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uPen posted:I somehow missed this when someone recommended it so thanks. I was just looking for something to get on audible and Thirty Years War just happens to be on there!
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Jun 6, 2014 02:22
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Austria hungry was a multi-ethnic state in the same way that pre- I remember in the maps thread someone posted a "United States of Greater Austria" federalist reform proposal from the early 20th century, which was apparently supported by Franz Ferdinand. Any chance of reform actually happening if he hadn't been shot?
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Jun 6, 2014 04:10
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The United States of greater Austria was never going to happen. Besides Wikipedia painting the idea as only coming from a group of scholars near Franz rather than Franz himself, any redefinition of internal borders would have seen Hungary lose land and go "gently caress this we're out". Once Hungary goes there's really no reason for the Balkan states to stick around when given the choice of willingly submitting to Vienna or independence. E: and this isn't even including Austria's neighbors jumping in this hypothetical to get a piece.
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Jun 6, 2014 04:49
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If you look at the context, it's never going to happen. Everything was on fire with nationalism. Things would have been less explosive if the Czech would have gotten the same status as the Hungarians, but that would have meant a substantial change in the way as to how the state would have to organize politically and in terms of administration. E.g. no more Cis-and Transleithania, everything redrawn and re-negotiated. One has to wonder how that might have turned out if you look at the way day to day business was handled in the parliament.
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Jun 6, 2014 06:05
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Nenonen posted:And hipsters on bicycles! The Dutch still do it better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo8DlBkSW_w
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Jun 6, 2014 12:27
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That snare drummer is just thinking to himself, there's got to be a better way to do this.
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Jun 6, 2014 12:51
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It's January 1626 and one company in the regiment I'm currently studying is mutinying. The Captain sent the Lieutenant down to talk to them. "Brothers," he said, "I hear that you are making yourselves disagreeable, and you do not want to go on, which is why you do not want to follow the flag any more." At which they answered that they wanted money. "What money?" said the Lieutenant.
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Jun 6, 2014 18:37
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HEY GAL posted:It's January 1626 and one company in the regiment I'm currently studying is mutinying. The Captain sent the Lieutenant down to talk to them. I'm sure that went over well.
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Jun 6, 2014 18:49
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I'm sure that went over well.
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Jun 6, 2014 19:00
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One of the things that seems to float around a lot about soldiers in that era is a reliance on the potential of looting/booty as a financial incentive for sticking around through the tough times. I'm curious if you could comment on this at all. Was it a real thing that had to be reckoned with as a source of even semi-regular income, or the sort of crazy windfall that someone might get once in a campaign if they were lucky?
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Jun 6, 2014 19:15
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Cyrano4747 posted:One of the things that seems to float around a lot about soldiers in that era is a reliance on the potential of looting/booty as a financial incentive for sticking around through the tough times. I'm curious if you could comment on this at all. Was it a real thing that had to be reckoned with as a source of even semi-regular income, or the sort of crazy windfall that someone might get once in a campaign if they were lucky? Short answer: definitely, but as to what the individual is likely to get, that probably varies by person, campaign, and region; an area that's already been campaigned over is poo poo to go into again, for instance, and you can damage your enemies' armies by forcing them into such a region and waiting for them either to starve or to desert to you. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jun 6, 2014 |
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Jun 6, 2014 19:33
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HEY GAL posted:On paper the pay's good (unless you work for France, because it's Richelieu's explicit and deliberate policy to say he's going to pay his soldiers and then withhold everything except basic subsistence levels of support), but that's on paper. In real life, you will frequently not make enough to eat if you don't steal food from others. Since those others are already scraping against the carrying capacity of the region since they're peasants or whatever, that means Plan A is war crimes. Under such circumstances, how was becoming a mercenary viewed socially amongst the peasants? I mean, on one hand, you're becoming one of the evil bastards who looted and pillaged the family farm. On the other hand, you and those you protect have a better chance of not starving. Were they considered traitors of a sort, or were they just thought of as people who jumped on a good opportunity? By the way, thanks for the book recommendations from earlier - my backlog's gotten that much thicker now.
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Jun 6, 2014 19:38
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Tomn posted:Under such circumstances, how was becoming a mercenary viewed socially amongst the peasants? And the people in the rolls I've looked at that gave their occupation are members of the city-dwelling artisanate class, so I think the peasants are unlikely to become soldiers anyway--those rolls date from the '80s, but although we have many many fewer rolls from earlier, Geoffrey Hanlon's work on the Duke of Parma's army in '35 more or less corroborates that.
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Jun 6, 2014 19:44
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HEY GAL posted:Well, if they catch you and your comrades without escort they will try to torture you to death, so... That's interesting. Do you have any idea why artisans seem so prone to become mercenaries? Cities provide centralized recruiting centers for a mercenary company on the move, and they prefer people who can afford to provide part of their own equipment, or something?
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Jun 6, 2014 19:51
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Tomn posted:That's interesting. Do you have any idea why artisans seem so prone to become mercenaries? Cities provide centralized recruiting centers for a mercenary company on the move, and they prefer people who can afford to provide part of their own equipment, or something? And you don't provide your own equipment any more, the colonel/captain/quartermaster will have subcontracted for it. (The hilarious thing about this is that the officers are also sinking massive amounts of their own resources into this thing.)
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Jun 6, 2014 19:54
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For those asking for cannon balls manufacturing i saw this video of Time Team were they try and replicate how they made them in the 16th century. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjfiXw6me0A&t=1594s
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Jun 6, 2014 19:57
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HEY GAL posted:No idea. I do know that it argues against the old cliche that the only reason you'd do this is if you were forced into it by desperation. Does mercenary service present an opportunity for social mobility or a good job prospect for surplus sons that aren't going to be able to inherit the family business, or whatever? Just spitballing, but maybe your average dirt digging peasant is worth too much to his family as labor, while having a couple of surplus kids join the local mercenary company represents a good way to potentially bootstrap a city or town-dwelling family from semi-prosperous artisan to semi-wealthy notable?
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Jun 6, 2014 20:05
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Cyrano4747 posted:Does mercenary service present an opportunity for social mobility or a good job prospect for surplus sons that aren't going to be able to inherit the family business, or whatever? Until things start ossifying at the very end of the century, you have a chance of making it good as just some random dude. (The national military academy is an attempt to forestall this.) quote:Just spitballing, but maybe your average dirt digging peasant is worth too much to his family as labor, while having a couple of surplus kids join the local mercenary company represents a good way to potentially bootstrap a city or town-dwelling family from semi-prosperous artisan to semi-wealthy notable? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jun 6, 2014 |
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Jun 6, 2014 20:17
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Tomn posted:That's interesting. Do you have any idea why artisans seem so prone to become mercenaries? Cities provide centralized recruiting centers for a mercenary company on the move, and they prefer people who can afford to provide part of their own equipment, or something? Is the guild system an issue at that time? I'd imagine you get alot of people trained at occupation X, but they can't open up a shop and have to make do with something.
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Jun 6, 2014 20:33
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I'm sure it's been asked and answered in these thread before, but Hegel, what's your job that you're looking through this stuff all the time? Translating and possibly digitizing archive material?
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Jun 6, 2014 22:26
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:I'm sure it's been asked and answered in these thread before, but Hegel, what's your job that you're looking through this stuff all the time? Translating and possibly digitizing archive material? Edit: Working title: The Army Of Fuckups And The Spanish Road
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Jun 6, 2014 22:26
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HEY GAL posted:Working on my dissertation. You need to make the real title a Kelly's Heroes reference.
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Jun 6, 2014 22:39
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Cyrano4747 posted:You need to make the real title a Kelly's Heroes reference. Tilly's Heroes: "What money?"
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Jun 7, 2014 00:00
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So if I had to come up with an analogy for being a merc in the early modern, it'd be like somebody crashing your house party, eating all your food, drinking all your drink, kicking your pets, making a huge mess and refusing to help clean it up. And you can't kick them up because who the gently caress brings a gun to a party.
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Jun 7, 2014 00:14
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Frostwerks posted:So if I had to come up with an analogy for being a merc in the early modern, it'd be like somebody crashing your house party, eating all your food, drinking all your drink, kicking your pets, making a huge mess and refusing to help clean it up. And you can't kick them up because who the gently caress brings a gun to a party. And the worst part? He's unemployed. When he has work, he does the same thing, except he brings his friends, too.
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Jun 7, 2014 01:03
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I thought of dropping by RGASPI's online shitheap of a database, picking up a few docs, slapping together a D-Day special. Man, have they grown, I gave up after 3 hours. I'll do the rest next year. Enjoy.
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Jun 7, 2014 01:49
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Speaking of which, when was the last time an army crossed the Channel and landed on hostile ground successfully? I can't think of any English examples since 1066 (glorious revolution was naval only I think?)
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Jun 7, 2014 02:25
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The last time? Well that'd be 1944 I reckon.
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Jun 7, 2014 02:27
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nothing to seehere posted:Speaking of which, when was the last time an army crossed the Channel and landed on hostile ground successfully? I can't think of any English examples since 1066 (glorious revolution was naval only I think?)  I . . . have to be missing something here, but I've re-read it ten times. To answer, 1944.
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Jun 7, 2014 02:28
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I think he's looking for the last time someone crossed the channel successfully TO England but that's outta my expertise  .
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Jun 7, 2014 02:32
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Cyrano4747 posted:
I meant before 1944, obviously. I posted directly after a link saying D-day was an unprecedented historical feat, so I obviously am asking how unprecedented.
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Jun 7, 2014 02:32
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Oh then 1815 when Wellington crossed to end napoleon's hundred days.
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Jun 7, 2014 02:35
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Speaking of invasion retrospectives, I live in Saipan, and the Battle of Saipan was seventy years ago this month. I edited the original short documentary of the invasion by inserting some film of Saipan today.
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Jun 7, 2014 02:36
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I imagine English armies landed in hostile French territory all the time during the Hundred Years' War.
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Jun 7, 2014 02:41
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nothing to seehere posted:I meant before 1944, obviously. I posted directly after a link saying D-day was an unprecedented historical feat, so I obviously am asking how unprecedented. If I had to guess, the unprecedented bit was both the scale and size of the invasion and more importantly the fact that it was invading a section of beach that was actually defended. While there have been plenty of successful cross-channel armies and war parties for a drat long time, I can't think of that many major ones who met defenders while getting off the boats.
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Jun 7, 2014 02:48
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We were talking about the Hapsburgs earlier: this one is actually rocking the look. She's recognizably a member of the House of Hapsburg, but she's not, you know, Hapsperging out. The effect is rather cute. Isabella Clara Eugenia of Spain, daughter of Phillip II. quote:Her father, Philip II, was reportedly overjoyed at her birth and declared himself to be happier on the occasion than he would have been at the birth of a son... While Philip II is frequently characterized as having been cold and unaffectionate towards his offspring, there exist numerous letters addressed from him to his daughters which contain evidence of a deep attachment between them, each letter lovingly signed "Your good father".
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Jun 7, 2014 11:26
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Her sister looked even better, if we can believe the portrait.
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Jun 7, 2014 12:06
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Wow attractive Hapsburgs who knew? though we have to keep in mind they paid artists a poo poo load to get their good side so to speak. Speaking of over sea invasions, I'm reading up about the late Revolutionary and early Napoleonic Wars basics again and it is scary to almost hilarious how many times Ireland was either invaded with a small scale French raiding force or almost seriously invaded by a proper threat.
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Jun 7, 2014 13:57
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Tomn posted:If I had to guess, the unprecedented bit was both the scale and size of the invasion and more importantly the fact that it was invading a section of beach that was actually defended. While there have been plenty of successful cross-channel armies and war parties for a drat long time, I can't think of that many major ones who met defenders while getting off the boats. The key difference was they had telephone wires and railroads in the 1940s, meaning that any landing is going to be contested and ideally pushed back into the sea. Earlier warfare also had less elaborate supply lines.
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Jun 7, 2014 15:12
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Phobophilia posted:The key difference was they had telephone wires and railroads in the 1940s, meaning that any landing is going to be contested and ideally pushed back into the sea. Didn't one of the French kings successfully land an invasion on Albion's shores in the 1200s? My vague recollection is that he was trying to install his own claimant, but was bought off while besieging London.
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Jun 7, 2014 15:58
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