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Waroduce posted:My local bookstore just got Ahriman: Exile, The Malcharian Crusade : Angel of Fire, DeathWatch (i think i read), RavenWing, Death of Integrity, Death of Antagonis and Path of the Eldar as new books in the warham section. Anything worth picking up? I enjoyed Ahriman:Exile, but then again I also enjoyed Vengeful Spirit so my opinions are apparently wrong
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Jun 4, 2014 19:38
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Waroduce posted:My local bookstore just got Ahriman: Exile, The Malcharian Crusade : Angel of Fire, DeathWatch (i think i read), RavenWing, Death of Integrity, Death of Antagonis and Path of the Eldar as new books in the warham section. Anything worth picking up? Priests of Mars is good. I enjoyed it. Got the Night Lords Omnibus coming soon, can't wait.
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Jun 4, 2014 19:38
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Skarsnik posted:I enjoyed Ahriman:Exile, but then again I also enjoyed Vengeful Spirit so my opinions are apparently wrong Ahriman: Exile lays down a shitload of clues for things for a yet-to-be-published novel. It may one day be a great part one, as it is now it's merely good.
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Jun 4, 2014 19:41
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Waroduce posted:How bad is mcneils ultramarine series
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Jun 4, 2014 19:57
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:Is that the word-slurry with the Khorne train? Yup, that's the one. I read it nearly a decade ago and thought it was horrible. And my younger me had considerably lower standards than my present self.
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Jun 4, 2014 20:06
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Fried Chicken posted:Man, if we are going with GW blatently ripping something off, don't forget this: GW actually acknowledges that it was a copy of Scarface. They talked about it in a WD where they were reminiscing about past editions I think, probably around when 4th ed dropped or for the 25th anniversary of GW or something.
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Jun 4, 2014 20:10
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Waroduce posted:My local bookstore just got Ahriman: Exile, The Malcharian Crusade : Angel of Fire, DeathWatch (i think i read), RavenWing, Death of Integrity, Death of Antagonis and Path of the Eldar as new books in the warham section. Anything worth picking up? Ahriman and Priests were pretty good in my reckoning. Death of Integrity wasn't anything to write home about, but it wasn't bad per se. I couldn't finish reading Death of Antagonis. There's something about how the guy writes that just made my teeth grate.
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Jun 4, 2014 23:02
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Waroduce posted:How bad is mcneils ultramarine series Verrrrrry meh all around, regret not getting something more interesting
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Jun 5, 2014 01:33
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I enjoyed it, but it was also my first time reading anything to do with warhammer 40k.
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Jun 5, 2014 02:46
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So I'm reading The Emperor's Gift and I stumbled on this line:Aaron Demski-Bowden posted:‘We live in the Last Age of Man,’ Vasilla said softly. ‘This millennium hasn’t yet reached half its span, and it’s already the darkest ever faced by humanity. It will be the last one, Hyperion. The last, before everything finally falls black.’ Hyperion replies with the usual "Man will never die" kind of Space Marine confidence, but the funny thing is? Vasilla's right. There will never be anything written past M40.999, there's nothing in 41k besides a formless void. And of course ADB knows it as well.... Funny man, that ADB. 
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Jun 5, 2014 06:56
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Isn't a bunch of the Ciaphas Cain stuff written in 41k and going into 42? Or am I completely misunderstanding your post? e: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M42 Skarsnik fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 08:12
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Skarsnik posted:Isn't a bunch of the Ciaphas Cain stuff written in 41k and going into 42? Or am I completely misunderstanding your post? Assuming that the editors of Lexicanum haven't missed any extant references to M42, it's funny that the overwhelming majority of them are from those Cain books, which makes sense as they're also pretty much the only 40k novels that use that (delightful) framing device. I'm assuming that they were permitted because they don't actually reveal anything except that Mankind was able to keep publishing historical works for at least a couple of centuries into M42, and that in turn doesn't really mean anything--even if the forces arrayed against the Imperium well and truly achieved an irreversible tipping point around 000.M42, there'd still be time for a lot of deckchair-rearranging while Abaddon, the Hive Fleets, etc., ground their way towards Terra. (A more cynical interpretation is that the references slipped past the sphincter of BL's canon editors.) None of which, IMO, takes away from the possibility that the exchange jng alluded to was intended, tongue-in-cheek, by ADB. 'M42 and beyond are dark' is pretty clearly a general rule of GW's published canon even if exceptions exist.
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Jun 5, 2014 10:12
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Or maybe it's because ADB knows that the Black Legion is going to conquer Cadia (but not the space around) because he's going to write about it in his new series. The final book, anyway.
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Jun 5, 2014 14:43
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Ardent Communist posted:Or maybe it's because ADB knows that the Black Legion is going to conquer Cadia (but not the space around) because he's going to write about it in his new series. The final book, anyway. How would they win on the ground without air/space superiority?
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Jun 5, 2014 15:12
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By wining the Eye of Terror campaign but having GW handwave the results.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:21
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Trast posted:How would they win on the ground without air/space superiority? With demons or something. Use your imagination.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:25
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Maybe magnus or one of the other fallen primarchs get their heads outta their asses and helps
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Jun 5, 2014 15:54
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Mechafunkzilla posted:With demons or something. Use your imagination. I can go with that. I just expected some silly, convoluted explanation. But "demons helps, don't worry about it" seems much more fun.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:59
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The fiction that they ended up using is, in fact, essentially "daemons." The Word Bearers were a strong presence in the invasion and summoned shitloads of daemons as part of it. They also ended up summoning a massive fuckoff Warp storm that cut off Imperial supply lines. So the result of the Crusade is that the entirety of Battlefleet Gothic (along with part of BF Solar) is stuck there without reinforcements and that the Imperial forces on Cadia have had to pull back and concentrate on holding Kasr Gallan.
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Jun 5, 2014 16:19
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Waroduce posted:My local bookstore just got Ahriman: Exile, The Malcharian Crusade : Angel of Fire, DeathWatch (i think i read), RavenWing, Death of Integrity, Death of Antagonis and Path of the Eldar as new books in the warham section. Anything worth picking up? Angel of Fire owns so loving hard. I've never enjoyed a 40k series as much as the Macharius series.
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Jun 6, 2014 02:39
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Waroduce posted:Maybe magnus or one of the other fallen primarchs get their heads outta their asses and helps Magnus I couldn't see going all in with Abbaddon. Angron might do it just to benchpress a Titan. Morty possibly just to spread more disease and plague to a new planet (and subsequentially make Cadia unusable to Chaos Unaligned as Nergle claimed it as His). Logar is to busy writing a new bible on his foreskin. And Alpharius...who the gently caress knows. Fulgrum might be to busy buggering himself with gene enhanced pineapples. If anything Lucius and Fabulous Bile might help them turn the tide for more favor.
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Jun 6, 2014 07:11
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You really can't imagine how Chaos could have taken the planet without space superiority? Cadia, with it's super defensible cities that are designed like warrens. That neither side wants to destroy with huge weapons because the pylons do something to the Warp. We're taking about Chaos. Billions of obedient slaves, most of the Space Marines with hundreds of years of service, in all kinds of hellish environments, and the ability to conjure daemons from the ether? I could see a particularly effective invasion force, getting dropped in, despite losing most of the fleet to Battlefleet Gothic (or running cowardly) and taking a significant part of the surface. Even if the Imperials wanted to lay waste with their fleet, Chaos could seize fixed anti-ship missile batteries and laser silos (of which Cadia has plenty) and fire back. I mean, the Vietnamese never had air superiority, but with enough anti-aircraft and willingness to take some casualties, it didn't really matter.
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Jun 7, 2014 07:18
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That's rather the issue with all sci-fi when it comes to galactic-scale conflict: There's nothing an individual planet can really have (without employing Plot Device) that is worth a land assault for. Natural resources? Orbital Bombardment. Hospitable to human life? Orbital Bombardment. Physically lies in your path? Hello, 3D space. All set against a backdrop of near infinite alternative worlds to harvest whatever you require from. If you can take whatever orbital structures exist, the planet really isn't relevant apart from being a gravity well for it all to sit in.
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Jun 7, 2014 11:05
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Shockeh posted:That's rather the issue with all sci-fi when it comes to galactic-scale conflict: There's nothing an individual planet can really have (without employing Plot Device) that is worth a land assault for. Natural resources? Orbital Bombardment. Hospitable to human life? Orbital Bombardment. Physically lies in your path? Hello, 3D space. All set against a backdrop of near infinite alternative worlds to harvest whatever you require from. Excuse me? The infrastructure of a forgeworld is pointless? Food production of an agriworld? The billions of inhabitants (as bodies) of hiveworlds? All of that is worthless to an hypothetical conquering force?
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Jun 7, 2014 11:12
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Nephilm posted:Excuse me? The infrastructure of a forgeworld is pointless? Food production of an agriworld? The billions of inhabitants (as bodies) of hiveworlds? All of that is worthless to an hypothetical conquering force? For a non-warhammer galactic civilization, sure. Because a sensible space civilization would have all their production spacebased, most likely including agriculture on space habitats. Think about it: If you have space superiority, it's completely irrelevant if the production on a planet sits on the surface or in orbit around it. It's toast anyway. A sensible space civilization would teach those warhams-chucklefucks pretty fast how an orbital bombardment solves all your problems all the time.
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Jun 7, 2014 11:20
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If you want to go there, it's not a matter of space superiority, just impossible to intercept relativistic projectiles. But that's completely different from the tall assumption that you wouldn't even live on planets.
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Jun 7, 2014 12:11
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Libluini posted:For a non-warhammer galactic civilization, sure. Because a sensible space civilization would have all their production spacebased, most likely including agriculture on space habitats. Think about it: If you have space superiority, it's completely irrelevant if the production on a planet sits on the surface or in orbit around it. It's toast anyway. To be fair its only the Imperium that structures their worlds like this. The other alien races really just take planets to have a nice place to live or hang out or eat. That said, all the sensible space faring civilisations were wiped out during the Emperor's crusades 
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Jun 7, 2014 12:42
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Libluini posted:For a non-warhammer galactic civilization, sure. Because a sensible space civilization would have all their production spacebased, most likely including agriculture on space habitats. Think about it: If you have space superiority, it's completely irrelevant if the production on a planet sits on the surface or in orbit around it. It's toast anyway. They know it very well. The Imperium uses it all the drat time. It's called Exterminatus. The difference is that your "sensible" space civilization has decided to get into a genocide match with an empire that spans millions of planets and nigh endless numbers of ships and men. Great, you glassed ten Imperial planets. And they hunted down five of your space based production nodes in return, and invaded a couple of your planets and started wiping out (if you're a Xeno) or "converting to the Emperor's light", ie enslaving (if you happen to be a human splinter society) your civilian population. Now what? Because you've lost 25% of your nation and everything you've destroyed isn't even all the important targets in the nearest Imperial sub-sector, much less a measurable percentage of the Imperium as a whole. That's the thing. The Imperium is so vast, aggressive, and militaristic that only the strongest or most unique of opponents can withstand them. Why do the Eldar still exist? They can see the future and manipulate events to keep their craftworlds safe. And even then they often fail, losing whole craftworlds in the process, and are a dying race because of it. Why do the Dark Eldar still exist? They're hidden in the Webway where the Imperium can't get at them. Why does Chaos still exist? Same thing, just substitute "Eye of Terror" or "The Maelstrom" for "Webway". Though the ability of Chaos to take advantage of humanity's vastness by converting Imperial forces to Chaos' cause makes them one of only two factions that have a chance to bring down the Imperium in the long run. Why do the Necrons still exist? They're hidden on dead worlds that no one wants. Why do the Orks still exist? Because they breed vast numbers in short periods of times and are fungal based and as such any place that once had Orks will have them again unless the planet's been burned down to bare rock or everything's been eaten by Bugs. Why do the Tyrannids still exist? They have numbers to match those of the Imperium and are constantly on the move, devouring everything in their path and are the other faction who might "win"1. Why do the Tau still exists? The Tyrannid invasion drew away the Damocles Crusade that would have destroyed them. Even so, the Tau are facing the Bugs themselves now, and if the universe were to go on2 would likely get eaten the way the Squats were. In short, then, your "sensible space civilization" would need to have more than just an orbital bombardment and space-based production doctrine to survive. Because unless you're already so vast that we'd have heard of you (we haven't) you run into the same problem that Lee did versus Grant but like a million times worse. In the closing phases of the American Civil War, Grant was willing and able to lose two or three men for every one that Lee did simply because he outnumbered Lee four to one. Fighting the Imperium is the same way. They can trade you whole planets worth of population and resources to get at just one of your production facilities. And they will, because most Imperial Commanders care more about killing you than preserving their own resources. In the end, when they've lost two sub-sectors worth of people and resources but a Space Marine has planted a banner of victory through your last admiral's chest on the bridge of your last warship, the Imperial archives will make a note about the minor conflict with the Libluini species that were Exterminated in M40.714. And that is all that will be left of you. That's what "There is Only War" means. Sensible people and races are simply stepped on by the great powers because those powers have the ability and will to sacrifice whatever it takes to destroy you, and only those opponents who can match that can survive. 1 = This will, of course, never happen. Because it's become quite clear that the 40k universe will never actually advance beyond M40.999. Aaron Dembski-Bowden had a line about that in one of his novels, where one characterizes M40 as "the last millenium before the endless black" which is just a snarky way of commenting that GW will never do Warhammer 41,000. 2 = It won't. See 1 above. e: Footnotes e2: Forgot the Necrons jng2058 fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 17:25
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Orks are also by far the most numerous species in the galaxy. It's just the thing an Ork really wants to do is fight, and the closest opponent to hand is usually another Ork.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:29
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VanSandman posted:Orks are also by far the most numerous species in the galaxy. It's just the thing an Ork really wants to do is fight, and the closest opponent to hand is usually another Ork. True enough. gently caress, even the smart ones like Ghazghkull will intentionally let their best enemies get away just so there can be a better fight in the future. The dumb ones, which is most of them, just start beating the brains in of the nearest anything. That kind of psychology is detrimental to winning which is why I don't list the Orks as being an existential threat to the Imperium the way Chaos and the Bugs are. The former are the ultimate internal threat, the latter the external. The Orks can never get organized and stay organized long enough to actually destroy the Imperium.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:34
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jng2058 posted:The Orks can never get organized and stay organized long enough to actually destroy the Imperium. Isn't that's what the Imperium thought until Ghazghkull? If another Ork Warboss of his caliber or greater rises from someplace like the Octurius War and manages to band together the Orks into one big gently caress off Waagh then the Empire is pretty much screwed.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:39
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jng2058 posted:True enough. gently caress, even the smart ones like Ghazghkull will intentionally let their best enemies get away just so there can be a better fight in the future. The dumb ones, which is most of them, just start beating the brains in of the nearest anything. Oh they CAN, hypothetically, it's just that such a capable Ork will be a recognized threat and Exterminatus'd long before it gets Big Enuff to lead a Waaaaaugh of sufficient magnitude to hurt the Imperium.
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Jun 7, 2014 17:40
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AndyElusive posted:Isn't that's what the Imperium thought until Ghazghkull? But that's the thing. Even Ghazghkull doesn't want to win. Not in the "destroy your empire and annihilate your species" form of winning. What the Orks want is the next big fight. That's why the Orks don't use Exterminatus. They want enemies to bash, and will leave chunks of your empire alone just to make sure they have someone else to fight in a few years. Also, as VanSandman points out, they're vulnerable to massive in-fighting if you can manage to kill or discredit the current Warboss. Finally, even Ghazghkull is just a local threat. He's invaded Armageddon a couple of times and devastated a couple of sub-sectors but in the long run, the Imperium has sub-sectors to lose. It would take centuries if not millennium for Ghazghkull to build up enough firepower to actually sweep the galaxy and you can be sure that long before that some Imperial Assassin would get in a lucky shot or some Marine suicide squad would detonate his flagship or something. Hell, all you really need to do is let Ghazghkull know that Yarrick's waiting for him on planet Trappus VII, wait until he lands, then virus bomb the whole planet with him on it. Then the whole thing collapses into Ork on Ork violence as every drat local Warboss decides he's going to be the next in charge. Which is just how they like it.
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Jun 7, 2014 18:01
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I thought the reason why the imperium fought tooth and nail for these worlds instead of glassing them from the sky is simply because they cannot rebuild the infrastructure that exists on these worlds. While i am sure the tech priests somewhere have a bunch of machines for building STC based factories, the people who know how to operate those machines are very few. Even more so the people who would actually be allowed to use those factories is even less. Isn't there a bunch of stuff that is only built one world now due to the fact that nobody has the faintest idea how the parts that are needed are made anymore? E.g. Baneblade which is only built on mars?
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Jun 7, 2014 18:20
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Sure, but those places are few and far between. Yes, Armageddon is one of them...there are a lot of Armageddon Pattern vehicles and weapons that would be lost forever if Armageddon was destroyed. That's also why Ghazghkull keeps landing there. It's a planet the Imperium has to defend, and as such he can always get a good fight there. But maybe one planet in ten thousand is that crucial. You can afford to lose DipShittus IX, Weedonwantcha III, and Hopeless XII and only the local sub-sector will care much, if at all. Also recall that while a a lot of the very best gear requires specialist Forge Worlds to make, most Imperial gear doesn't. Any planet with 21st century tech, which is most of them, can make lasguns and Leman Russ Tanks in vast numbers. Same with Basilisk artillery, flak armor, and grenades. Losing a critical Forge Worlds sucks rear end, no question, but you can still end up putting hundreds of thousands of Guardsmen onto the line even if they don't have plasma or melta weaponry anymore. You'll just have to make do with missile launchers and heavy bolters, son.
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Jun 7, 2014 18:45
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jng2058 posted:They know it very well. The Imperium uses it all the drat time. It's called Exterminatus. The difference is that your "sensible" space civilization has decided to get into a genocide match with an empire that spans millions of planets and nigh endless numbers of ships and men. Great, you glassed ten Imperial planets. And they hunted down five of your space based production nodes in return, and invaded a couple of your planets and started wiping out (if you're a Xeno) or "converting to the Emperor's light", ie enslaving (if you happen to be a human splinter society) your civilian population. Now what? Because you've lost 25% of your nation and everything you've destroyed isn't even all the important targets in the nearest Imperial sub-sector, much less a measurable percentage of the Imperium as a whole. This is a lot of words to say "my fantasy scifi universe can beat any hard scifi universe"
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Jun 7, 2014 19:17
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jng2058 posted:They know it very well. The Imperium uses it all the drat time. It's called Exterminatus. The difference is that your "sensible" space civilization has decided to get into a genocide match with an empire that spans millions of planets and nigh endless numbers of ships and men. Great, you glassed ten Imperial planets. And they hunted down five of your space based production nodes in return, and invaded a couple of your planets and started wiping out (if you're a Xeno) or "converting to the Emperor's light", ie enslaving (if you happen to be a human splinter society) your civilian population. Now what? Because you've lost 25% of your nation and everything you've destroyed isn't even all the important targets in the nearest Imperial sub-sector, much less a measurable percentage of the Imperium as a whole. At this point I should mention there is a book series describing how the Damocles Crusade essentially ran into a lot of trouble by themselves and had to be abandoned due to a mixture of underestimating the Tau and political infighting. So it wasn't all about space bugs. To continue this thought-experiment, a sensible civilization confronted with an implacable, overwhelming enemy like the Imperium has still a few options left instead of choosing boring old extinction. Option A: Simply avoiding the conflict by moving into space unused by the Imperium (systems or star clusters considered dead or interdicted). If the Imperium can't find you, you win by continuing your existence. This is something I call the Eldar-way, because of their craftsworlds. Option B: Doing enough damage to bring an Imperial crusade to a grinding halt, but not enough damage to force the Imperium to large-scale mobilize against you. Like many other species the Imperium doesn't bother with, because fighting them on top of everything else would be a waste of ressources. This could be called the Tau-way, especially if this hypothetical society takes on other xenos as allies like the Tau, to multiply it's forces. Option C: Fleeing. Since this society is more or less space based already, they have a lot less trouble evacuating their population centers. Similar to Option A, just more extreme. The entire civilization relocates far enough away the Imperium can't or won't follow them. Option D: No, gently caress you! In this case the civilization is too aggressive to consider the other options and instead goes full on genocidal: It will seed as many Von-Neumann machines in empty, unused solar systems as possible without it's doomed front instantly collapsing. The Imperium inevitably wins and then has to retreat because wild, uncontrolled swarms of self-replicating machines have made living in this sector of the galaxy impossible. Thinking about it, since the galaxy is really, really large, it could be that the Imperium already has displaced some of the smarter species this way. But let's stay with the known species in-fiction. The Tyranids are actually a good example of this thought-experiment themselves, they are one of those sensible "civilizations" I was talking about : Space-based and they consider planets only as a source of food and useful genetical material. Their "industry" is basically their ships and whatever they can plunder from worlds they pass by. Fighting them on the planets they flood with bio-organism is the stupidest way to fight them I can imagine, since this is a threat concentrated in their hive fleets floating in loving space were the common guardsman will never reach them, regardless of how often they die fighting the Tyranid menace. The reason the Imperium is in such trouble fighting the Tyranids is mostly this: The Tyranids are a sensible space-based civilization (more hard-science), the Imperium is a giant fashist fantasy (more soft-science) and so the Imperium only "wins" after great (horrific) heroic sacrifices, if at all. Something which isn't sustainable against someone who just harvests planets but has it's entire production base space-based. Blowing up a Tyranid-infested world makes an Inquisitor happy, but in the long run the Imperium just shoots itself in the foot, reloads and then shoots again.
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Jun 7, 2014 21:08
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Err... I kind of see what you're trying to do here, but you're picking terrible examples. The Imperium has ships too, and they fight the tyranid bioships (thus hurting the space-bound infrastructure you place such a big emphasis on), and the orbital battle is more often what ultimately determines the outcome. Yet, they engage in ground combat because both nids and humans need to control the surface for their own ends - tyranids need to neutralize planet-bound defenses and establish their harvesting ecosystem, and whatever other reasons the Imperium might have (protecting civillians/religious sites/critical infrastructure and resources), by maintaining control of the surface they also contribute to slowing down the nids and increase the net resource cost of the harvest. The (biggest) reason why the Tyranids are such a big threat to everything is that there's so many of them, since they're basically migrating in from another galaxy they already stripped bare: their numbers, by default, make any defensive action against them unsustainable unless more esoteric countermeasures are found. Should be noted that most means to resist them also make their bug-boners harder, since they feel throwing hivefleets upon hivefleets to the grinder is a good trade to learn/adapt against whatever tech or biological traits you're using to fight back. So that's Option B and D, and C and A face the realities that nids are very good at finding things to eat, relentless in their pursuit, and even if you successfully manage to evade them you're limiting your species to living in small, scattered groups scrapping a living from whatever rocks are left behind. Which I guess is a valid survival option, but doesn't accomplish much more than, well, surviving like 3rd class galactic vermin. Nephilm fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 22:51
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Most effective canonical countermeasure to hivefleets: A) Find an astropath B) Have them listen to "broadcasts" from a chunk of a tyranid bioship while it's trying to order its brood to attack another hivefleet C) Have them transmit those broadcasts to a hive fleet hostile to the one you listened to D) Watch the astropath die E) Watch the hivefleet collapse into temporary chaos F) Have Ciaphas Cain talk about "If only I knew what was coming" for half an hour G) Once he's done, have your fleet engage the nids before they can reestablish order H) Watch he carnage
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Jun 7, 2014 23:39
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Finished The Vengeful Spirit and thought it was a bit meh. Too many plot points and all of them half assed. Felt no real connection with any of the characters and it ruined Loken in particular for me. Also, having Horus return from the warp and casually mention in a few lines that he has been waging war with demons for like centuries amongst loving gods of chaos, but its no big deal really was loving lame and almost made me close of early. Started reading Scars and I'm actually very impressed so far. The book feels a lot more like the earlier HH books with decent protagonists. I hope the plot doesn't end up sucking butt.
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