, render people deaf, sterile or dead in extreme cases. It's not an extremist view to call parents who refuse to vaccinate their children child abusers.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:44
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I'm all for religious freedom. Persecuting people for believing in the wrong God is terrible, and people should be left free to worship their faith. Randomly insulting innocuous religious people with some smug r/atheism burns is also crude and dickish and I don't support that. But for some reason, some religious people take this religion freedom and claim that it means that they get to run society and that their fairy tales should trump facts and evidence. And then it's perfectly fine to tell them to shut the gently caress up and leave science to the experts. Hey have fun with your religion and all, but if you think that because Zeus told you to not vaccinate your kids/not educate women/not give your kids antibiotics/that slavery is totes cool/to stone your daughter for being raped/gays aren't people then no sorry, you believe in magic and your super dumbass brand of magic doesn't determine reality no matter how much you arrogantly insist that God is your best buddy so you know better than medical science. But if your worship isn't hurting anyone else hey, awesome, go for it. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 16:03
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Caros posted:There are plenty of people who go through life without being vaccinated by choice or by chance because of herd immunity. Except that if enough people do this thinking 'I'll just rely on herd immunity and I'll be fine', eventually the herd immunity falls away because there isn't a high enough percentage of immunized or healthy people to maintain it. So yeah sure it doesn't seem like a big deal when one guy or one handful of people do it, the thing is that's always what such people think and those start to add up until eventually it's a lot more people than is safe to have not immunized hanging out in a community, not realizing they're all at risk. In fact, that's kind of the exact problem we're having with all these nearly-gone diseases making a comeback. Herd immunity has been compromised. Maintaining it is a responsibility that each individual is on the hook for; deciding not to do it on the basis that the rest of us will pick up the slack and keep the community healthy is both selfish (let those other people take the 'risk' of vaccinating and you get all the benefits) and foolhardy, and only serves to possibly compromise the whole system. StrangersInTheNight fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 16:19
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:The problem is that religious people tend to congregate together in communities, leading to concentrations of non immunized people, which lets diseases fester and survive when otherwise the over all population immunity would lead to them eventually dying off. A good example is a megachurch near DFW that lead to a measles outbreak in it's community. IF the religiously exempt people were spread among the population evenly like people who's vaccinations doesn't take it wouldn't be a much of a problem. Yep. quote:Among the recent outbreaks are: http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/a/religious-vaccine-exemptions.htm All of these were from religions which don't actually prohibit vaccination, but these sects did.
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Jun 5, 2014 17:02
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Ogmius815 posted:Nope I'm wrong. There's like. 100,000 CS in the country. And are they uniformly distributed through the whole country, or do they tend to cluster geographically? Because a big cluster of unvaccinated kids really isn't good.
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Jun 5, 2014 17:20
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Who What Now posted:I don't care if it does make me look like a goony-goon-goon, I will gladly dance a jig on the grave of religious freedom if it means some stupid rear end in a top hat parents can no longer helplessly shrug their shoulders as they put another kid in the ground that died from a disease that they could have avoided with a trivial amount of effort. The thing is that it's not really a violation of their religious freedom. The only one being affected by the vaccinations is the child and they haven't signed up for any religion nor do they have the capacity to do so. That's the reason that Jehova's witnesses don't get to deny their young children live saving transfusions in the US. It should be the same for vaccines.
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Jun 5, 2014 17:40
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StrangersInTheNight posted:Except that if enough people do this thinking 'I'll just rely on herd immunity and I'll be fine', eventually the herd immunity falls away because there isn't a high enough percentage of immunized or healthy people to maintain it. So yeah sure it doesn't seem like a big deal when one guy or one handful of people do it, the thing is that's always what such people think and those start to add up until eventually it's a lot more people than is safe to have not immunized hanging out in a community, not realizing they're all at risk. And I am once again going to make it clear, I believe in mandatory vaccinations. I think that the Jenny McCarthy anti vaccination crowd should have to suck it or be excluded from society. For the record I am also in favour of saying that these Christian scientists and so forth should be excluded from public schools because they don't have their vax cards and so forth. What are I am not in favour of is the argument that has been made in this thread that we should take away the children of people who have a real faith based belief that God doesn't want them to vaccinate. The number of these people is so small that it won't make a real dent in herd immunity, they are in a tiny minority compared to the millions who cannot get vaccinated for other reasons. And as I mentioned earlier it's a really lovely Hill to die on, since the optics of taking a child from her mother because of her religious beliefs will feed the persecution complex and in my view will lead to more idiots trying not to get vaccinated simply out of spite from what the gubberment wants.
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Jun 5, 2014 17:51
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Caros posted:And I am once again going to make it clear, I believe in mandatory vaccinations. I think that the Jenny McCarthy anti vaccination crowd should have to suck it or be excluded from society. If you do not vaccinate a child, you are a negligent and abusive parent. It doesn't matter what your reason is, it doesn't matter whether it is your deeply held conviction that God is against vaccinations, or that you deeply and truly believe Jenny McCarthy would be mad at you for vaccinating or that you deeply and truly believe Zeus would be peeved at you if you had a vaccination. It is a health hazard, not just for the unvaccinated child, but for the community at large. Yes it may be a miniscule percentage of the population that is putting their children at risk, but that is irrelevant. The children have the right to live without Measles, Mumps and Rubella. Agreeing to any exceptions to childhood vaccinations, that are not grounded in the potential for serious medical complications, is tantamount to infecting the child yourself. You are arguing in favor of childhood disease. I have more respect for the people who believe that vaccinations cause autism then the "God says we can't" people, because at least they are arguably doing what they believe is in their child's best interest rather than appeasing their invisible dictator from a book. Both groups are still horrifically wrong, vaccines are the BEST preventative medicine we as a species have ever come up with. If you refuse to vaccinate a child you should not be allowed to continue abusing them through neglect. Madmarker fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 18:08
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Caros posted:What are I am not in favour of is the argument that has been made in this thread that we should take away the children of people who have a real faith based belief that God doesn't want them to vaccinate. We take away children who are beaten, who are starved, who are raped and who are not taken care of. A kid who isn't vaccinated is being exposed to dangerous yet easily preventable diseases is being harmed, and as a society we need to protect them. quote:The number of these people is so small that it won't make a real dent in herd immunity, they are in a tiny minority compared to the millions who cannot get vaccinated for other reasons. And as I mentioned earlier it's a really lovely Hill to die on, since the optics of taking a child from her mother because of her religious beliefs will feed the persecution complex and in my view will lead to more idiots trying not to get vaccinated simply out of spite from what the gubberment wants. Two very serious problems with this. 1. You keep ignoring all of the folks who claim a religious exemption for the sake of avoiding the vaccinations in the first place. These well educated and generally liberal enclaves on the west coast aren't like the Amish communities in the east. They are avoiding vaccines because of a naturalistic fallacy, not for religious reasons. 2. You need to save herd immunity for those who cannot medically have a vaccination. People with compromised immune systems, those too young to have the vaccines in the first place, those with rare allergies, that sort of thing. Allowing more people to avoid vaccines because they lack an understanding of modern medicine puts at risk communities in danger. And for what, political capital? That's bullshit.
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Jun 5, 2014 18:25
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Caros posted:The number of these people is so small that it won't make a real dent in herd immunity, they are in a tiny minority compared to the millions who cannot get vaccinated for other reasons. And as I mentioned earlier it's a really lovely Hill to die on, since the optics of taking a child from her mother because of her religious beliefs will feed the persecution complex and in my view will lead to more idiots trying not to get vaccinated simply out of spite from what the gubberment wants. As other people already pointed out, they're not distributed evenly and often cluster in small communities. Someone even posted examples of people suffering from diseases that can be vaccinated against in such communities. This sort of renders the "but they don't exist in enough numbers to matter" argument null, and that's really the only argument that you and Ogmius815 have.
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Jun 5, 2014 18:35
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Ytlaya posted:As other people already pointed out, they're not distributed evenly and often cluster in small communities. Someone even posted examples of people suffering from diseases that can be vaccinated against in such communities. This sort of renders the "but they don't exist in enough numbers to matter" argument null, and that's really the only argument that you and Ogmius815 have. Actually I still have the religious freedom argument, that whether you think these people are stupid or not (I do) that it does heavily impose on their freedom. As an aside, are you in favour of forced flu vaccinations for adults in these religions? Or for everyone in general really. My decision not to get a flu vaccination could kill someone's child or grandparent after all.
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Jun 5, 2014 19:44
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Caros posted:Actually I still have the religious freedom argument, that whether you think these people are stupid or not (I do) that it does heavily impose on their freedom. At least those people genuinely believe they're saving their kids' souls or whatever. You're defending letting kids get polio on the basis of not hurting their parents' feelings. Getting a shot is not an imposition on freedom. They can still go to church and worship however they want. They can be idiots and refuse to get blood transfusions too, but they can't deprive their minor children of them. Do you not see the difference between me refusing medical care for myself and me denying it to a powerless child?
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Jun 5, 2014 19:50
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Caros posted:Actually I still have the religious freedom argument, that whether you think these people are stupid or not (I do) that it does heavily impose on their freedom. Yea, that's not a freedom you're entitled to. It doesn't matter if your stupid-rear end religion dictates that you have to have unvaccinated kids or pour acid on your daughters face for looking at a boy. Neither are acceptable in the least.
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Jun 5, 2014 19:50
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I'm really hoping some enterprising politician will push forward something that moves to consider not vaccinating your children as child abuse. What's happening to all the kids who recently started contracting preventable illnesses? Are they dying, or are their parents biting the bullet and changing their minds about vaccinations? Is there anything coming from the parents of children who are getting sick after having not been vaccinated?
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Jun 5, 2014 19:58
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Caros posted:Actually I still have the religious freedom argument, that whether you think these people are stupid or not (I do) that it does heavily impose on their freedom.
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Jun 5, 2014 19:58
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