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Fix posted:Because they'd rather you buy plastic during the hype before you buy the codex and realize you hate it. But the point is that I've been asking if there are any alternative explanations for what GW is doing, ones that don't involve them trying to trick people into buying models with lovely rules. The point being that (certain) people respond to the observations--that the release pacing appears to be a cynical strategy to sell people lovely units before they fully realize that they're poo poo--by going into GW-defense mode. I was wondering if any of that camp could put forth explanations that don't make GW look bad. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Jun 9, 2014 |
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Jun 9, 2014 08:34
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The part of games workshop setting street dates has no idea whether the rules are lovely or not. Arguably, the part of games workshop writing rules has no idea whether the rules are lovely or not.
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Jun 9, 2014 08:37
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So, now flyers can die from an immobilized result and the Nephilim fighter has a rule that lets it count weapon destroyed results as immobilized instead. Did 7th edition make the Nephilim better?  Maybe, but it's still over-priced and lame. At least it looks cool. 
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Jun 9, 2014 08:39
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Tadhg posted:*deletia* Never forget you have a terrible hobby filled with terrible people. My sympathy to your gaming group for their awful local situation; we have a handful of female players and generally try to avoid the worst of the spergy misogynists, but it's inevitably uphill work. Safety Factor posted:So, now flyers can die from an immobilized result and the Nephilim fighter has a rule that lets it count weapon destroyed results as immobilized instead. Did 7th edition make the Nephilim better? I would still usually rather tear off a gun (and thus cripple the enemy's ability to shoot back) than have a 1/3 chance of shooting them down immediately most of the time, although that would depend on what the enemy flyer was. But against a Heldrake, Night/Doom Scythe, and some of the others? Yeah, let's turn off those guns.
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Jun 9, 2014 09:30
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edit: I'm dumb
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Jun 9, 2014 09:33
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JerryLee posted:But the point is that I've been asking if there are any alternative explanations for what GW is doing, ones that don't involve them trying to trick people into buying models with lovely rules. Of course the release pacing is a strategy to sell more plastic. It seems pretty unlikely however that they would try to make the units' stats intentionally lovely in order to trick the customers. If stats and rules end up horrendously bad or over the top awesome, I would assume lack of play testing or whatever rather than malice.
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Jun 9, 2014 09:52
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twistedmentat posted:Dear lord, that thing is disgusting. Giger, rest his biomechanical penis sould, would go "That's too much". Which is a shame because the setting sounded kind of interesting but then tits, dicks, dicktits, and pregnant titdicks.
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Jun 9, 2014 11:35
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JerryLee posted:But the point is that I've been asking if there are any alternative explanations for what GW is doing, ones that don't involve them trying to trick people into buying models with lovely rules. It's a hype campaign. They're trying to get people excited for orks over the month rather than blowing their load in one go. It's their equivalent of a trailer Each week they're putting out another cool model, everyone goes "oh wow, look, orks are getting re done", then the following week a little more and then they release the codex as a grand finale. Personally I'm not going to buy any of the new kits immediately, but they sure as hell have gotten me excited about orks.
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Jun 9, 2014 11:47
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Cataphract posted:It's a hype campaign. They're trying to get people excited for orks over the month rather than blowing their load in one go. It's their equivalent of a trailer Yeah this isn't really any different from Wizards previewing cards from an upcoming set in the 4 weeks prior to release, and it's a smarter strategy by far than releasing models after the codex comes out. It's extremely unlikely that it's a calculated move designed to mask bad rules because, as was pointed out, it's very unlikely that Games Workshop knows/thinks the rules it made are bad.
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Jun 9, 2014 11:52
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TheChirurgeon posted:Yeah this isn't really any different from Wizards previewing cards from an upcoming set in the 4 weeks prior to release, and it's a smarter strategy by far than releasing models after the codex comes out. It's extremely unlikely that it's a calculated move designed to mask bad rules because, as was pointed out, it's very unlikely that Games Workshop knows/thinks the rules it made are bad. The thing is, I completely understand the hype cycle. As you say, Wizards does it with Magic. What Wizards doesn't do is begin selling you cards, as in taking your money for them, a week or more before you have a reasonable amount of information to decide whether a particular product is a good buy or not. Wizards doesn't, for example, expect you to buy a new Commander deck product with only one or two cards in it spoiled. They probably actually still could push it out to stores and have the casual market scoop them up off the shelves of Target, but they don't; they provide full spoilers, often at least a month in advance. The comparison between games is an imperfect one for a variety of reasons, and I'm perfectly willing to say Wizards's poo poo stinks when it does (my custom title is a result of this) but in terms of customer-facing philosophy they are often leaps and bounds behind GW. Obviously no knowledge of the relative value of units will be perfect until the metagame has had months to shake out (nor even then) but hopefully the difference between a white dwarf article with the stats for some units, and the full codex with all the units and army rules in context, is obvious to everyone. I should also clarify that I don't believe, at all, that GW deliberately makes lovely rules. Even they are presumably smart enough to realize that they'd rather make the next Riptide than the next Darktalon. What I can believe--and this isn't something I have a smoking gun on, it's just a hypothesis that fits the observed facts as well as anything I see--is that they realize that they're still consistently producing lemon units and rules, even in 'good' codices, and rather than take steps to address this (good playtesting, or just switching to a living-rules system) they apply the bandaid fix of keeping useful customer information low. This isn't just something they do with their newest plastic kit--it's a trend in their business decisions, from denying that third party supplies are a legitimate presence in the market, to shutting down their social media and telling you to buy magazines to look at the pretty pictures. No, it's not a solid or long-term solution to the problem of "why are some of our units bad  " but what about today's GW makes you think they're in the business of solid, long-term solutions?
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Jun 9, 2014 12:07
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JerryLee posted:The thing is, I completely understand the hype cycle. As you say, Wizards does it with Magic. What Wizards doesn't do is begin selling you cards, as in taking your money for them, a week or more before you have a reasonable amount of information to decide whether a particular product is a good buy or not. Wizards doesn't, for example, expect you to buy a new Commander deck product with only one or two cards in it spoiled. They probably actually still could push it out to stores and have the casual market scoop them up off the shelves of Target, but they don't; they provide full spoilers, often at least a month in advance. The comparison between games is an imperfect one for a variety of reasons, and I'm perfectly willing to say Wizards's poo poo stinks when it does (my custom title is a result of this) but in terms of customer-facing philosophy they are often leaps and bounds behind GW. Obviously no knowledge of the relative value of units will be perfect until the metagame has had months to shake out (nor even then) but hopefully the difference between a white dwarf article with the stats for some units, and the full codex with all the units and army rules in context, is obvious to everyone. Yeah, but magic cards don't require assembly or painting. This way, you can buy the model and have it table ready the day the codex drops.
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Jun 9, 2014 12:30
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JerryLee posted:No, it's not a solid or long-term solution to the problem of "why are some of our units bad I actually do not think they are in the business of solid, long-term solutions. Partially because people get frustrated with wacky balance invalidating their expensive army purchases for up to a decade. The thing I just do not fathom is how GW has the balls to shut down all manner of communication other than including some one-way promo material in White Dwarf. It is like they live in a past decade when it comes to the subject of communication and community. I do not get why they do not have official forums where their designers post. People interested in nerdy hobbies are starting to get used to and feel entitled to communicating with the people running the show (or well, at least the people in charge of making the stuff they care about). The fact that GW seems to move in the opposite direction seems so dumb. Ratflinger fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Jun 9, 2014 |
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Jun 9, 2014 12:42
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Ratflinger posted:The thing I just do not fathom is how GW has the balls to shut down all manner of communication other than including some one-way promo material in White Dwarf. It is like they live in a past decade when it comes to the subject of communication and community. I do not get why they do not have official forums where their designers post. Because people complained while still buying mountains of stuff anyway. It's not like GW ever showed even a hint of listening to or responding to customer complaints about anything other than damaged or missing product. If they're not going to take customer feedback, they don't really need to maintain the sort of relationship Facebook, a forum, Twitter, etc provide. It's just wasted effort for them. Forgeworld, notably, does appear to listen to feedback, releases playtest rules that often change dramatically for some models by release of the book they're in, and is (shock and gasp) seen in a much better light than GW prime. Despite being even more expensive (sorry, Austrailia) than GW, with often massive effort needed to assemble the units and really loving expensive books, people don't hate on FW nearly as much. I think it's at least partly due to the fact that there's at least a little back and forth with FW. Also, they tend to make even cooler poo poo that people drool over, but that's entirely their purpose I guess.
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Jun 9, 2014 13:11
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Sooooo I tried out 7th last night. 1000pts, my Tau vs another goon's CSM. I... rather enjoyed it, actually. Mission cards are fun, but I might just be saying that because my first turn I got three objective capture ones, two for the same objective, that were right by my start zone.  We FORGED THE NARRATIVE, in that we decided flavorful descriptions for the objectives and such. My favorite was a Mass Effect reference--we had placed some crates as terrain, and decided the objective behind them was a guy napping back there. Another was in a crater, so it FELL FROM SPACE. And his two units of CSMs hid in METUHL BAWXES, but then I very quickly took away his METUHL BAWXES.  I don't have my list on me, but I was Farsight Enclave. Two three man Crisis teams, a lone Crisis suit (my only non-drone casualty), a Broadside, a Riptide, a Commander, and drones for all of them. He had two CSM units with rhinos, some cultist with a chaos lord, a bomber of some kind (I forget what exactly), and a unit of two chaos spawn with a CSM lord on a bike. No psykers, so I've yet to try out the psychic phase. That bike+spawn unit engaged my commander in melee and smashed his shield drone, but did nothing to him before he escaped via jetpack. FORGE THE NARRATIVE, he just jetted around all their blows. Ended up having to end the game early because his kid was freaking out and I needed to get to bed to get to work in the morning, but I was up by quite a few VP (2 to 6, IIRC. He got first blood and one card, I got the three I mentioned plus a roll of 3 on the d3 for controlling three objectives one) on turn three, with more of my army left--I had taken down his rhinos, bike+spawn, and all of his Warlord's ablative cultists, at the cost of my lone crisis unit and a couple drones. Basically, I feel I really enjoy the current edition in a casual environment. I'm sure things like the objectives would have been frustrating in a tournament, but just drinking beer and having fun with a pal? Yeah, I dig it. The game could be a lot better, but it IS fun. I'm probably going to buy some used Tau and paint them up in Third Street Saints colors for RL play.
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Jun 9, 2014 13:22
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Played an impromptu 1750pt game with a buddy who came by yesterday, orks vs. spess mahreens. New Flash Gitz are pretty damned pro with tripled shots. I drove around spewing death out of the back of a battlewagon with great results in conjunction with Every Deffgun Ever. Also, the new ork walker is a fearsome thing when you carry a small mob of Burnaz in its belly. Spat 'em out to carve up a Land Raider and a tac squad, which made the whole thing worth it. Nevermind spewing death everywhere on its own. I approve.
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Jun 9, 2014 13:32
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Goat Bouillabaise posted:Spat 'em out to carve up a Land Raider Wait, how?
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Jun 9, 2014 13:33
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CyberLord XP posted:Wait, how? With FIRE, of course!
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Jun 9, 2014 13:37
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The Gate posted:If they're not going to take customer feedback If they're not taking any customer feedback then the rest is irrelevant - they've already failed at corporate 101
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Jun 9, 2014 13:46
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The Gate posted:Because people complained while still buying mountains of stuff anyway. It's not like GW ever showed even a hint of listening to or responding to customer complaints about anything other than damaged or missing product. If they're not going to take customer feedback, they don't really need to maintain the sort of relationship Facebook, a forum, Twitter, etc provide. It's just wasted effort for them. I've always found it a bit interesting that Forgeworld get a pass on their prices because they're a 'luxury', despite the entire game being a 'luxury' to begin with.
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Jun 9, 2014 13:47
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serious gaylord posted:I've always found it a bit interesting that Forgeworld get a pass on their prices because they're a 'luxury', despite the entire game being a 'luxury' to begin with. They're more niche and smaller scale, plus also their prices seem so much more fair, as an Australian, because everyone in the world pays the same price for their Forgeworld stuff.
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Jun 9, 2014 13:53
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serious gaylord posted:I've always found it a bit interesting that Forgeworld get a pass on their prices because they're a 'luxury', despite the entire game being a 'luxury' to begin with. Yeah, I don't really get it either. Then again, I've not taken the plunge into 30k or other FW stuff so it's not something I've ever had to deal with personally. NTRabbit posted:If they're not taking any customer feedback then the rest is irrelevant - they've already failed at corporate 101 I agree, but from GW's standpoint, they were spending time and effort doing something they (as far as anyone can tell) completely ignored. And they didn't have an experience PR person to even use them as positive tools either. I think they dropped the ball on it, but I'm not in charge, either.
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Jun 9, 2014 13:54
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CyberLord XP posted:Wait, how? Pretty sure he means he used the gorkanaut to hit the raider, and the burnas to hit a nearby tactical squad - exactly how this thing should be used until we see the codex.
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Jun 9, 2014 14:07
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I kind of figured they had a lose lose situation going on. Every social page they've ever had was overrun with idiots who didnt play, paint or buy anything from GW anymore whos sole existence was to just poo poo on every announcement and bitch and whinge until the thing was inevitably deleted. It just gave a false legitimacy to the 'loads of people hate x' crowd, because the same 4 people would be commenting and commenting. You'd have people on other forums using this as a true indicator that 'everyone hates centurions/wraithknights/etc' when it was just a bunch of sad lonely losers. So the way GW probably saw it was 'We post stuff about peoples models, comments are overrun with poo poo about prices. We post new stuff, comments are overrun with price chat. Why bother?' They shut their main page down and that did massively reduce the amount of poo poo flinging. People are less likely to troll their local store page after all, but it still continued. Anyone that saw a Warhammer world post would see it turned into idiot central too. I dont think its negatively impacted how many people buy their stuff, and an argument could be made that its helped them by removing the cancerous monkeys so it does actually make sense from their point of view.
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Jun 9, 2014 14:08
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Listening to consumer feedback isn't 'corporate 101', 'making money' is. GW hasn't really been doing that lately either (not since I've checked) but listening to consumers is dumb because 90 percent of the time the only time people say anything is a vocal minority expressing concerns that most people don't give a poo poo about. If I actually listened to consumers I'd be selling steel for cents on the dollar, I'd deliver it for free, and I'd charge 5 cents an hour for my labor, because customers don't really give a poo poo about anything beyond 'I want this thing I want for cheaper!' My margins are already razor-thin and I can beat a rivals bid by 15 percent and I'm still a loving scam artist. No one likes spending money and of course I wish my loving toys were cheaper, but they're not. I'm sure someone's going to point out 'well PP is cheaper!' (Even though they're pretty close as far as I can determine) and while we don't really know anything about back-end costs I'm sure a company GW's size has a lot more behind-the-scenes people than their next two competitors combined. GW is a lot of people who don't really directly make the company money and a lot of that cost has to be passed onto the consumer. A 50S RAYGUN fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jun 9, 2014 |
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Jun 9, 2014 14:31
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:Listening to consumer feedback isn't 'corporate 101', 'making money' is. Try reading some best business practise for a change, there's a reason PR departments exist and are well funded in the corporate world. They failed at communication, and instead of learning how to utilise it properly they compounded that failure by shutting it down completely.
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Jun 9, 2014 14:42
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I do note plastic molding gets a lot more economical as you do larger runs, because it costs the same to set up the molds regardless of how much stuff you're making. If you produce and sell more, you mitigate the costs faster. With GW's historical presence in the market, I would expect it to produce its minis in higher numbers than, say, Mantic, and thus should be able to sell them for less. If they have enough staff that they need to price things unusually high to support them, they may need to reconsider some of those staff positions, or open new revenue potential. I'm not expecting high-quality miniatures to be dirt cheap, but I see other companies selling comparable quality product for significantly less, while doing things like releasing rules for free and community building.
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Jun 9, 2014 14:44
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Esser-Z posted:I do note plastic molding gets a lot more economical as you do larger runs, because it costs the same to set up the molds regardless of how much stuff you're making. If you produce and sell more, you mitigate the costs faster. I'd argue that there are very few, if any, companies selling plastic that's as high quality as GW's. I'd also point out that no other companies run a chain of stores to sell their products in, so their overheads are minuscule compared to GW's.
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Jun 9, 2014 14:49
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Lungboy posted:I'd argue that there are very few, if any, companies selling plastic that's as high quality as GW's. I'd also point out that no other companies run a chain of stores to sell their products in, so their overheads are minuscule compared to GW's. Perhaps running a chain of their own stores and disallowing other retailers from selling their product via online storefronts, or even ordering the product in a sane why, is part of their revenue problem, eh? But we've all had this conversation before, and it's not going to go anywhere new. Do we know when exactly the new Ork codex is hitting? I like da boyz and rather hope they're good!
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Jun 9, 2014 14:50
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Esser-Z posted:Perhaps running a chain of their own stores and disallowing other retailers from selling their product via online storefronts, or even ordering the product in a sane why, is part of their revenue problem, eh? Disallowing store fronts is a problem with US consumer law, GW don't do it in the EU because they aren't allowed. I think GW have recently changed their ordering system again to make it less poo poo (although I admit it is a terrible system). VVV That's pretty much capitalism though, isn't it? They are a floated company, so it is their duty to try to make money for their shareholders. Nothing else. They have decided that disallowing 3rd party sellers from using GW advertising and having live baskets helps achieve their aim of making money. Your opinion that it's "lovely" would probably differ somewhat from the opinions of the shareholders who are making money from the practice. Lungboy fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Jun 9, 2014 |
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Jun 9, 2014 14:53
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Lungboy posted:Disallowing store fronts is a problem with US consumer law, GW don't do it in the EU because they aren't allowed. I think GW have recently changed their ordering system again to make it less poo poo (although I admit it is a terrible system). So... it's not their fault that they WANT to do a lovely thing, because it's legal for them to do so? I... don't follow, man. Seriously, though, I don't criticize GW because I hate them. I legit want them to be a better company, because I really like their minis! They're just... not.
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Jun 9, 2014 14:55
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NTRabbit posted:Try reading some best business practise for a change, there's a reason PR departments exist and are well funded in the corporate world. They failed at communication, and instead of learning how to utilise it properly they compounded that failure by shutting it down completely. GW are still working within a pseudo monopoly and GWs business practices echo other companies who are in a similar position (large market share, unique product lines within the market) like apple. The Best business practices you speak of are all well and good when you have competitors. Sure,a bunch of other game and miniature companies are nipping at GW's heels. But it's still a long while before Mantic, PP or any other miniature company are a real threat. Esser-Z posted:I do note plastic molding gets a lot more economical as you do larger runs, because it costs the same to set up the molds regardless of how much stuff you're making. If you produce and sell more, you mitigate the costs faster. One thing that I've always liked about GW is that they company is run top down and has, genereally speaking, a pretty good attitude in terms of doing right by its staff. Sure, they could fire a bunch of people, shift all manufacturing to china and you'd get cheaper minis. But I'm glad that they haven't. Also, no other mini company comes close on plastic kits. I own seasons 1-3 of the mantic dreadball kits and they do not come close to the GW plastics in any way shape or form.
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Jun 9, 2014 15:01
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The Gate posted:Because people complained while still buying mountains of stuff anyway. It's not like GW ever showed even a hint of listening to or responding to customer complaints about anything other than damaged or missing product. If they're not going to take customer feedback, they don't really need to maintain the sort of relationship Facebook, a forum, Twitter, etc provide. It's just wasted effort for them. Customer feedback is far from the only value gained from a visible, active internet and social media presence. In fact, I'd say it's one of the least valuable parts since the "feedback" received from social media users tends to be from a very vocal minority. Cultivating the perception among consumers that their voice is being heard and that they are part of the hobby instead of mere revenue streams is much more important than the actual suggestions/criticisms coming from most of them. There's many other benefits of a social media presence but GW doesn't seem to be interested in anything that is not 100% "here's our product, buy it".
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Jun 9, 2014 15:03
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Cataphract posted:One thing that I've always liked about GW is that they company is run top down and has, genereally speaking, a pretty good attitude in terms of doing right by its staff. Sure, they could fire a bunch of people, shift all manufacturing to china and you'd get cheaper minis. But I'm glad that they haven't. All of the horror stories that come from GW one-man shop runners are evidence that this maybe isn't the case?
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Jun 9, 2014 15:05
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Cataphract posted:Also, no other mini company comes close on plastic kits. You know, as much as people say that, I still haven't actually seen it in the field. It seems more and more like fantasy reinforced by repetition. Also, Apple does have competitors, like Samsung. Plenty of worldwide court battles in case you missed them. Apple also has an extensive PR strategy, though I'm not sure if it's in house or an agency.
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Jun 9, 2014 15:06
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Lord Of Texas posted:Customer feedback is far from the only value gained from a visible, active internet and social media presence. In fact, I'd say it's one of the least valuable parts since the "feedback" received from social media users tends to be from a very vocal minority. Does anyone actually remember the clusterfuck that was GWs official forums? Also, GW stocks have been climbing back since the January announcement that wiped out a good chunk of their share price. The Half yearly report is due next month and it'll be interesting to see what the various changes have yielded in the last six months
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Jun 9, 2014 15:07
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NTRabbit posted:You know, as much as people say that, I still haven't actually seen it in the field. It seems more and more like fantasy reinforced by repetition. I've played a number of systems, and looked at a huge chunk of other systems' models too, and I've yet to find plastics as good. I love Malifaux, and their plastics are nice but not to GW levels yet. I kind of wish they'd stayed with metal for longer to be honest.
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Jun 9, 2014 15:11
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Hey Post 9-11 User, do you have a list of the chaos stuff you have? Might be interested in some things, especially if you have DV cultists.
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Jun 9, 2014 15:14
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Lord Of Texas posted:All of the horror stories that come from GW one-man shop runners are evidence that this maybe isn't the case? I'm not sure what it's like elsewhere but here the store managers are on salaries and pick their own hours. Working alone is tough, I'll grant, but there's plenty of that in retail. NTRabbit posted:You know, as much as people say that, I still haven't actually seen it in the field. It seems more and more like fantasy reinforced by repetition. I can't speak for privateer press but I've got reaper, mantic and CMON models sitting in front of me and the quality is nowhere near as good as GW. The edges are fuzzy, the joins don't sit flush and there's a lot of cleanup required. quote:Also, Apple does have competitors, like Samsung. Plenty of worldwide court battles in case you missed them. Apple also has an extensive PR strategy, though I'm not sure if it's in house or an agency. Sure, but apple has a virtual monopoly in the same way as GW. The strength of their brand and uniqueness of their product sets them apart from other people in the market. There's plenty of other computer and phone companies but there's no one else making iPhones. GW is the same, there's plenty of miniature companies but no one else can make warhammers. (Obviously the better example is apple 10 years ago when the iPod was up agains any other mp3 players and there was zero competition) Anyway, the point is that Apple and GW are similar players in different markets and they act very similarly. They don't advertise their release schedule, the time between a products announcement and products sale date is very short, They don't engage with the "community" in the same way as smaller companies in their market do and they advertise themselves on product quality and design aesthetic over cheap prices.
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Jun 9, 2014 15:23
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I adore Privateer Press but their plastics are pretty bad compared to GW's.
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Jun 9, 2014 15:32
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Cataphract posted:I'm not sure what it's like elsewhere but here the store managers are on salaries and pick their own hours. Working alone is tough, I'll grant, but there's plenty of that in retail. The only hard plastic GW I have are Eldar, and they're honestly not anything to write home about, nor are the finecast examples I have. quote:Anyway, the point is that Apple and GW are similar players in different markets and they act very similarly. No they don't? Apple engages with its community using exactly the same channels as all of the companies in that field, because they're all tech companies who recognise the value of the internet, chiefly because the products they are sell are the way people access the internet on a daily basis. There's so little in common that I fail to see any reasonable way in which Apple and GW could be compared.
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Jun 9, 2014 15:33
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