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Yes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQt-dyPKzxA Bizzare.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:27
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One of these days we're going to have multiple CCW Heroes on scene at a rampage shooting, and they're going end up mistaking each other for the shooter. I propose a colored hat system be put into effect, to differentiate between Good Guys w/ Guns and Bad Guys w/ Guns.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:29
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paranoid randroid posted:One of these days we're going to have multiple CCW Heroes on scene at a rampage shooting, and they're going end up mistaking each other for the shooter. I propose a colored hat system be put into effect, to differentiate between Good Guys w/ Guns and Bad Guys w/ Guns. Yes, but then what happens if someone with a Good Guy with a Gun hat ends up killing a bunch of the other Good Guy with a Gun hat wearers? Oh man, my flag is falsing so hard right now...
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Jun 10, 2014 16:32
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Paul MaudDib posted:It's probably worth taking a break from celebrating the guy who turned up with a banned weapon on campus I think you're reaching here. I can't find any specific policies but the kid was an honor student, a senior, is continually referred to as a 'building monitor', and I can find circumstantial references to building monitors as part of PSU's emergency crisis response plan. It's very likely he was a student e: Deputy is the wrong word, from what I've read it looks like trained students would be used to supplement the emergency response plan by doing support activities such as restricting access to potentially dangerous buildings, passing notes and writing paperwork, assisting in search and rescue, etc. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 16:34
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They'll take away our hats. Nothing else can be done.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:35
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moths posted:The only thing that can stop N bad guys with guns is N+1 good guys with guns. Unless it's a deranged former Marine sharpshooter, in which case it's N+a bunch just to keep him busy. Everyone likes to imagine the scenarios where they're the most competent shooter around but it doesn't necessarily work out that nicely.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:37
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Well if you subscribe to my weekly newsletter, I'll let you in on the third hat color worn by For Serious Good Guys w/ Guns so you know who you can really trust and who is just an Agenda 21 Lizardman trying to blend in.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:37
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moths posted:It's ultimately irrelevant whether or not he was a hero. The lesson is that CCW isn't rampage vaccine. Lamenting it's absence after every other massacre was just demonstrated to be pissing into the wind. Careful. Are you saying that one incident proves or disproves the assertion?
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Jun 10, 2014 16:37
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The assertion that "just one brave CCW warrior could have prevented Combine / Aurora / Sandy Hook / naval shipyard / etc" has always been bullshit, but wasn't demonstrably so until now.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:41
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So one incident proves that the entire idea is nonsense? Mind you I'm not saying it isn't nonsense, I just think you're being sloppy.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:42
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SedanChair posted:So one incident proves that the entire idea is nonsense? Mind you I'm not saying it isn't nonsense, I just think you're being sloppy. It depends on how the assertion is constructed, but generally people say "If only there had been a good guy with a gun this wouldn't have happened" and here we have a case where there was a good? guy with a gun but it happened anyway, most likely because of a lack of training leading to poor situational awareness. I'd be with you if the argument was "by and large CCW can help prevent these kind of situations" but the one I've commonly heard is a hypothetical about how if there had been a CCW present bad thing not happen, which can be refuted by singular examples in demonstrating that an armed civilian at a shooting is not sufficient to prevent further bad thing. The root of this argument is that more people being armed is helpful, whereas the counter argument is that simply being armed without sufficient training is not helpful and can be harmful. In this case it seems like the CCW put himself in harms way for whatever reason, and ended up getting killed because of it.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:51
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Popular Thug Drink posted:The root of this argument is that more people being armed is helpful, whereas the counter argument is that simply being armed without sufficient training is not helpful and can be harmful. And the Game Theory argument is that you kill everyone quickly just in case one of them has a CCW. So there is no such thing as an innocent bystander now, its now a potential CCW holder.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:53
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happyhippy posted:And the Game Theory argument is that you kill everyone quickly just in case one of them has a CCW. Congratulations, you've hit upon an argument more specious than "if u had gun."
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Jun 10, 2014 16:56
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One example isn't a trend, but as far as I know, no spree killing has ever ended because of a citizen's intervention. (There's some shady reporting on a mall shooter, where a citizen had a gun but he was never seen by the shooter.) The talking point on this has been that it's because we live in a sad world without enough guns in the right hands. Which, big loving surprise, wasn't the problem. Not that this will affect anything. Gun advocate overlook hundreds of accidentally-shot children to showcase one intentionally-shot burglar. One failed hero isn't going to outweigh a million "well if I'd been there..." pretend heroes.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:58
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To be fair there are some examples of a CCW stopping further bad thing, but I've got a hunch that the most frequent end to a shooting spree is the shooter's own suicide which is kind of hilarious when you think about it in conjunction with most of these weapons being legally obtained.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:59
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Zeroisanumber posted:He was apparently some sort of volunteer security monitor. Maybe he was issued pepper spray, maybe he just decided to carry it on his own, regardless the university isn't going to come down on him for it because the guy actually is a big drat hero. Sounds like he carried it on his own. quote:Meis, who typically carries pepper spray on him wherever he goes, saw the shooter trying to reload his shotgun and quickly jumped in to incapacitate him. "Wherever he goes" implies that the pepper spray was his, not something he got through the school. Popular Thug Drink posted:I think you're reaching here. I can't find any specific policies but the kid was an honor student, a senior, is continually referred to as a 'building monitor', and I can find circumstantial references to building monitors as part of PSU's emergency crisis response plan. It's very likely he was a student Yeah, building monitors are "part of the response plan" in the same vein that any teacher is, they are trained to herd people into low-visibility areas to minimize the body count and let the cops handle the shooter. At my school, training consists of watching a "duck and cover" video yearly. Is there any evidence that this guy was trained as a student security guard or anything like that? If so, I haven't read it. I believe the spin it's probably a genuine case of an armed bystander intervening with a personal weapon and it turning out well. The headline was probably equally likely to read "honor roll student murdered by active shooter" though, or "university expels honor roll student for bringing weapon to campus". The fact that it's pepper spray just lowers the stakes though, even if he had hosed up and it wasn't an active shooter no one would have died. There's lots more mundane assaults crimes that a can of pepper spray could have stopped if it weren't banned on a lot of campuses. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 17:00
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moths posted:One example isn't a trend, but as far as I know, no spree killing has ever ended because of a citizen's intervention. (There's some shady reporting on a mall shooter, where a citizen had a gun but he was never seen by the shooter.) Well, no ARMED citizen anyway. The giffords shooter was stopped when unarmed people tackled him while he was reloading. Which is totally not an argument for mag capacity limits and I better stop because we're doing gunchat again. Goddammit.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:01
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Pretty sure if you open any random purse on a college campus you will find a bottle of pepper spray.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:04
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This Good Guy/Bad Guy gun rhetoric is maybe one of the causes behind America's problems lately. My gun takes on moral significance when I hold it and I am become an arbiter of right. One step closer to my gat-drat china hutch and I'll work infinite justice upon you.
paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 17:04
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Berke Negri posted:Pretty sure if you open any random purse on a college campus you will find a bottle of pepper spray. Yeah, it's just a don't-ask-don't-tell legal limbo situation. My girlfriend's RA did everything to encourage it short of handing out a can at orientation, but officially she had to tell her girls "no, not allowed". If you grab national headlines you will be fine, if it rolls out of your purse at the wrong moment you'll be hosed.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:07
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Paul MaudDib posted:Yeah, building monitors are "part of the response plan" in the same vein that any teacher is, they are trained to herd people into low-visibility areas to minimize the body count and let the cops handle the shooter. At my school, training consists of watching a "duck and cover" video yearly. Is there any evidence that this guy was trained as a student security guard or anything like that? If so, I haven't read it. He was apparently sitting at a security desk at the time. Which could actually be an ironic inversion, in that it was training and preparedness that stopped the shooter, not a weapon.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:10
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Something frustrating about all this is that if they'd draped Canadian flags on the bodies, people would be demanding Canadian blood. But they literally covered their crime with the flag of the tea party and everyone just shrugs it off, unable to perceive any connection. Hell if they had left a copy of GTA V we'd likely have another congressional hearing about the impact of video games.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:13
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moths posted:Something frustrating about all this is that if they'd draped Canadian flags on the bodies, people would be demanding Canadian blood. But they literally covered their crime with the flag of the tea party and everyone just shrugs it off, unable to perceive any connection. If there's a single lesson to be taken from American history, it's that white folks get to be terrorists.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:14
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That's equally upsetting and insightful.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:16
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http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/beck-we-are-now-radicals-we-are-now-revolutionaries And they wonder where the millers got the idea from.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:22
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Popular Thug Drink posted:He was apparently sitting at a security desk at the time. The phrase "security desk" is not used in that article, you may be misreading the phrase "monitor desk". In fact the word "security" does not appear at all in that article. quote:Seattle Police say the quick actions of a volunteer building monitor likely saved lives at Seattle Pacific University Thursday afternoon when a gunman walked in and started firing. We had the same things at my college, they're basically a receptionist position created partially to direct newbies and visitors to their department offices but mostly to pull work-study dollars for the student (in our case at least) Again, I do not know of any building monitors that receive meaningful security training, nor do I know of this guy being anything more than a glorified receptionist who did some heroic things (likely the total opposite of what he was trained to do) with a weapon that is banned according to campus policy. That doesn't diminish what the guy did, but let's not make him out to be a bona-fide cop without some evidence. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 17:24
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Honestly Jon Meis is a perfect example of the one thing that does make you more likely to prevail in a crisis, which is the willingness to say "gently caress it" and go in without hesitation. It might work, it might not.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:28
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Similarly, let's not accuse the kid of violating university policy and a subsequent hushing up just because of your gut feeling.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:29
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Good news, everyone! Another shooting! This time at a high school in Portland! Hoping the lack of details on injuries indicates it got short circuited before things got bad, but this is insane. The NRA needs to be stopped.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:38
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SedanChair posted:If there's a single lesson to be taken from American history, it's that white folks get to be terrorists. You did it. You figured it out.
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Jun 10, 2014 17:44
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Popular Thug Drink posted:He was apparently sitting at a security desk at the time. It probably had more to do with the shooter having to stop to reload. You might even say it was the primary reason.
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Jun 10, 2014 18:10
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Turnquiet posted:Good news, everyone! Another shooting! This time at a high school in Portland! One student dead, shooter dead as well. gently caress this nation.
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Jun 10, 2014 18:17
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Honestly after Sandy Hook and the fact that the NRA and the GUNS UBER ALLES crew wasn't driven into the ocean after their response, I think it's become pretty clear that we've resigned ourselves as a nation to regular horrific gun deaths in exchange for no one ever getting within shouting distance of real reform, mostly to placate the idiotic notion that a nation awash with guns is somehow inoculated from government tyranny. Because nothing is more important in America than the readily available fetish totem that instantly transforms you into a real cowboy man who can defeat anyone, thereby proving your worth.
Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 18:39
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RadicalR posted:One student dead, shooter dead as well. gently caress this nation. Tom Tomorrow needs to redraw this with a blank space instead of Tucson. 
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Jun 10, 2014 18:46
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SedanChair posted:If there's a single lesson to be taken from American history, it's that white folks get to be terrorists. White folks get to be terrorists as long as they have a specific ideology. If we had footage of Jerad Miller camping out at Zucotti Park instead of Bunkerville and he covered his victims with a flag that said "We are the 99%" instead of "don't tread on me", I think Boehner would be one of the first to label him as a domestic terrorist.
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Jun 10, 2014 18:51
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Btw Glenn Beck has had segments on both today and yesterdays show where he talks about the coming revolution. Today it was Obama's fault because he's ignoring the Tea Party.
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Jun 10, 2014 19:16
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Some more sobering facts about the Vegas shooters and the rise of right wing violent extremism lately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxdbzVi256s There is one detail in this though that I should dispute that the SPLC guy in this wasn't privy to at the time this interview was made - people who knew the Vegas shooters knew them to be white supremacists, who frequently handed out white power propaganda in the past: http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/jun/09/neighbors-couple-suspected-las-vegas-killing-spree/
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Jun 10, 2014 19:20
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paranoid randroid posted:One of these days we're going to have multiple CCW Heroes on scene at a rampage shooting, and they're going end up mistaking each other for the shooter. I propose a colored hat system be put into effect, to differentiate between Good Guys w/ Guns and Bad Guys w/ Guns. All I can see is that scene from Boogie Nights where the robber, guy with a gun and cashier get killed which is unfortunately going to be a regular occurrence in real life.
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Jun 10, 2014 19:24
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The SituAsian posted:All I can see is that scene from Boogie Nights where the robber, guy with a gun and cashier get killed which is unfortunately going to be a regular occurrence in real life. That's a really good reference, I had totally forgotten about that scene.
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Jun 10, 2014 19:35
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How is the Benghazi witch hunt going? Last I heard there was a Republican led investigation weeks ago but yet I haven't heard a peep about it since.
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Jun 10, 2014 20:23
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