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26 games in 4.5 hours? You're averaging just over 10 minutes a game? You've got to decide whether you just want to have fun, or get strong at the game. Both are valid goals... in fact, I'd kind of recommend that you just have fun with it. But in that case, stop worrying about rank. If you want to get strong, then you need to slow the gently caress down and review your games for starters, probably play a mix of correspondence and blitz games to work on both analysis and instinct, devote a lot more time per week, do some simple tsumego whenever you have a few minutes (but not enough time to play) and then a little bit of studying books or pro games, couple of hours a week, no more, unless you're doing it at times that it's not taking away from playing. Playing four hours per week of ultrablitz and spending a similar amount of time reading books isn't going to get you very far strength-wise, but if that's what you enjoy, then do that, because none of us are ever going to be pros. For reference, it took me about a year to get to shodan, but I was insane about the game. I'd say probably an average of 3-4 hours playing and an hour of study/theory per day over that time. xopods fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 03:14
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AdorableStar posted:I counted the times of all the 19x19 games I played this week (And by that I mean since last Wedsnday.) I have approxamately 4 and a half hours spent playing over 26 games (I don't spend enough time per move). Maybe that's not enough, but it's not just my interest to play play play all the time and do nothing else - that's not what I like to do particularly. Yeah, probably only count rated games you're playing seriously. Definitely the other ones are fine, and while playing seriously 8 hours a day is the best way to improve, its probably just better to do whatever keeps your interest. The most unique way I've ever seen is two guys at my club got pretty drat good by watching high dan games on Tygem and refuting variations of moves between themselves the whole time. But they were seriously obsessed with it and spent tons of time doing this.
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Jun 5, 2014 03:14
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Okay, new question that is/isn't related to rank. Have you noticed that people who have been at one rank for over a year play completely differently from those whose graphs are still going up? It's not that they're slightly weaker or anything, but that they just seem to throw stones everywhere and hope to live or get through it somehow or something. Okay, here's a free game I played against a 7k. http://eidogo.com/#1yrADrCVJ Maybe you can notice something about how much time I take per move. If I were to play against Hypertor or Tonberryto, I know that they wouldn't do specifically weird crap or things like approaching the 3-4 of the low Chinese. I used this game to test what happens if you leave a weak group to take a large point and I keep attacking.Eventually, I realised how much influence I had and he ended up escaping anyways.
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Jun 5, 2014 07:16
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xopods posted:26 games in 4.5 hours? You're averaging just over 10 minutes a game? drat, i knew I'd never be a pro but I thought i could make it to dan level in a year or two. no way i have hours per day to devote to go, though :'( not that i care about rank, but it just seems that the game is way more fun when you know what you're doing. and i take 1d to be the level where you can start to say you know what youre doing
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Jun 5, 2014 07:28
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AdorableStar posted:Okay, new question that is/isn't related to rank. Have you noticed that people who have been at one rank for over a year play completely differently from those whose graphs are still going up? Yeah, it's pretty common. My impression is that they never got some of the basics down and just rely on fighting skills. xopods posted:26 games in 4.5 hours? You're averaging just over 10 minutes a game? khel is the sonic of baduk
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Jun 5, 2014 07:40
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I'm getting owned by a 7d right now. He was nice enough to give me a 65 point reverse komi, but that means he just has to try harder to kill me everywhere. And, I really think my average per game should be 20 minutes. I'm really trying to kick the habit of taking 1-5 seconds per move which this 7d game is helping.
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Jun 5, 2014 07:58
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I beat the 7d by 7 points.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:30
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AdorableStar posted:Okay, new question that is/isn't related to rank. Have you noticed that people who have been at one rank for over a year play completely differently from those whose graphs are still going up? It's not that they're slightly weaker or anything, but that they just seem to throw stones everywhere and hope to live or get through it somehow or something. Okay, here's a free game I played against a 7k. Approaching the 3-4 in a low Chinese is weird?  There are 125 occurrences in professional play according to Eidogo pattern search, 119 of which have no preparatory move on the lower side. That's of specifically the one-space low approach. 34 of the one-space high, and 5 of the two-space high.This is the problem with playing little and studying lots, you end up with the impression that books teach you the right moves and that things you haven't seen in a book yet are weird and wrong. xopods fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 12:52
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Uncle Jam posted:Yeah, probably only count rated games you're playing seriously. Definitely the other ones are fine, and while playing seriously 8 hours a day is the best way to improve, its probably just better to do whatever keeps your interest. Is there not a Go parable about someone becoming so obsessed with the game he stopped eating and died? I am sure I read that in - The Theory and Practice of GO, O.Korschelt.
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Jun 5, 2014 13:09
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Direction of play problem from my latest game with oiseaux, which should wrap up soon, whereupon I will review as usual. We've just completed a somewhat unorthodox sequence in the top left. Black has essentially tenukied twice in response to threats against his lone stone on the left side. Is it now time to defend it, and if so, how? Or should Black continue to play elsewhere, content that White probably needs two more moves to capture it outright? If so, what's the biggest area of the board for Black, and what's the worst White can do to him on the left? xopods fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 14:57
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I have no answers, but I *love* the question because it in itself tells me what things I should be thinking about at all times. In other words, can't wait for responses.  Okay I lied. From what is probably a 30k, my gut is that the stone is still not trivially dead and therefore probably play somewhere in the lower left to stop white from gaining much territory quickly.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:07
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Are you talking about invading the lower left e.g. at C3 or C4? Or making another extension along the lower side to F3/G3? Or reducing around E6, or trying to start sabaki by attaching to C6 on one side or another... or what?
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Jun 5, 2014 15:26
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Again, remember that I'm not speaking from actually having good reasoning for anything, but instinct would be another extension to F3/G3, no need for an invasion while white is tied up trying to capture in the top left.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:28
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That's certainly not the worst place to play. A move around there is big and would cross the mind of any good player, but it's probably not the biggest right now. The main problem with it is that it aims at building an expansive position in the lower right, but all of Black's stones there are on the third line. If you're going to make a wide position, you want a way to make it tall as well, or else you're being inefficient. If you could somehow get F3 and F5 and P8 (and, ideally, P5), then you'd have one hell of a double wing moyo going. But the odds of White allowing you to get all the necessary points to make that happen are 0% unless you can somehow arrange to get most of them in sente.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:44
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Super cool. I'll let others suggest alternate lines/places/bigs, but thanks for the explanations.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:58
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Alternatively, couldn't B make a move at K/L17 to strengthen the top and reinforce the top-right corner? Or would that be a waste? You'd be condemning that lone stone, which is a lot of influence for W, but you could potentially gain some ground as well.
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Jun 5, 2014 16:00
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xopods posted:
Oh really? Because to me white E10 pretty much kills it. I would need a shitton of luck to make it survive in any good way. Observing this, with my simpleton mind I'd say black E10 would be my move. It also gives a little pressure on white's group above. And some kind of way to the center? idk
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Jun 5, 2014 16:13
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Symbolic Butt posted:Oh really? Because to me white E10 pretty much kills it. I would need a shitton of luck to make it survive in any good way. The important thing to realize is that individual stones, unless they are cutting stones, are basically meaningless... it's the presence in the area which is important. So yeah, E10 is severe if Black insists on saving that specific stone in a heavy manner. But he could answer E10 with something like D7 and sacrifice the original stone if necessary for the good of the group. The only value C10 has is in preventing White from making the entire left side into territory. The stone itself can be discarded as long as Black maintains a presence in the left side in the process. Or Black can just continue to leave it there if he's not confident of making sabaki, or doesn't think it's urgent to do so. Just because the stone can't be pulled out directly and immediately doesn't mean it's cleanly captured. Even if D7 isn't the sort of thing that's in your playbook, it's clear that the stone is merely dead-for-now and not dead-forever. That said, E10 is not a bad move for Black. Still not my move though, as it's a bit too slow. xopods fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 16:30
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xopods posted:Approaching the 3-4 in a low Chinese is weird? To clarify, the game I was looking at with Khel (and I assume he means this) at least had white immediately attacking the inside like so, not the outside at N4 etc  Absolutely no other moves on the board past whatever white did with his first two, nirensei probably. I only get 7 results for this in my own Kombilo database and black wins 5 of them. 
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Jun 5, 2014 16:33
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areyoucontagious posted:Alternatively, couldn't B make a move at K/L17 to strengthen the top and reinforce the top-right corner? Or would that be a waste? You'd be condemning that lone stone, which is a lot of influence for W, but you could potentially gain some ground as well. It'd be nice to get a stone on the top side, yes, especially because of the cut at G16. It doesn't seem big enough to me to play there directly, though. It's not that urgent for White to defend the cut, so you're not getting to occupy that big point in sente.
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Jun 5, 2014 16:42
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WuChou posted:To clarify, the game I was looking at with Khel (and I assume he means this) at least had white immediately attacking the inside like so, not the outside at N4 etc It's still not a weird move. Maybe it doesn't come up often anymore in pro play because they've decided it's suboptimal, but that just means it's maybe a quarter of a point worse than some other options. If it were clearly bad, it wouldn't come up at all. DDKs should basically not study fuseki beyond "fourth line is for influence, third line is for territory," because it leads to thinking your opponent is playing badly and you should have a big advantage, when in fact, any loss incurred by the moves is of a magnitude that's made completely irrelevant by the swings that inevitably occur in the middlegame for DDKs. The fuseki seems more important than it is. Quite often if you're comparing one reasonable move to another reasonable move, it's the equivalent of worrying about whether an endgame move is worth 1 1/3 points or 1 2/3 points. xopods fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 16:47
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xopods posted:DDKs should basically not study fuseki beyond "fourth line is for influence, third line is for territory," because it leads to thinking your opponent is playing badly and you should have a big advantage, when in fact, any loss incurred by the moves is of a magnitude that's made completely irrelevant by the swings that inevitably occur in the middlegame for DDKs. I don't disagree with this at all honestly but I personally think in this case it is a weird/bad move to be playing right at move 6. I'd argue that coming up 7 times out of 3300 games where black plays low chinese with a majority of the games being the same guy trying it and losing all but two against guys that still haven't made the 9d cut is about as good as not coming up at all. Then to boot it's also the only move 6 approach on the inside of the 3-4 side that even turns up. One- and two-space high on the inside both turn up nothing without play elsewhere first. I also was curious what you were finding pro-wise because Eidogo doesn't appear to support color locking or restricting who has next move. I turned to Kombilo because a ton of my searches on Eidogo that said this or similar positions came up early in them were actually games where black had a 4-4 3-4 setup and white approached, then black pincers at S9, or actually black approaching a white low chinese type setup at move 40, etc. which aren't really quite the same. I do wish Eidogo had a few more search options. That said, fuseki is in fact overrated, and reminds me we should all try some Tibetan Go games some time.
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Jun 5, 2014 18:09
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Random thoughts on xopods' direction of play problem: My gut instinct as black would be to play P9, which leans on white's relatively thin right side group while enlarging black's influence in the lower right. I would leave the black stone on the left alone for now and treat it as light. This is without really looking in-depth, and I'm really bad at this style of direction of play problem, so I look forward to xopods sharing more of his thoughts. One thing I would be worried about white doing is playing something like M17. Black might naturally respond somewhere around R16 or else his corner group starts getting into danger, but now white can start to harass black with e.g. E11, and he is starting to form his own moyo.
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Jun 5, 2014 18:56
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xopods posted:Approaching the 3-4 in a low Chinese is weird? Yet you're sure it's a good move and that we should be making it? Besides, I said weird crap or things like. I didn't say that it was weird. Maybe you'd want to actually read. xopods posted:Direction of play problem from my latest game with oiseaux, which should wrap up soon, whereupon I will review as usual. D2 and p5. P5 because "I like my short double wing"  even though k5 and p8 probably do the job better. And at least p8 has some effect on the white group above it.
AdorableStar fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 19:33
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I'm having difficulties with reading positions out in my head. I have to have a board I can play around with. Is there a good way to practice reading out without relying on a physical (or online) board?
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Jun 5, 2014 20:21
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areyoucontagious posted:Is there a good way to practice reading out without relying on a physical (or online) board? I'm pretty sure to practice reading you have to read, and there's no other place to do that but on a goban, physical or online. Maybe you could try some elementary life and death tsumego?
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Jun 5, 2014 20:30
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AdorableStar posted:I'm pretty sure to practice reading you have to read, and there's no other place to do that but on a goban, physical or online. Maybe you could try some elementary life and death tsumego? That's what I'm starting on right now. Up until now I've only read a little bit of a book I have, really no life&death problems.
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Jun 5, 2014 20:34
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xopods posted:Direction of play problem from my latest game with oiseaux, which should wrap up soon, whereupon I will review as usual. Been looking at this for a bit I'm really not sure what I'd do as black here. I kind of like D7 straight up but it doesn't feel like time for it and isn't much faster than E10. Was looking around L17 but I think I'd play S16 instead, and solidify that corner a bit while threatening to attack the white group on the right. Q10 attachment is something I'd consider to try to lean on white and build up the lower right since the position is super low but somewhat ripe for building on. None of these really sing to me though. Would probably settle for S16 because I'm territorial and treat the stone on the left lightly.
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Jun 5, 2014 21:01
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WuChou posted:I also was curious what you were finding pro-wise because Eidogo doesn't appear to support color locking or restricting who has next move. I turned to Kombilo because a ton of my searches on Eidogo that said this or similar positions came up early in them were actually games where black had a 4-4 3-4 setup and white approached, then black pincers at S9, or actually black approaching a white low chinese type setup at move 40, etc. which aren't really quite the same. I do wish Eidogo had a few more search options. I was just doing a pattern search for that half of the board, basically. I'm sure some of the results were with colors reversed and/or arising from 5-3 tenuki joseki or whatever. I don't disagree that it probably isn't White's best plan, but to me, it definitely doesn't merit being called "weird." There's nothing so unnatural about it. I mean, if I played low Chinese against another mid dan and he immediately approached, it wouldn't strike me as particularly bad or out of line. Anyway, sorry if I offended you, Khel, I was just surprised that you're so hung up on fuseki orthodoxy that this is the sort of move that would surprise you. People do all sorts of much crazier poo poo well into the dan ranks. You can get away with almost anything in Go if you have the fighting strength to back it up, which is again why it's important to play a lot. ThePineapple posted:My gut instinct as black would be to play P9, which leans on white's relatively thin right side group while enlarging black's influence in the lower right. I would leave the black stone on the left alone for now and treat it as light. This is without really looking in-depth, and I'm really bad at this style of direction of play problem, so I look forward to xopods sharing more of his thoughts. P9's a good point. Another move I would have considered myself, as Black. Not what I think I would actually end up playing, but a strong candidate. Does a lot for balance of power in the centre and has good continuations both against the white group on the right, and in terms of expanding the moyo along the bottom. M17 is a big point for White as well, later on, but I don't think it's big enough yet. It induces S16 and then White has to worry about his right side group a bit. AdorableStar posted:D2 and p5. P5 because "I like my short double wing" P5 is the kind of move I'd consider weird. It's unnatural to build up the centre of a moyo before you build up the edges. That doesn't mean you can't experiment with it, but you're likely to find you get flattened out on both sides and P5 ends up not doing much. If you build up the wings first, then if White enters at P5 himself, you have a target for attack. Whereas with a capping move on the wings, it's pretty hard to attack because you only have support on one side. What continuation are you envisioning from D2? WuChou posted:Been looking at this for a bit I'm really not sure what I'd do as black here. I kind of like D7 straight up but it doesn't feel like time for it and isn't much faster than E10. Was looking around L17 but I think I'd play S16 instead, and solidify that corner a bit while threatening to attack the white group on the right. Q10 attachment is something I'd consider to try to lean on white and build up the lower right since the position is super low but somewhat ripe for building on. None of these really sing to me though. Would probably settle for S16 because I'm territorial and treat the stone on the left lightly. I hadn't considered D7 straight up. It's probably one of the better moves you can find from a straight defensive standpoint, but the problem is that it's going to induce White to get strong in the lower left, whereas ideally you want to leave yourself the chance to exploit the thinness of the large shimari. I don't know about Q10. Seems like it might be a thank you move. S16 is a patient move, and another one I like. It's similar to, but better than what oiseaux played in the actual game, which was R15, White S14, Black S15.
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Jun 5, 2014 22:09
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Anyway, now that most of the regular goons have offered their suggestions, here's mine. Which may or may not be objectively correct, of course... dan or not, I'm still just an amateur, so you should always take me with a grain of salt: I would play the two-space jump instead of the more obvious one-space jump. My reasoning: (1) Although White can't kill outright in a single move, the large knight's move/shoulder hit I played in the game (see below) is very severe. I would not feel comfortable allowing that as Black, so I think you need to defend, even though there are an abundance of big points in other parts of the board. (2) We have a few lines of space below, so we can afford to play lightly. If White tries to strike through this bigger jump, it's easy for us to let C10 go and make shape for the group with very little regret. Capturing C10 on a small scale makes White overconcentrated anyway. (3) The one extra line makes a huge difference in terms of coordinating with an eventual cut at A, if White chooses to start a fight. If stones start to spill downwards from there, F10 is in a likely place to become directly involved, whereas E10 is probably just a little too far left. Note that downwards is the natural way for the fight to go, because that's the side where White is already strong; he's going to want to push the cutting stones down rather than right. (4) Moving out into the centre more quickly increases our chances of getting something large-scale going with moves around B and/or C. ------ As for the actual game, here's how it went. Anyone have any good ideas for Black to handle W4? Personally, I think Black's best option is just to leave it for aji, because I don't see any skilful way of defending it without giving White overwhelming thickness. 
xopods fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 22:28
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Just want to say me and xops finished a cornerstone game today; don't think it's worth a review but there were some heavy SDK lessons learned in the process. Thankyou xops, look forward to our next one  You all should offer him to a game because he has much to teach. (Although the above positions tell the story of our fuseki)Black should leave it for aji, for sure. Black surely can only extend along the southern baseline? o.m. 94 fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 23:30
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xopods posted:I don't know about Q10. Seems like it might be a thank you move. I think this is right about Q10, looking at it again it doesn't really get anything that P9 doesn't and P9 leaves the chance to attack white's group still. I also like your two-space jump better than just going to D7 right now if black is just going to go ahead and start moving over here. I think I'd like D7 better if black could mess with the lower left in sente, then follow with it after. For black after W4 in the next game sequence, that's rough. I'd leave it for now but if black really wants to make a play, I feel like he can make something of C11. There's room to jump to B7 for some shape, and if white does something normal like solidly extending up to D12 black escapes at F11. White taking F11 in response to C11 feels sharp though. I think black may be able to still work something out but it's a messy fight and I don't think any of this is necessarily wise or worth getting into for black in this position.
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Jun 5, 2014 23:59
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These days I enjoy reviewing games more than playing them anyway, so don't worry, a review is forthcoming. Also, it was a better game than you give it credit for; I may have pulled ahead earlier than I did in the last one, but you did a good job of shaking at the end and had me legitimately worried that I might have blundered a group for a few moves at one point. As for Black's next move in the final diagram, F3 is certainly tempting, but White has so much central power I don't feel comfortable playing yet another third line move. Also, you don't want to induce moves that are further going to mitigate the aji of that stone on the left. If you'd just played S16 in the top right instead of the kick-and-block sequence, I'd really like P9 now. But as it stands, having strengthened that White group, I don't think P9 threatens enough of a follow-up. During the actual game I didn't feel like you were doing badly to this point, but I have to admit it's tough to find a good move for Black. I think maybe the thing to do is just cut at G16 immediately and see what happens. If White fights too strongly, the aji on the left comes into play. If White gives way a little, then you establish a presence in the centre, which you direly need at this point, having mostly low stones.
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Jun 6, 2014 00:03
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WuChou posted:For black after W4 in the next game sequence, that's rough. I'd leave it for now but if black really wants to make a play, I feel like he can make something of C11. There's room to jump to B7 for some shape, and if white does something normal like solidly extending up to D12 black escapes at F11. White taking F11 in response to C11 feels sharp though. I think black may be able to still work something out but it's a messy fight and I don't think any of this is necessarily wise or worth getting into for black in this position. C11 can probably find life somehow, especially if White isn't trying too hard to kill, which he shouldn't be. But you really don't want to fall into the death spiral of living small but giving your opponent monstrous thickness so you then have to invade deep and live small again and give him even more thickness and do it again and again until "oh god I have to keep nine separate groups alive to win?" Unless you're Cho U, in which case do exactly that. The higher level you get, the better people are at using thickness effectively, so you basically don't ever want to give the other guy a wall spanning an entire side of the board. You need to make sure there are always defects in the other guy's shape, unless you're sure you've got enough territory to avoid fighting and come out ahead, which is basically never the case at this stage of the game. So yeah, we're in agreement that once we've reached this point we just have to abandon C10 for the time being. If White plays D10 to finish it off entirely, we've basically traded one stone for four moves elsewhere, which is a pretty good deal even if it's made White super ridiculously strong on that side, while if he leaves it, it's the one chink in his armor that we can try to aim at in future action. It's hard, though, because we still want to invade the lower left at some point, and it's hard to do so without letting White swallow up the left side on a scale that eliminates most of our options for reactivating C10.
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Jun 6, 2014 00:22
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xopods posted:That's certainly not the worst place to play. A move around there is big and would cross the mind of any good player, but it's probably not the biggest right now. I gotta second G3, the opportunity to limit white's enclosure is the biggest thing on the board. If there's a problem with the three stones being too low, it's with K3, not G3. Jumping to F10 is cute, but there's nothing to it - c10 is out of trouble but that's about it. I think helping that stone is going about things in the wrong order, since there is no way for white to profit from attacking it until he's scaled up his position on the bottom, which he would do by (wait for it) playing something around G3. I think the G3 area is bigger than anything involving that black stone, which as you've noted can't be captured in a single move anyway, and the top right, where white is reasonably settled and s16 and l17 are almost miai.
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Jun 6, 2014 22:01
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I don't disagree... the bottom side is very very big. What do you do after B G3, W D9 though? P9 maybe?
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Jun 6, 2014 23:33
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xopods posted:I don't disagree... the bottom side is very very big. I'd say k5 and fix the sin of k3. If black played P9, white would come in with a big fat invasion somewhere knowing that he can use his group on the side for aji to help make it work. With the corner still unresolved, it's not like he's committed to having side territory...
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Jun 6, 2014 23:41
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quote:JANDL: http://www.google.com/doodles/honinbo-shusakus-185th-birthday Can we have a :shusaku: emote?
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Jun 7, 2014 00:43
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Under 15 posted:I'd say k5 and fix the sin of k3. If black played P9, white would come in with a big fat invasion somewhere knowing that he can use his group on the side for aji to help make it work. With the corner still unresolved, it's not like he's committed to having side territory... K5's awful, I think. Like I said about Khel's P5 suggestion, we don't build up the middle of our position before the edges. If we're going to continue on the lower side, surely we play G5 if we're being single-minded, or E6 if we're trying to find multi-purpose moves.
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Jun 7, 2014 01:56
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| # ? May 12, 2024 15:21 |
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xopods posted:K5's awful, I think. Like I said about Khel's P5 suggestion, we don't build up the middle of our position before the edges. If we're going to continue on the lower side, surely we play G5 if we're being single-minded, or E6 if we're trying to find multi-purpose moves. I disagree. Playing in the g5 area only encourages white to plop a stone down on top of the enclosure at p5, and black will be forced to choose - take the extra profit on the bottom and turn r8 into a weak group (and make k3 completely meaningless in the process) or protect r8 and lose out on points. If black builds up at k5, that situation doesn't come up, and f3/g3/whatever is still placed okay since b can dump it to mess up the corner. I think G5 and the like are grasping at too much - B has a good position he can ride to the end if he's careful.
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Jun 7, 2014 03:02
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