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Internet Kraken posted:Skeleton Lords is pretty easy but I still love that fight just because its fun. Scrub. You aren't supposed to like things that are easy, this is a Dark Souls thread! Seriously, the game and its fanbase seem to have fallen victim of their reputation. Bear Retrieval Unit posted:I died more times against Magus than against Smelter Demon. He's a fine boss. Is this even possible? I don't think it is.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:01
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Is this even possible? I don't think it is.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:03
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Re Ancient Dragon: in all fairness, I think it's extremely tricky for them to nail the right balance with the giant monster bosses, though they could certainly have done better here. I think the wyverns in Dragon Aerie are one of the series' best examples of how to do the "monstrous" type enemies right -- huge, heavily damaging attacks that (to me at least) are not completely trivial to avoid, but don't have completely obnoxious requirements for where to stand or what you should wear to deal with them. But at the same time, those wyverns aren't in any way...gamily handicapped, for lack of a better term. Every single end of them is pointy and dangerous. They can stomp on you, they can snap at you, they can breathe fire at you both on the ground and in the air, they can smash you with their tail. That pretty much covers the bases of what I'd expect them to be able to do. The design doesn't suggest that they pulled punches with their capabilities because it's a game and hey, players are expected to be able to dodge this stuff, but none of that stuff is gimmicky and stupid to avoid, either. I think the Rotten also nailed that balance really well. Maybe it's just not feasible for a boss the size and power of Ancient Dragon to not be gimmicky and still be capable of everything you'd expect him to be. That's fair, though, as there's every indication that he's only attackable because this is Dark Souls and every NPC is expected to be attackable. I don't mind the fight given its place in the game -- a completely optional encounter that doesn't even reward you for the effort. There's absolutely nothing pressuring you to do the fight if you don't want to.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:04
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You know what would've been the best way for that fight? If From introduce climbing mechanics, I could see that fight being a tad more different and fun. Why yes I've been playing too much Dragon's Dogma, why do you ask? 
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Jun 7, 2014 16:06
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Dirty Job posted:I'm not really sure how damage works. On the stat screen raw +9 says it deals something like 267 damage, while the normal +9 deals somewhere around 220. I have 40 dex and something like 37 strength. What does the + blue number next to it say when it's in your hand? That's the amount of damage it gains from you being good at stats. Raw weapons specifically gain a lot, lot less damage from stats in exchange for slightly upped base damage. It's meant to be used if you're really horrid at Dexterity but still want to get some mileage out of a rapier or something. (or if the weapon has absolutely gently caress-all for stat scaling and you want to squeeze the most physical damage out of it)
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Jun 7, 2014 16:11
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Shindragon posted:You know what would've been the best way for that fight? If From introduce climbing mechanics, I could see that fight being a tad more different and fun. Realistically, the game's control scheme is already fairly busy as it is, introducing climbing, even only for a few monsters, would be fairly problematic I suspect. Granted, it'd make fighting huge monsters much less silly and more interesting.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:13
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EvilCornbread posted:None, but previously the first time you got to him you had one attempt with effectively 5 giant souls. Might be just a glitch in my game this playthrough, though. This was not true for me. I whaled on the dude for a solid two minutes and he never attacked me. I think the being able to do full damage to him was the glitch. And as to boss design talk Smough and Nito were the two best in the series (I've never actually played through the first game) but Looking Glass Knight is the loving bomb.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:13
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Toadsmash posted:Re Ancient Dragon: in all fairness, I think it's extremely tricky for them to nail the right balance with the giant monster bosses, though they could certainly have done better here. I think the wyverns in Dragon Aerie are one of the series' best examples of how to do the "monstrous" type enemies right -- huge, heavily damaging attacks that (to me at least) are not completely trivial to avoid, but don't have completely obnoxious requirements for where to stand or what you should wear to deal with them. But at the same time, those wyverns aren't in any way...gamily handicapped, for lack of a better term. Every single end of them is pointy and dangerous. They can stomp on you, they can snap at you, they can breathe fire at you both on the ground and in the air, they can smash you with their tail. That pretty much covers the bases of what I'd expect them to be able to do. The design doesn't suggest that they pulled punches with their capabilities because it's a game and hey, players are expected to be able to dodge this stuff, but none of that stuff is gimmicky and stupid to avoid, either. I think the Rotten also nailed that balance really well. I kinda agree with you, I don't get why people complain about the Ancient Dragon because I really don't see him as a boss. Like, hey, remember the Everlasting Dragon in Dark Souls I, that was a kinda hard fight because he was INVINCIBLE. Compared to that, I just think it's cool that they decided to program some attacks for a boss that's (in my mind) supposed to be nigh invulnerable and immensely strong.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:13
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Realistically, the game's control scheme is already fairly busy as it is, introducing climbing, even only for a few monsters, would be fairly problematic I suspect. Granted, it'd make fighting huge monsters much less silly and more interesting. Also, as much as I love Dragon's Dogma, this goes back to the "super gamey handicaps" I mentioned -- if you could climb onto Ancient Dragon or RRA, why wouldn't they just roll over and smash you to pieces with their weight?
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Jun 7, 2014 16:17
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Dirty Job posted:I'm not really sure how damage works. On the stat screen raw +9 says it deals something like 267 damage, while the normal +9 deals somewhere around 220. I have 40 dex and something like 37 strength. Yeah, that's the base damage. The blue number with the plus sign is what you gain from stat scaling. With a falchion, the dex scaling is assuredly going to come out on top.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:18
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Realistically, the game's control scheme is already fairly busy as it is, introducing climbing, even only for a few monsters, would be fairly problematic I suspect. Granted, it'd make fighting huge monsters much less silly and more interesting. Indeed, like don't tell me you wouldn't the idea of climbing on Freja's armor'd body and getting a chance to stab it on the top of the face. Regardless, yeah Ancient Dragon is a lovely rear end fight. Way too much health, and the attacks will one shot you. Granted if you are using Flash Sweat and wearing the hex armor and double handling a gyrm great shield, then death poses little threat but even with that the fight is just one long slog. You guys gotta admit though, he does have a pretty kick rear end theme.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:20
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Dirty Job posted:I'm not really sure how damage works. On the stat screen raw +9 says it deals something like 267 damage, while the normal +9 deals somewhere around 220. I have 40 dex and something like 37 strength. Every weapon has a base damage, and for the most part they all additionally scale with certain stats, represented by letter grades. So, for example, a weapon with D scaling in Dex will receive a very minor boost in damage with high Dex, whereas a weapon with S scaling in Dex will receive a significant boost if you've got a high Dex score. If a weapon has no scaling in a certain stat, then it receives no benefit from that stat--for example, most uninfused physical weapons have no Int scaling, so you won't get any benefit from using them with high Int. Making a weapon Raw boosts the base damage but removes scaling. The stats screen when you go to change weapons only shows the base damage of the weapon with no scaling applied, so when you compare a regular +9 Falchion to a raw +9 Falchion there the raw version has a higher number. In reality, however, with your stats the scaling on the base Falchion is going to give you much more than 47 extra points of damage, so by adding the Raw infusion you've actually significantly cut your damage. In general, Raw infusion isn't worth it. The only time you'd want to use it is if you're deliberately keeping all of your damage stats low, and I think even then there are better options. Opposing Farce fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 16:26
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Shindragon posted:Indeed, like don't tell me you wouldn't the idea of climbing on Freja's armor'd body and getting a chance to stab it on the top of the face. Regardless, yeah Ancient Dragon is a lovely rear end fight. Way too much health, and the attacks will one shot you. Granted if you are using Flash Sweat and wearing the hex armor and double handling a gyrm great shield, then death poses little threat but even with that the fight is just one long slog. 
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Jun 7, 2014 16:29
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Since we are talking about bad bosses here's my two cents. Bad bosses in Dark souls 2: 1.) Dragon rider. He's slow and dumb. You can literally circle strafe him to death and never need to dodge or block his attacks. The one with two could have been more intresting but the second dragon rider dies too fast. It's almost like they were afraid the boss could be too hard or something? 2.) Freja. Way too easy to put into a pattern where shes not dangerous at all. Only real danger is the smaller spiders and they aren't a real threat with a weapon with decent speed. 3.) King Venrick. Same as dragon rider. Not a real danger. Just circle strafe and attack when it's safe. He will never do anything suprising and does not require you to wait for some attack thats dangerous. Ever. 4.) Nashandra. Predicatble and not hard to dodge ever. Long range she will just spam some stupid lazer thats probably the best place to deal with her. Close up she gets a bit random but due to being slow and dumb she will rarely get close anyway. Still not hard to melee anyway. Even if something bad happens you can just pull back and heal. Shares the same problem with Freja for being easy to put into a pattern where she becomes a nonissue. Might be dumber than I give her credit for, not really had to practice her much. 5.) Skeleton lords. Only a challenge if you kill the 3 skeletons lords right away and you can't kill the skeletons fast enough. You barely have to pay attention in this fight. The lords just swing their weapons and spam fireballs. Barely a boss fight. 6.) Prowling magus isn't even a boss. 7.) Neither is Royal Rat Vanguard. Fight is pretty much just kill a few rats then kill the Mohawk rat. The end. 8.) Demon of Song. Too easy to put into a predictable pattern. Just stand in front of her and walk away over and over no matter what she does. Then punch her in the face. 9.) While not really that bad Throne Defender and Throne Watcher get a mention for being just two big guys that swing their swords while buffing them later in the fight. If they did more than that they wouldn't be so terrible. Hell, the two dragon riders had more synergy going on than these two clowns. Bad bosses in Dark souls 1: 1.) Second butt demon. Too easy to put into a pattern. 2.) Pinwheel. Does very little and dies way too fast. The Bed of Chaos is fine, get gud scrubs. 
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Jun 7, 2014 16:30
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Iretep posted:3.) King Venrick. Same as dragon rider. Not a real danger. haha ok. This guy that can one shot you is no real danger.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:32
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kazil posted:haha ok. Considering he can never hit you if you cling to his left leg? Yes.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:36
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kazil posted:haha ok. Slow, stupid, doesn't punish staggering; power means nothing when the boss is as dumb as a sack of bricks. quote:9.) While not really that bad Throne Defender and Throne Watcher get a mention for being just two big guys that swing their swords while buffing them later in the fight. If they did more than that they wouldn't be so terrible. Hell, the two dragon riders had more synergy going on than these two clowns. The two don't work together, they're just two mobs with the same attack patterns as everything else thrown into a room and called a boss.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:36
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Genocyber posted:Considering he can never hit you if you cling to his left leg? Yes. And if you gently caress up, even once, you'll probably die. That doesn't mean there is no danger. And honestly, if you are gauging bosses based on how difficult they are instead of how fun they are, you are probably a sperglord.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:39
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kazil posted:And if you gently caress up, even once, you'll probably die. That doesn't mean there is no danger. Fun and difficulty are often (but not always) linked 
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Jun 7, 2014 16:41
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Night Blade posted:The two don't work together, they're just two mobs with the same attack patterns as everything else thrown into a room and called a boss. Unless you leave one at full health while taking the other down and then it heals the first one to full  (this only happened the first time I fought them but that was a seriously "oh come on" moment.)
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Jun 7, 2014 16:42
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Iretep posted:Since we are talking about bad bosses here's my two cents. I think it's a good thing for a potential first boss to be predictable and slow. Dark Souls II is designed around newcomers to the series and I think the Dragonrider is very similar to the Tauros Demon both in difficulty and setting. They teach you about how to block, when to attack, and that it's a good idea to circle-strafe - some things that aren't obvious to new players. To be fair, I'd love it if the game had a difficulty setting. The entire game is scaled down to allow for new players, but for old fans of the series a lot of the bosses are too passive and weak to create the same feeling you had when you played Dark Souls (or Demon Souls, I assume) for the first time.
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Jun 7, 2014 16:43
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Iretep posted:Since we are talking about bad bosses here's my two cents. This is why dark souls 2 isn't as good as ds1
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Jun 7, 2014 16:49
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Iretep posted:Bad bosses in Dark souls 1: All three butt demons are completely trivial because they have the same patterns, though at least the first one gets a pass for being a tutorial. Pinwheel is Pinwheel. The Bed of Chaos is at least a little more interesting, but I would never dream of calling it 'fun'. It's impossible for the Moonlight Butterfly to kill you if you have even basic dodging skills, and either having a spell or bringing the witch NPC trivializes it even further. Sif is super easy to put into a pattern where she'll never hit you if you stay under her. Same with Centipede. Taurus has his dumb plummet attack gimmick that's easy to use against him, but even if you don't the biggest danger is getting knocked off sometimes maybe. Seath has a perfect spot next to his left tentacle-leg that makes it impossible for him to hit you with anything. Some bosses are easy to put into patterns in both games. I don't think that's the only metric that should be used to define good/bad!
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Jun 7, 2014 16:52
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It's not simply about things being easy, it's about things being obviously broken and/or stupid. Sif can be pretty easy depending on what build you're using - but there isn't anyone alive who will say that the boss is not a memorable one. Also: There's a recurring issue in this game's boss design in which they don't punish you for using a predictable video game thing in order gain an advantage. Nashandra, and Fake Ornstein attempt to employ this (AOE); but since the windup is so huge and the AOE so tiny; it's not even really an issue. Many times you can just sit under a boss; watch their attacks phase harmlessly through you, and win the game. Smelter Demon is a good boss for all of the wrong reasons. Within this game's faulty mechanics he punishes the predictable behavior that carries a lot of people through the game. You can't stand close to him, and you can't hug block. His AOE is also requires you to play safe and attack from range while he has his sword plunged into the ground. Hell; if you time it right you can even run in after he AOEs to get some free hits in. Fun stuff. Night Blade fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 17:00
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Night Blade posted:It's not simply about things being easy, it's about things being obviously broken and/or stupid. Tell us more about how DS2 bosses are all bad and can't hold a candle to DS1 bosses 
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Jun 7, 2014 17:04
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say if you manage to kill all of the Skeleton Lords at the same time and are fighting by yourself, you are probably going to die. Those pinwheel skeles attack super often and disrupt your attacks. I did that but was using some crappy Light Armor at the time and kept getting wrecked.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:04
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kazil posted:Tell us more about how DS2 bosses are all bad and can't hold a candle to DS1 bosses You are stupid.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:10
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Just make a point to ignore everything else and chase the pinwheels down like a bat out of hell as soon as you spot one.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:11
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Night Blade posted:You are stupid. It's funny because you are the one that posts a ton in the DS2 thread about how much you hate DS2. It's also funny because you claim the bosses are poorly designed and then posted a video of you fighting the RRA and getting toxic and getting hit like a dozen times and only winning because you had a billion HP.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:12
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Toadsmash posted:Just make a point to ignore everything else and chase the pinwheels down like a bat out of hell as soon as you spot one. Yeah the wheel skeletons aren't so bad here. They interrupt your attack but they only hit you once.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:14
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Almost every boss in DS1 can be solved with hug + block so I don't understand that complaint.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:15
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Night Blade posted:You are stupid. Just out of interest, did you play Demon's Soul? If so did you play it before or after DkS 1?
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Jun 7, 2014 17:16
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Night Blade posted:Yeah the wheel skeletons aren't so bad here. They interrupt your attack but they only hit you once. The wheel skeletons don't have much oomph this time around. They seem to just spin for a couple meters then peel out. Those fuckers in the Catacombs won't stop until you're grounded into meat patties.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:16
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Night Blade posted:There's a recurring issue in this game's boss design in which they don't punish you for using a predictable video game thing in order gain an advantage. Nashandra, and Fake Ornstein attempt to employ this (AOE); but since the windup is so huge and the AOE so tiny; it's not even really an issue. Many times you can just sit under a boss; watch their attacks phase harmlessly through you, and win the game. That's a really good point, and it's especially noticeable with healing since a lot of minor enemies actively punish you for using estus by running up to you and attacking when you try to heal. I don't remember any boss doing the same and it makes lifegems pretty much useless once you've got around 8 estus flasks since there's no benefit of using quicker heals when you've got plenty of time to drink estus. Even when fighting multiple enemies there's never a single enemy rushing to attack you if you run away to heal, with the only exception being the dual Pursuers and perhaps the Ruin Sentinels, and because of that those are exceptionally hard.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:19
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Jordbo posted:Even when fighting multiple enemies there's never a single enemy rushing to attack you if you run away to heal, with the only exception being the dual Pursuers and perhaps the Ruin Sentinels, and because of that those are exceptionally hard. There are several bosses that run after you if you try to put distance between you and them and try to heal.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:24
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Lets! Get! Weird! posted:There are several bosses that run after you if you try to put distance between you and them and try to heal. Okay! I just couldn't think of one, and I haven't had a problem with it as far as I can remember. Do you have an example?
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Jun 7, 2014 17:26
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Hello thread, it's another day, and I'm ready to be angry at other people for liking or not liking things about Dark Souls, what is the subject on this fine morn?
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Jun 7, 2014 17:27
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Control Volume posted:Hello thread, it's another day, and I'm ready to be angry at other people for liking or not liking things about Dark Souls, what is the subject on this fine morn?
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Jun 7, 2014 17:27
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neetengie posted:poo poo bosses in DaS2 compared to 1. Ah, an old classic, excellent choice.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:29
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Jordbo posted:Okay! I just couldn't think of one, and I haven't had a problem with it as far as I can remember. Do you have an example? Most of them do? As a melee at least, the main method of healing is to make a boss whiff an attack and use an opening that you'd normally use to attack them.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:40
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