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E: Never mind.
EB Nulshit fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Jun 6, 2014 |
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Jun 6, 2014 14:15
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| # ? May 27, 2024 23:06 |
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Well, after rotating my thoughts towards different career plans over the past six months I've settled on ***software developer***. I start my com sci degree in the second half of this year and some of my arts logic papers contribute  Thanks to all the devs in this thread; it has been a fantastic resource.
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Jun 6, 2014 14:32
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UK advice needed: I've been unemployed for nine months while learning software development, and a few weeks back I finally decided to put 10 resumes out there to see what the reaction was. Got 4 interviews off the back of it from all over the country, and that's panned out to two poor offers and one seemingly-decent one: £35k in the north of England for a small biotech company. They want me to join a two-man team who're developing a research-council backed project, with a look to leading it by the end of the year. The pros for taking the job is that it would probably afford me much more responsibility than I'd find in an entry level position, that it'll make use of my maths background and that there's a small but non-zero chance of getting some publications off the back of it. The cons are that it's not London, it's nowhere near a good London salary, and that they probably wouldn't be offering me the position unless they were starved of decent developers. The alternative is to back off for a few months and turn out another small project, and then go about applying for jobs properly, sending off hundreds of CVs every which way. Right now I'm leaning towards taking the job and staying with it for a year or so just to get some experience on my CV, then I can re-evaluate and consider a move to London. Does this seem sensible? e: For anyone else who might have to make a similar decision in future, I also asked for advice in the terrible programmer thread and the opinion was overwhelmingly positive. coffeetable fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jun 6, 2014 |
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Jun 6, 2014 14:55
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I'm not super well-informed on non-London salaries but that sounds pretty decent for the North.
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Jun 6, 2014 15:26
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Doghouse posted:Daaang, how high do salaries go in this field? The big places like Facebook, Google, and Apple will offer obscene packages to keep certain engineers from leaving to found/work for startups. Their "normal engineer" compensations aren't bad either. A large chunk of the deals are stock not salary though. At least half of my net income was stock last year. Note: the Bay Area is the most expensive place to live in the country and literally requires like $130k to cover median housing costs. pr0zac fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Jun 6, 2014 |
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Jun 6, 2014 18:06
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pr0zac posted:The big places like Facebook, Google, and Apple will offer obscene packages to keep certain engineers from leaving to found/work for startups. Their "normal engineer" compensations aren't bad either. A large chunk of the deals are stock not salary though. At least half of my net income was stock last year. Note: the Bay Area is the most expensive place to live in the country and literally requires like $130k to cover median housing costs. Half of me would like everyone to know that this is a ridiculous exaggeration. The other half says California sucks, don't come.
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Jun 6, 2014 20:11
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Ithaqua posted:I've been offered 120k before as a senior dev, which isn't uncommon or very high for the NYC area. Of course some companies pay a lot more than others. http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Senior-Software-Engineer-Salaries-E9079_D_KO7,31.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Staff-Software-Engineer-Salaries-E9079_D_KO7,30.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Senior-Staff-Software-Engineer-Salaries-E9079_D_KO7,37.htm  pr0zac posted:The big places like Facebook, Google, and Apple will offer obscene packages to keep certain engineers from leaving to found/work for startups. Their "normal engineer" compensations aren't bad either. A large chunk of the deals are stock not salary though. At least half of my net income was stock last year. Note: the Bay Area is the most expensive place to live in the country and literally requires like $130k to cover median housing costs. Steve French posted:Half of me would like everyone to know that this is a ridiculous exaggeration.
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Jun 7, 2014 01:53
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Cicero posted:No, that sounds right to me, at least if you're trying to live in a house in a non-terrible area, which is something programmers in most parts of the country can handle without too much trouble. Just so I can narrow down what leads you to this, what do you think median housing costs are in the bay area? You can answer either in terms of actual median terms, or in terms of the vague subjective qualifications you just added to the relatively concrete statement "literally requires like $130k to cover median housing costs." Don't get me wrong, I like what you're saying, because it might discourage people from moving here.
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Jun 7, 2014 03:13
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Cicero posted:And then you look at compensation for senior positions at certain companies in the bay area and go If you insist on owning and not renting, I'd say it's considerably more than $130k/yr. I think that's a silly thing to insist on, though.
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Jun 7, 2014 03:21
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Steve French posted:Just so I can narrow down what leads you to this, what do you think median housing costs are in the bay area? You can answer either in terms of actual median terms, or in terms of the vague subjective qualifications you just added to the relatively concrete statement "literally requires like $130k to cover median housing costs." Yearly, that's $45,000 and $53,400. Markov Chain Chomp posted:If you insist on owning and not renting, I'd say it's considerably more than $130k/yr. I think that's a silly thing to insist on, though. edit: according to this, even the average apartment rent price in Sunnyvale is now $2465, which is just nuts: http://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-sunnyvale-rent-trends/ Cicero fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 03:28
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So in your mind, median housing costs for a single earner in the Bay Area is a house in Sunnyvale or Santa Clara with no money down and a way above average interest rate? Got it.
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Jun 7, 2014 03:35
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Bearing in mind the context of this thread being newbie programming interviews, I think it's reasonable to assume single earner with no kids. If we're considering a whole family, then things do change, but likely for the better unless half the couple isn't working. Not saying housing costs in the bay area aren't ridiculous, just that that statement was exaggerated. Someone making $130k a year and renting an apartment for $2500 will have roughly $3.5-4k of takehome pay left over after rent. I don't know what sort of standard of living you all have, but that's plenty to me. Is more than that good? Certainly. Might the takehome after rent be better in other areas of the country? Perhaps. Is an experienced dev in the bay area able to make more than $130k? Certainly. But none of those things mean that living here "literally requires like $130k to cover median housing costs," and my personal experience runs pretty counter to that.
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Jun 7, 2014 03:44
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You are right. Newbies would want to be in the hip city. http://www.zillow.com/san-francisco-ca/home-values/ 931k median.
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Jun 7, 2014 04:30
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Hughlander posted:You are right. Newbies would want to be in the hip city. http://www.zillow.com/san-francisco-ca/home-values/ 931k median. See: Markov Chain Chomp posted:If you insist on owning and not renting, I'd say it's considerably more than $130k/yr. I think that's a silly thing to insist on, though. Should every new programmer plan on moving to the Bay Area and getting a job there? No. Are there a bunch who end up getting positions out there? Sure. Are the relatively high desire for housing and high salaries inflating property values in an undesirable (for most) way? You bet. Still, that's life. As long as the companies are willing to throw the piles of money at developers they are, property values are going to be stupid. You either rent, you rent somewhere cheaper, you buy somewhere cheaper, or you don't take positions out there if the cost of housing is more than what you can reasonably afford.
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Jun 7, 2014 05:39
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The best option is working remotely from a place you actually want to live at and making 30-50% more than you normally would.
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Jun 7, 2014 05:51
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Oh for gently caress sakes it was an off-hand comment about how salaries are high in the bay area with a random number related to housing costs hazily remembered from some article I read at some point thrown in. I didn't mean to imply I was stating hard numbers and apologize if it seemed like I was. San Francisco is the most expensive market in the country but of course its possible to live here cheaply, my rent in SF is $400 a month so I'd be dumb to argue otherwise.
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Jun 7, 2014 07:46
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There is talk in the careers path thread about a Computer Science major/software developer bubble. What do you guys think of this?
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Jun 7, 2014 10:14
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Lampsacus posted:There is talk in the careers path thread about a Computer Science major/software developer bubble. What do you guys think of this? Given that if anything, software development is becoming more important over time (as we work to modernize industries like health care, utilities, etc.) that makes literally no sense. What's the justification for this? Who's doing the talking? A bigger issue might be that educational institutions don't have the resources to handle the increase in demand for computer science courses. Lack of jobs is not an issue and is not going to become one. http://techcrunch.com/2014/05/25/from-the-ivy-league-to-state-schools-demand-for-computer-science-is-booming/ http://upstart.bizjournals.com/money/loot/2014/05/19/marc-andreessen-not-worried-about-tech-bubble.html double sulk posted:The best option is working remotely from a place you actually want to live at and making 30-50% more than you normally would. This. I live in a beautiful 4-bedroom house with a giant office (work from home) and make over 60% above the median software dev salary for my area (and over 4 times the average anything salary). I don't have a lovely commute and I get to live in a town I like a lot. Also I get to do interesting work with smart people but don't have to smell their cheeto dust or gaze at their neckbeards (just my own).
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Jun 7, 2014 14:05
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Lampsacus posted:There is talk in the careers path thread about a Computer Science major/software developer bubble. What do you guys think of this? Many other professions are totally hosed long term. So many jobs eventually are going to be automated by a computer - e.g. cab drivers, paralegals, doctors, lawyers, order-takers at restaurants, technical writers, reporters... This is going to require a lot of loving software both near and long term.
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Jun 7, 2014 14:35
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Until we write software which can write software.
Tunga fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 14:50
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Tunga posted:Until we write software we can write software. There's a theory that this can't be done in a practical sense. Not without some really major breakthroughs. Every time somebody writes software that comes closer to this it just becomes the programmer's job to deal with the idiosyncrasies of it.
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Jun 7, 2014 15:25
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double sulk posted:The best option is working remotely from a place you actually want to live at and making 30-50% more than you normally would. Yep. I work for a Bay Area company, but live in the Midwest. It isn't just more money, too. The work I am doing is more interesting than what I would find here and I dare say I work with a deeper pool of smarter people than I'd find in a job here. I also work under an employment contract subject to California laws, so they don't restrict or assert ownership over my freelancing or side projects if I wish to do them. My own state's laws basically say screw the employee on anything labor or IP related, so that California venue clause in the contract is awesome for me. I've also been able to make more contacts with industry folks out there, so I imagine I've got good luck finding a similar arrangement with another company if this job should go south.
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Jun 7, 2014 15:26
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NovemberMike posted:There's a theory that this can't be done in a practical sense. What theory is this?
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Jun 7, 2014 16:07
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I would imagine the halting problem makes a strong case for programs needing programmers, or at least people that can fix bugs. NovemberMike might be referring to something else, though.
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Jun 7, 2014 18:11
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pointers posted:I would imagine the halting problem makes a strong case for programs needing programmers, or at least people that can fix bugs. NovemberMike might be referring to something else, though. Not sure why you think that? We already have programs that write other programs and it's fine. The halting problem doesn't mean you can't have Squarespace.com or compilers. You can't write a program that will determine if a given program and input pair will stop computing for ALL possible program and input pairs. In subsets of that (program, input) space you can obviously determine halting, resource utilization, speed, data integrity, order of processing, whatever. Or not give a poo poo and just have a script monitor your memory leaking server and restart it twice an hour. WISYWIG editors like squarespace might grow up into tools that can properly replace a lot of CRUD app developers. Coupled with a decent GUI for designing business relevant constraints for a DB you could see a huge chunk of the work for web developers today evaporate. Or not.
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Jun 7, 2014 18:46
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Sil posted:WISYWIG editors like squarespace might grow up into tools that can properly replace a lot of CRUD app developers. Coupled with a decent GUI for designing business relevant constraints for a DB you could see a huge chunk of the work for web developers today evaporate. Then someone will come up with the concept of Web 5.0 and the cycle will begin again.
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Jun 7, 2014 18:49
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You better watch out programmers, you're going to be obsolete when hard AI takes off.
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Jun 7, 2014 19:23
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tldr: 100% copy paste programmers are gonna have a hard time if the body of knowledge they copy paste from is made obsolete. 90% or less copy paste programmers should be fine. 90-99% copy pasters are gonna have to brush up on their office politics skills a bit.
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Jun 7, 2014 19:52
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pointers posted:I would imagine the halting problem makes a strong case for programs needing programmers, or at least people that can fix bugs. NovemberMike might be referring to something else, though.
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Jun 7, 2014 20:13
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Since the hard part of most software development is interpreting the vague requirements other people give you, it's probably the case that shrughes posted:you're going to be obsolete when hard AI takes off. coffeetable fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 20:16
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pointers posted:I would imagine the halting problem makes a strong case for programs needing programmers, or at least people that can fix bugs. NovemberMike might be referring to something else, though. Computers have been writing programs for eons, what do you think a compiler does? Give a computer an output and an optimization routine and you'll probably get back something that does what you want. Whether you can understand it, and if it completes in a human reasonable amount of time is another matter. lovely programmers are gonna be replaced regardless, make sure you are very good at what you do and you'll have no real issues. Look at any of the buggy-whip jobs being replaced by automation: the boring poo poo is automated out but you're gonna need a few humans here and there because making computers innovate is expensive for now. Automation is not cheap especially when it has to interface with humans; I wouldn't worry about coders being replaced by Programmer-O-Tron 4000 in the near future.
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Jun 7, 2014 20:24
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Malcolm XML posted:Programmer-O-Tron 4000
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Jun 7, 2014 20:26
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bonds0097 posted:Given that if anything, software development is becoming more important over time (as we work to modernize industries like health care, utilities, etc.) that makes literally no sense. What's the justification for this? Who's doing the talking? Lazowska's pushing a narrative that will get him more money for his department, and he's infamous for restricting enrollment for just that reason. Of course he's going to tell you that the educational system can't possibly meet demand (unless the UW gives him $150M for a new building and a hiring spree - and remember, it's a good investment because there is no bubble!). In reality, it's not that hard to teach programming at a level that qualifies someone for an entry-level industry position. Andreessen is a venture capitalist. He depends on investors buying startup equity from him, and if they're spooked about a bubble, he'll be left with a bunch of companies with stupid names and questionable routes to profitability. It's possible for a labor glut to exist, even when there's a lot of work that needs to be done. All you need to do is tell a bunch of college kids, "this career is the low-effort road to riches!" and wait a few years. You can see that effect right now in business and law schools - sure, there are lots of well-paying jobs for businesspeople and attorneys, but there are even more people graduating with the degrees, and a lot of them end up hosed. It'll only get worse as the startup bubble pops, the labor market gets a little bit less crazy, and becoming a university lecturer starts to look a bit more attractive to people who might otherwise have done private sector work. Just a few teachers can crank out a lot of educated students. Of course, in the labor market, you can still do pretty well if you "invest" before the bubble pops. Even if there are a hundred applicants for every junior developer position in ten years, the senior developer market will still look like the junior dev market does today. If a student is most of the way through a CS education, and enjoys the work, they should absolutely stick it out. But, that doesn't mean that we're not in the growth phase of a bubble. We absolutely are. NovemberMike posted:There's a theory that this can't be done in a practical sense. Not without some really major breakthroughs. Every time somebody writes software that comes closer to this it just becomes the programmer's job to deal with the idiosyncrasies of it. Other way around. There are all kinds of theory-of-computation results you can talk about in reference to machines that can handle arbitrary tasks, but once you restrict the domain to business problems, it's possible to build a flexible framework that can accommodate a lot of different tasks within the domain. You probably won't ever be able to live the Star Trek fantasy of saying, "Computer, design an algorithm to solve the following problem," but there's nothing too theoretically challenging about building interfaces that can handle lots of different related problems, even ones we haven't identified yet. Keep in mind that, in the 70s, people thought "computer operator" (not "programmer") was going to be an up-and-coming white collar job. Now that we have more sophisticated UIs, it's just a basic skill, half a step above literacy and simple math on the "you need to do this to operate in the modern world" scale.
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Jun 7, 2014 20:34
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Lampsacus posted:There is talk in the careers path thread about a Computer Science major/software developer bubble. What do you guys think of this? The data I've seen shows computer science degrees awarded still below the levels of the late 90s and early 2000s, despite the fact that the college population is much higher now than it was then. Programming was a fine job even during the dotcom bust when a lot of programmers were being laid off because they were employed by nonsense companies and there were a ton of new graduates entering the market. Anecdotally, it seems like it's getting harder to hire programmers with strong skills, not easier. So I think prospects are good right now.
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Jun 7, 2014 21:56
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coffeetable posted:but there is no fundamental reason why computers can't write software as well (as badly) as humans. Human brains are not special. Malcolm XML posted:Computers have been writing programs for eons, what do you think a compiler does?
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Jun 7, 2014 22:03
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pointers posted:Human brains function very differently than a Turing machine,
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Jun 7, 2014 22:10
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coffeetable posted:do you believe souls exist too 'brains operate much differently than Turing machines' is not a contentious statement if you know even the tiniest amount of neurobiology.
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Jun 7, 2014 22:38
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pointers posted:Saying brains operate much differently than Turing machines is not a contentious statement if you know even the tiniest amount of neurobiology.
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Jun 7, 2014 22:43
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pointers posted:I would imagine the halting problem makes a strong case for programs needing programmers, or at least people that can fix bugs. NovemberMike might be referring to something else, though. Not quite. The basic idea is that programmers are basically people that define behaviors in mind numbing detail. Whenever you make programs that allow you to make programs more easily you just end up with more behaviors to define. You can change how programmers work but nobody's made them less necessary.
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Jun 7, 2014 23:37
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^^^thanks for clarifying, definitely don't disagree. coffeetable posted:ct thesis or get out
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Jun 7, 2014 23:53
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