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neogeo0823 posted:Counterpoint: second to last panel. Also, these two sentences, http://www.paranatural.net/index.php?id=203 Once a spirit pops inside something, it's stuck there until it gets the energy to pop back out. Or something else that's considered "unethical". It doesn't seem likely to me that a tool and a wielder would work out to be the same thing to a spirit, nor would it really follow that a spirit could flow between the two. Given a spirit can't leave its tool until it's recharged. That page I linked also actually suggests that Max could have been possessed before he got to Mayview (possessed things can pass the barrier) and just didn't awaken as a spectral until after he was on the other side. That would be pretty convenient, but not strictly impossible. The page and panel you linked, which I had saved to post as well (since I last posted I completely re-read the story to date), is interesting in that Max's eye is glowing in a way that we've only ever seen when someone is communing with their spirit. It's actually very, very pointedly never come up at all when someone is just leaking spectral gas or using their spirit's powers. That said, it doesn't look like he's actually connecting with Scrapdragon (or anything else) so it might have just been a "for coolsies" thing. I guess at most you could say Scrapdragon grabbed him for a split second to give Max the little extra time to react and bat the bat, but there's not really anything other than glowy eye to suggest it.
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Jun 5, 2014 04:01
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Still seems like it's just the bat exerting its influence over Max. How come nobody ever questions that? It mysteriously compelled Max to find it, and it was lurking until it could find a compatible spectral. Totally suspicious. Spender also implied that the Activity Club doesn't just leave tools lying around either. The magnet eel was in hiding.
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Jun 5, 2014 06:18
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It doesn't really seem like they can just casually identify tools by sight. Spender had no idea the whale-frog plunger was a tool until Isabel shoved it in his face, and he was just taking her word for it at that. Also busy freaking out about the color. Not unreasonable that there could be a handful of tools just laying around all over the place waiting for a spectral with the right kind of energy to wander by that they can call out to. It isn't really a mystery that it compelled Max to it, it's stated that tool-spirits can attract compatible spectrals to them, and it seems like the main ways to find out a tool is a tool is either seeing it be made (whale-frog plunger) or waving it near a spectral of the right color. Presumably they deal with tools they make or find, but don't actively seek them out. Not to say Scrapdragon isn't suspect, and it's totally possible he's behind all the weird poo poo, I'm just not convinced and occasionally like to nerd out over things.
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Jun 5, 2014 06:49
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http://www.paranatural.net/index.php?id=142 Last panel of the Max and Doorman Have A Chat page, Max's tool is leaking black stuff like nobody's business.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:26
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I always got the impression that the possession was obviously Scrapdragon BUT the fact that he took over Max at all without his knowing, much less from a tool, was something specific to Scrapdragon. Either as showing that he's some ungodly strong high tier being or a specific trick that he can pull off. Like I really wish I could say this is from the streams but it's been long enough that my memory of them is basically gone, but I've been working under the assumption that even for directly possessed spectrals hijacking like that is rare to the point where people can say it Just Doesn't Happen.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:29
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Splicer posted:http://www.paranatural.net/index.php?id=142 With how this comic strives to break expectations, that could just as easily be Scrapdragon being pissed as hell that Max is being possessed by something else.
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Jun 5, 2014 08:38
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Splicer posted:http://www.paranatural.net/index.php?id=142 That happens all the time, and doesn't really seem to mean anything too specific. Almost everybody, but especially Max and Isabel, are prone to just randomly leaking spirit gas all over the place. Actually, thinking about it, the three people who do it most often are Spender, Isabel, and Max so maybe it's some kind of "overwhelming spectral power" thing. Or maybe it just looks neat. That said, Zach seems pretty big on subtle background hints and continuity which makes it hard to completely write things off as done just because it looks cool. Whitenoise Poster posted:I always got the impression that the possession was obviously Scrapdragon BUT the fact that he took over Max at all without his knowing, much less from a tool, was something specific to Scrapdragon. Either as showing that he's some ungodly strong high tier being or a specific trick that he can pull off. Like I really wish I could say this is from the streams but it's been long enough that my memory of them is basically gone, but I've been working under the assumption that even for directly possessed spectrals hijacking like that is rare to the point where people can say it Just Doesn't Happen. That's definitely a possibility. My read on things right now is that unless Scrapdragon is unique, a spirit couldn't leave a tool to possess a human. That isn't to say Scrapdragon isn't unique, though. With magnet powers, you could even hand wave it as him being able attract or repel itself to tools and humans freely without getting stuck in them like a normal spirit.
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Jun 5, 2014 19:33
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Raenir K. Artemi posted:With how this comic strives to break expectations, that could just as easily be Scrapdragon being pissed as hell that Max is being possessed by something else. Some people in this thread need to be beaten violently with Occams Razor. There is no solid evidence whatsoever that anything other than Scrapdragon is possessing Max. In light of that, the rational thing to do is to assume his spontaneous possession is related to the spirit we know he carries around rather than the spirit of santa claus we made up.
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Jun 5, 2014 19:54
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Captain Oblivious posted:Some people in this thread need to be beaten violently with Occams Razor. There is no solid evidence whatsoever that anything other than Scrapdragon is possessing Max. I dunno dude I think Occam's razor is a great tool for materials sciences but it tends to fall short in dealing with such as psychology or art or humanities, and I think relying on it heavily in a comic whose author has demonstrated an intentional desire to subvert genres is problematic.
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Jun 5, 2014 20:08
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Captain Oblivious posted:Some people in this thread need to be beaten violently with Occams Razor. There is no solid evidence whatsoever that anything other than Scrapdragon is possessing Max. It is a bizarre goon habit to make up outlandish theories for the simplest plot developments in fiction and, when they invariably turn out to be wrong, get huffy because it's too "predictable."
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Jun 5, 2014 20:17
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Maybe the snake is like 1950's Magneto, where he could do anything as long as he could reference magnets or metals in a monologue somewhere. "Fool, your grip, it's as strong as IRON, that means it cannot hold magneto, master of magnetism"
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Jun 5, 2014 20:18
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I think that in this case it seems like people are intentionally complicating events just so that the outcome doesn't match their expectations. Foreshadowing exists in stories to make readers feel smart when their predictions are correct. Not every single plot point has to be subverted. Sometimes the spirit possessing a kid temporarily is just the spirit that kid carries around in his backpack. Nobody needs to invent Blackbeard's Fetal Twin to explain it.
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Jun 5, 2014 20:21
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Paramemetic posted:I dunno dude I think Occam's razor is a great tool for materials sciences but it tends to fall short in dealing with such as psychology or art or humanities, and I think relying on it heavily in a comic whose author has demonstrated an intentional desire to subvert genres is problematic. There's a difference between subverting genres and establishing things yourself and then doing something else anyway though. And that doesn't negate Occam's Razor anyway; a whole new set of rules just means that you make the fewest assumptions for those rules. And, taking into account everything we know bout the world of Paranatural so far and what we've seen happen, Scrapdragon being able to temporarily control Max is a simpler answer than Max having been possessed by a so-far completely unknown spirit without anyone catching on. I guess we'll see Friday, though, when Scrapdragon shows up and speaks/roars/dances/does whatever and we see if it sounds like Max talking to the Doorman. Unless tomorrow's page is mostly Max staring in awe and confusion at the weird landscape around him and then the garbage snake looming up behind him or something in the last panel or two, in which case I guess we're waiting until Monday for this question to be answered.
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Jun 5, 2014 20:25
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Roland Jones posted:There's a difference between subverting genres and establishing things yourself and then doing something else anyway though. And that doesn't negate Occam's Razor anyway; a whole new set of rules just means that you make the fewest assumptions for those rules. And, taking into account everything we know bout the world of Paranatural so far and what we've seen happen, Scrapdragon being able to temporarily control Max is a simpler answer than Max having been possessed by a so-far completely unknown spirit without anyone catching on. Return to Spender v Forge. 
Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 20:27
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Fried Chicken posted:Return to Spender v Forge. Oh god it's Homestuck all over again
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Jun 5, 2014 20:30
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Yeah for what it's worth I'm pretty sure it's just Scrapdragon because we haven't even developed that spirit yet why would we add more and more that aren't Starchman? But I think specifically saying "let's think about this scientifically you dullards!" is a goofy thing to hold to in fiction.
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Jun 5, 2014 20:33
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Paramemetic posted:Yeah for what it's worth I'm pretty sure it's just Scrapdragon because we haven't even developed that spirit yet why would we add more and more that aren't Starchman? But I think specifically saying "let's think about this scientifically you dullards!" is a goofy thing to hold to in fiction. It's not even that it's just that "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SUBVERSIONSSSS" is a terrible argument. Zack has subverted an anime trope here and there, cool, that does not mean he is being subversive for the sake of being subversive. Inventing a new spirit out of nowhere isn't "subverting expectations" it's just manifesting a plot element out of nowhere that could not have been predicted save by blindfire guessing. What I'm saying is that "subversion" is becoming to this thread as "trolling" was to Homestuck. Everything must be some secret eighth dimensional chess trolling by Hussie! 
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Jun 5, 2014 20:57
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Paramemetic posted:Yeah for what it's worth I'm pretty sure it's just Scrapdragon because we haven't even developed that spirit yet why would we add more and more that aren't Starchman? But I think specifically saying "let's think about this scientifically you dullards!" is a goofy thing to hold to in fiction. Eh, Occam's Razor isn't really "scientific", it's just saying that assuming the least will probably lead you to the right answer. Like, we could suppose that the star Starchman hit Max with on his first day was actually a Horcrux and now Max is possessed by a fragment of the ur-Starchman, which is what was speaking to the Doorman (Starchman being the "broken god" referred to in that conversation), but while it's possible that doesn't mean it's likely. ...I was originally trying to come up with the silliest thing I could but now that I've written all that out I kind of want it to be true.
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Jun 5, 2014 21:01
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I think Max vs Doorman was Max being possessed by the time-traveling clone daughter of Eightfold who learned how to change aura color by respawning from spying on the pixel dogs with P.J.
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Jun 5, 2014 22:44
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Apparently I missed a memo and went and brought up a sore subject, or something? My bad.
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Jun 5, 2014 22:46
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:Apparently I missed a memo and went and brought up a sore subject, or something? My bad. Actually, I think this one was my fault. Sorry guys.  Roland Jones posted:...I was originally trying to come up with the silliest thing I could but now that I've written all that out I kind of want it to be true. The eternal danger of writing counterfactuals involving Starchman.
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Jun 6, 2014 01:07
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shelper posted:Maybe the snake is like 1950's Magneto, where he could do anything as long as he could reference magnets or metals in a monologue somewhere. 50's Magneto must have been especially overpowered to have predated the first x-men comic by a decade 
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Jun 6, 2014 01:13
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Captain Oblivious posted:It's not even that it's just that "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SUBVERSIONSSSS" is a terrible argument. Zack has subverted an anime trope here and there, cool, that does not mean he is being subversive for the sake of being subversive. Inventing a new spirit out of nowhere isn't "subverting expectations" it's just manifesting a plot element out of nowhere that could not have been predicted save by blindfire guessing. It's not exactly "blindfire guessing" when people think a character may be possessed when the big piece of evidence hinting that is introduced in a chapter all about a dude who is a medium and all about the rules of possession, especially since the thing that's making people think its the case is something that has never been shown with anyone else in the cast who uses a tool and was, in fact, explicitly called out by Doorman for being out of the ordinary.
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Jun 6, 2014 02:49
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I hope we get more Starchman soon. He's the best. I hope that when Spender gets into some way serious trouble, Starchman saves the day.
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Jun 6, 2014 02:58
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mr. stefan posted:It's not exactly "blindfire guessing" when people think a character may be possessed when the big piece of evidence hinting that is introduced in a chapter all about a dude who is a medium and all about the rules of possession, especially since the thing that's making people think its the case is something that has never been shown with anyone else in the cast who uses a tool and was, in fact, explicitly called out by Doorman for being out of the ordinary. I don't see where it's being called out at all. Doorman doesn't mention possession or tools. He seems surprised and flustered because he thought no one was around and now suddenly someone else is in the room hearing his secrets. So uh...what are you talking about?
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Jun 6, 2014 03:19
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Speaking of, even though I can do a decent job of reading Forge's spirit speak, I have trouble with Doorman. Is there a translation?
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Jun 6, 2014 05:01
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Heavy Zed posted:I don't see where it's being called out at all. Doorman doesn't mention possession or tools. He seems surprised and flustered because he thought no one was around and now suddenly someone else is in the room hearing his secrets. So uh...what are you talking about? He's talking about Isaac earlier in the chapter.
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Jun 6, 2014 05:07
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mr. stefan posted:It's not exactly "blindfire guessing" when people think a character may be possessed when the big piece of evidence hinting that is introduced in a chapter all about a dude who is a medium and all about the rules of possession, especially since the thing that's making people think its the case is something that has never been shown with anyone else in the cast who uses a tool and was, in fact, explicitly called out by Doorman for being out of the ordinary. It is blindfire guessing. There is no evidence, none, period, that a hitherto unknown spirit is possessing Max as a Medium. That it has never been confirmed, directly, that a tool wielding Spectral can be possessed by said tool inhabiting spirit means nothing. It is far less of an assumption and/or leap of logic to suggest that this is possible, and simply our first exposure to it, than to assume that Max is both a Medium and a Tool User outta nowhere. That's really all there is to this.
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Jun 6, 2014 05:16
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Technically, it could be said that since a spirit in a tool can pull the wielder into the spirit fusion realm thingy, wouldn't it also be possible for a spirit to possess its wielder from the tool? Since the spirit fusion is almost entirely mental, what's essentially going on is the spirit's forcing the wielder's mind and its own to meld. I'd imagine it's a bit like Skyping. However, in whatever it was that happened to Max, Scrap Dragon did a one way call and Max's brain just kind of sat there, on hold, waiting for a call that never came. This gives me a nice mental image of Max's mind blanking out on a white screen while Scrap Dragon speaks very very slowly so Max's body says it at the right speed. When the Scrap Dragon's done, it ends the call, so to speak, and Max's mind kinda just goes "Huh... no one picked up on the other end. What was I doing again?"
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Jun 6, 2014 05:35
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Captain Oblivious posted:It is blindfire guessing. There is no evidence, none, period, that a hitherto unknown spirit is possessing Max as a Medium. That it has never been confirmed, directly, that a tool wielding Spectral can be possessed by said tool inhabiting spirit means nothing. It is far less of an assumption and/or leap of logic to suggest that this is possible, and simply our first exposure to it, than to assume that Max is both a Medium and a Tool User outta nowhere. It's totally most likely that it's Scrapdragon for meta-reasons, but it has been confirmed that a spirit in a tool cannot leave that tool unless they have the energy to reincarnate. Which means that for it to be Scrapdragon talking to Doorman he has to be exhibiting a brand new ability that we've never seen anyone or anything exhibit or even hint is possible. Meanwhile Max being both a Medium and a Tool User is something that's already been established as entirely possible, thanks to Spender and his Satan/Elder God combo platter. It is, at very least no more of a stretch to say that Max is double dipping on spirits than it is to say Scrapdragon has a new and unique ability as far as I'm concerned. Hell, it'd make sense given Max's Magneto powers for Scrapdragon to be able to attach and repel at will in a way other spirits can't.
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Jun 6, 2014 05:43
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Triskelli posted:Speaking of, even though I can do a decent job of reading Forge's spirit speak, I have trouble with Doorman. Is there a translation? Googled and found this http://paranatural.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Languages Doorman posted:YOUR RETURN CHANGES NOTHING, SCHEMER. MY MASTER DOES NOT FEAR BROKEN GODS.
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Jun 6, 2014 05:52
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MikeJF posted:He's talking about Isaac earlier in the chapter. I don't think they are. Either way I can't find what you're talking about. Isaac said some stuff in that chapter about how tools and possession work and showed off spirit-mode but I'm pretty sure no one has mentioned yet how it's impossible for a tool spirit to take control of their user. What we have seen is that tool-spirits can force communion and Spender says that when they're in range they share their user's senses and when they commune they can straight-up murder their user so I don't know taking momentary control just doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to me.
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Jun 6, 2014 05:53
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:It is, at very least no more of a stretch to say that Max is double dipping on spirits than it is to say Scrapdragon has a new and unique ability as far as I'm concerned. Hell, it'd make sense given Max's Magneto powers for Scrapdragon to be able to attach and repel at will in a way other spirits can't. Well we haven't actually seen any evidence that normal spirits can possess their medium, so really the choice is between "Max's spirit has a new and unique ability" and "Max is double dipping on spirits and ALSO one of them has a new and unique ability." Frankly if it WASN'T a unique thing I expect thundergod would be capable of and he would probably basically do it all the time, since that isn't that case I'd say it's pretty exceptional either way.
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Jun 6, 2014 06:04
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Triskelli posted:Speaking of, even though I can do a decent job of reading Forge's spirit speak, I have trouble with Doorman. Is there a translation? In general, if you can't figure out one of the spirit-speaks, check the comments. EDIT: sorry, I don't know why I doubleposted instead of editting this one into the previous post, wasn't thinking.
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Jun 6, 2014 06:05
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Update! http://www.paranatural.net/index.php?id=264 Scrapdragon is big 
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Jun 6, 2014 06:07
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Huh, this seems up earlier than usual. e: well poo poo
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Jun 6, 2014 06:07
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Morrison continuing to riff on himself in the alt text is so loving hilarious, I can't help but love it.
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Jun 6, 2014 06:08
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Paranatural Comments posted:So this is what the spirit does all day. Lay around naked eating junk food. 
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Jun 6, 2014 06:10
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next comic: they actually talk about ethics
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Jun 6, 2014 06:11
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Haha I really love the alt text. It really does scream Scrapdragon was basically saying OI I'M NAKED, what the hell man.
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Jun 6, 2014 06:12
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