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TinTower posted:I don't see why we should be spending billions on a rich man's toy when the money could be spent more wisely improving the already existing infrastructure. and here i thought that lib dem tweet would be the most meaningless gibberish i read today.
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Jun 9, 2014 15:32
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"we shouldn't build this improvement to connections on existing rail infrasctrucute; we should be improving already exisiting infrastructure"
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Jun 9, 2014 15:34
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I mean, sure, they say it's going to cost £16bn, but that's going to balloon to eleventy hundred agillion, fafillion, shabolubalu million illion yillion... yen.
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Jun 9, 2014 16:23
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It is quite difficult to build a new high-spec rail route through a metropolis and have it not be useful. And CR2 definitely doesn't look like it'd be one that's useless.
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Jun 9, 2014 16:36
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Not building a station at Hackney and Chelsea will save then £2bn, and apparently allow it to open 4 years earlier than planned (2029), so (almost) everyone wins. The Northern Line crowding beyond Tooting is already acute, even dangerous at points when you consider Clapham Common and North still have island platforms. Giving the Sutton loop a better and more frequent service would go some way to relieve the Northern line in the meantime before Crossrail 2 comes along. Most people in the loop area get on buses and pile onto the tube at Morden anyway. Does anyone know why Thameslink trains spend so long at Blackfriars and other stations south of the river? The trains wait at Elephant and other places for minutes at a time before it gets moving again. I think Blackfriars is at least 5.
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Jun 9, 2014 16:45
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During the rush hour, it's usually because of congestion directly ahead. The timetable has a bit of slack built into it to account for this, so when things are running perfectly the trains will still loiter at stations.
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Jun 9, 2014 17:51
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Apparently Northern Rail are proposing Driver Only trains on the north of England in the new franchises. As a conductor I'd appreciate it if some of you signed this: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petiti...time=1402369651 Otherwise, giz a job Bozza.
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Jun 10, 2014 09:07
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What the hell that's loving stupid what if there's an emergency? Signing the hell out of that, I'm a Lancashire lad who just moved out of the area so it's sad that my friends will be left with a potentially lovely service. Even more than it already was, of course...
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Jun 10, 2014 10:30
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Northern probably can't afford to employ guards, though. 
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Jun 10, 2014 16:03
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Probably not they're a real tinpot operation
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Jun 10, 2014 16:05
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Metrication posted:Does anyone know why Thameslink trains spend so long at Blackfriars and other stations south of the river? The trains wait at Elephant and other places for minutes at a time before it gets moving again. I think Blackfriars is at least 5. I think there's the also the wait at Farringdon while they switch traction current from 3rd rail to overhead ac that can slow things up.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:49
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Lofty132 posted:Apparently Northern Rail are proposing Driver Only trains on the north of England in the new franchises. DOO is one of those things where with the right application it's a genuine money saver and efficient. Take for example, one of it's first applications on the Slough - Windsor branch off the GWML. However, it's been really abused in the past. They brought in DOO in the 80s (I think) on the run down Bed-Pan line, and are now living with that decision on 12-car Thameslinks. My old man moans about it, if he's had a pass-com pulled in the rear set on a busy train, it takes him about half an hour to get there and back!
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Jun 11, 2014 09:07
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Bozza posted:DOO is one of those things where with the right application it's a genuine money saver and efficient. Take for example, one of it's first applications on the Slough - Windsor branch off the GWML. I never see why they can't still just have guards but give drivers control of the doors, which seems to be the main benefit - presumably it's a combination of the unions not allowing it as it makes full DOO easier and the TOCs not really caring as they'll still have to pay for the guard anyway. Much as I'm always supportive of the unions and any demands they make to fight DOO, I can't help but be impressed by the tiny dwell times on a a line near me that uses it.
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Jun 11, 2014 09:21
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Jonnty posted:I never see why they can't still just have guards but give drivers control of the doors, which seems to be the main benefit - presumably it's a combination of the unions not allowing it as it makes full DOO easier and the TOCs not really caring as they'll still have to pay for the guard anyway. Much as I'm always supportive of the unions and any demands they make to fight DOO, I can't help but be impressed by the tiny dwell times on a a line near me that uses it. The guard doesn't always actually control the doors, they sometimes simply give the bell code. You can usually hear it on most stock that are doing this: 1 followed by 2 presses for close doors, 2 presses for right away (ie start moving) This is why the common parlance for a Starting Against Signal Signal Passed At Danger (or SASSPAD) is a "ding ding and away".
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Jun 11, 2014 11:47
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TinTower posted:Northern probably can't afford to employ guards, though. Then maybe they shouldn't win the franchise 
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Jun 11, 2014 14:51
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It's almost as if the railway industry functions on the basis of public need and not commercial concerns.
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Jun 11, 2014 15:03
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Bozza posted:The guard doesn't always actually control the doors, they sometimes simply give the bell code. Well yeah, but on Voyagers and stuff guards are still responsible for giving the signal to open/close the door and stepping out to do the relevant safety checks - there's not the same speedup as if the driver does it with CCTV/mirrors as soon as they've brought the train to a halt. This is especially true if the guard is regularly detained inside the train by stuff like revenue duties and overcrowding.
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Jun 11, 2014 19:16
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As a passenger I'm wondering about what happens in emergencies etc with one less person
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Jun 11, 2014 19:26
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thehustler posted:As a passenger I'm wondering about what happens in emergencies etc with one less person The idea is that it's done on suburban lines where other trains are close at hand, it's often feasible to stop at the next station, and you're rarely in the middle of nowhere. Often, there will be another member of staff on board doing revenue duties - they just won't be fully trained as a guard. The reality varies, of course. The RMT would argue that it's inevitably less safe and, despite the mitigations, it's hard to disagree with them.
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Jun 11, 2014 19:37
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I often take the same few lines, sometimes there is a conductor (someone?) who also does the whole 'welcome aboard the blah to whatever' rap, otherwise its the automated female voice, sometimes there doesn't appear to be one at all and occasionally a pair of the finance nazi's make an appearance. Ive never worked out the logic for when and why who is on. Its inconsistent. Same line's same times. What decides what the staffing is? (and spare me the pant making GBS threads jokes I'm just curious)
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Jun 11, 2014 20:48
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Seaside Loafer posted:I often take the same few lines, sometimes there is a conductor (someone?) who also does the whole 'welcome aboard the blah to whatever' rap, otherwise its the automated female voice, sometimes there doesn't appear to be one at all and occasionally a pair of the finance nazi's make an appearance. It's usually consistent on a line-by-line basis, I think. There might be a conductor on board but they might not make it to you or be doing something else in the back cab and just getting out for the doors. Automated announcements don't necessarily mean there's no guard on board, it just means they've chosen not to override the automatic announcements and do them themselves.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:51
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Jonnty posted:The idea is that it's done on suburban lines where other trains are close at hand, it's often feasible to stop at the next station, and you're rarely in the middle of nowhere. Often, there will be another member of staff on board doing revenue duties - they just won't be fully trained as a guard. The reality varies, of course. The RMT would argue that it's inevitably less safe and, despite the mitigations, it's hard to disagree with them. I'd imagine if they really want to save money then any 'revenue protection assistant' or whatever they would replace the conductor grade with would hold a PTS card and nothing else. The argument is that our wages are good because of the fact we are trained to do emergency protection etc. they have just downgraded our first aid status at Northern now, apparently we should only ring an ambulance and provide a first aid kit rather than offering any tangible aid. When I started we did a day's course but I assume that's been knocked on the head to save money, the RMT were pushing for guards to et refresher courses. Doors is another funny issue: with the girl dying due to a conductor doing his doors wrong in Liverpool, Northern went into overdrive regarding what you can and cannot do when operating the train doors. Seems a bit strange to go from claiming it's absolutely essentially to have a guard monitoring the platform from the rear door window to just binning the grade and having the driver look out before driving off, unable to see what is occurring behind his cab. If they want to go D.O.O. they will, unfortunately they get their way eventually. I actually came in here to post this: http://www.therailengineer.com/2012/02/01/draining-dove-holes/
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Jun 17, 2014 13:24
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But hey; the British Railway is at least better than the Swedish Railway; so you got that going for you
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Jun 18, 2014 09:52
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Rail engineering coming to a telly near you later this year (probably) http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/news/commissioning/bbc2-boards-windfall-train-doc/5073252.article Broadcast posted:BBC2 boards Windfall train doc
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Jun 18, 2014 17:02
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Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:Rail engineering coming to a telly near you later this year (probably) http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/news/commissioning/bbc2-boards-windfall-train-doc/5073252.article Didn't film me and I designed the last 16 miles of their loving railway. gently caress YOU WINDFALL.
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Jun 18, 2014 17:45
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Yo Bozza, looks like someone may have been listening to you...quote:Virgin wins West Coast mainline extension
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Jun 19, 2014 19:32
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I'm on a First Great Western train now and I've always thought the number of first class carriages was excessive, same for Virgin. I'm from the south and was used to a small first class section, but some companies seem to make half the train first class.
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Jun 21, 2014 10:53
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Lady Gaza posted:I'm on a First Great Western train now and I've always thought the number of first class carriages was excessive, same for Virgin. I'm from the south and was used to a small first class section, but some companies seem to make half the train first class. I always thought that was intentional- when economy fills to bursting they can make a quick buck off people upgrading to 1st.
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Jun 21, 2014 11:09
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Lady Gaza posted:I'm on a First Great Western train now and I've always thought the number of first class carriages was excessive, same for Virgin. I'm from the south and was used to a small first class section, but some companies seem to make half the train first class. I remember as a student travelling down from Brum/Coventry down to London on a packed train. I was standing (sitting on a suitcase next to one of the doors) for the whole trip. Got on with a supersaver without realising I was very slightly out. Got charged for new peak ticket. Thought it was a little unfair but that didn't gall me nearly so much as the thought that what felt like half the train was mostly empty. Hated that.
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Jun 21, 2014 16:35
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That's loving ridiculous. The dickheads.
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Jun 21, 2014 17:00
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Bad News: Having to catch a train from Waterloo and being surrounded by braying morning suit-wearing top hat-brandishing toffs on their way to the races. Good News: Noticing that every man jack of them is being obliged to buy a ticket for "Ascot (Berks)". Well played, whoever was responsible for that.
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Jun 21, 2014 20:29
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Hong XiuQuan posted:I remember as a student travelling down from Brum/Coventry down to London on a packed train. I was standing (sitting on a suitcase next to one of the doors) for the whole trip. Got on with a supersaver without realising I was very slightly out. Got charged for new peak ticket. Thought it was a little unfair but that didn't gall me nearly so much as the thought that what felt like half the train was mostly empty. Hated that. What annoys me about this kind of thing is that Virgin do not seem capable of charging you for the difference, but only to charge you for the full amount. They have pioneered the practice of gouging and criminalising their customers, and their constantly shifting "peak" system can only be designed to further this aim. I once kicked up a load of noise about it and they offered "discretion" to let me travel on the train on my original ticket. It was practically empty (it was the first peak train of the afternoon, at around 3PM). Utter bullshit.
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Jun 22, 2014 11:02
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Its meant to be a deterrent. If you only ever had to pay the difference why would anyone buy a peak ticket? You'd just travel on the cheapest ticket possible and only pay the full price if challenged.
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Jun 22, 2014 14:35
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Betjeman posted:What annoys me about this kind of thing is that Virgin do not seem capable of charging you for the difference, but only to charge you for the full amount. They have pioneered the practice of gouging and criminalising their customers, and their constantly shifting "peak" system can only be designed to further this aim. Ugh gently caress those guys for making you obey the law. nozz posted:Its meant to be a deterrent. If you only ever had to pay the difference why would anyone buy a peak ticket? You'd just travel on the cheapest ticket possible and only pay the full price if challenged. Exactly. I agree that the peak/non-peak/super-offpeak difference is completely opaque, they make it purposely obscure and vague.
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Jun 22, 2014 16:03
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nozz posted:Its meant to be a deterrent. If you only ever had to pay the difference why would anyone buy a peak ticket? You'd just travel on the cheapest ticket possible and only pay the full price if challenged. I don't what it's a deterrent for...?  Here in New York, we have the LIRR and you're able to pay the step-up difference between off-peak and peak rather than being screwed by having the technically wrong ticket.
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Jun 22, 2014 16:07
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ThirdPartyView posted:I don't what it's a deterrent for...? They're talking about paying on the train. If guards simply charge you the extra if they catch you with an off-peak ticket, there's zero risk to chancing it with an off-peak ticket as the worst that will happen is you'll pay the same as if you did the right thing (buy an on-peak ticket) in the first place. If they don't let you pay the difference, it then makes chancing it much more risky as you could end up paying much more than if you'd bought the on-peak ticket in the first place. The same thing applies for railcard-discounted tickets To use a slightly exaggerated example, it's like if the maximum penalty for shoplifting was simply being forced to pay the full price of the item you stole. Everyone would shoplift as there'd be no risk to it whatsoever. If you've not got on the train yet a ticket office will usually let you upgrade for the difference in price. Having said all that, off/on-peak stuff is a total joke and if the railways are going to do it they should be forced to actually be clear about the restrictions by, for example, putting the actual times on their website or the ticket rather than on obscure posters somewhere in the affected stations. Jonnty fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jun 22, 2014 |
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Jun 22, 2014 16:30
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Jonnty posted:They're talking about paying on the train. If guards simply charge you the extra if they catch you with an off-peak ticket, there's zero risk to chancing it with an off-peak ticket as the worst that will happen is you'll pay the same as if you did the right thing (buy an on-peak ticket) in the first place. If they don't let you pay the difference, it then makes chancing it much more risky as you could end up paying much more than if you'd bought the on-peak ticket in the first place. I still don't see the point, though? I mean, I paid the step-up on the LIRR train before. The only time you get screwed on the LIRR is if you come on without a ticket as then there is a penalty for buying the full ticket on board rather than a step-up to discourage wasting the collector's time in having to process a full ticket (which requires some level of paperwork as opposed to just the step-up which requires none) instead of buying it from an agent or machine. Jonnty posted:To use a slightly exaggerated example, it's like if the maximum penalty for shoplifting was simply being forced to pay the full price of the item you stole. Everyone would shoplift as there'd be no risk to it whatsoever. Except that shoplifting is an actual crime whereas having on hand an off-peak that I bought 3 weeks ago and electing to use it and step-up the difference isn't criminal behavior? Horseshoe theory fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Jun 22, 2014 |
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Jun 22, 2014 16:33
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ThirdPartyView posted:I still don't see the point, though? I mean, I paid the step-up on the LIRR train before. The only time you get screwed on the LIRR is if you come on without a ticket as then there is a penalty for buying the full ticket on board rather than a step-up to discourage wasting the collector's time in having to process a full ticket (which requires some level of paperwork as opposed to just the step-up which requires none) instead of buying it from an agent or machine. I don't really see how I can be more clear - there would be literally no reason to buy a full-price ticket and the railways would lose thousands of pounds as, particularly in rush hour, many people don't get their ticket checked at any stage of their journey.
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Jun 22, 2014 16:36
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Jonnty posted:I don't really see how I can be more clear - there would be literally no reason to buy a full-price ticket and the railways would lose thousands of pounds as, particularly in rush hour, many people don't get their ticket checked at any stage of their journey. Then the issue is with ineffective collectors then, isn't it? Edit: And the LIRR often has situations during rush hours with minimum ticket checks, yet they don't go batshit insane about having to do step-ups. Horseshoe theory fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jun 22, 2014 |
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Jun 22, 2014 16:38
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ThirdPartyView posted:Then the issue is with ineffective collectors then, isn't it? I don't think any transit system in the world has a 100% fare collection rate - metros like the London Underground manage something close to it but only by putting barriers up at almost every station. As a passenger, I personally much prefer open stations with collectors on board, but there's no way a guard is going to be able to check the tickets of every passenger on every train and one way of mitigating that is by adding extra risk to all forms of fare-dodging. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with it in every instance - perhaps there should be a fixed fee for doing excesses or something rather than what is essentially an arbitrary penalty based on where you're going - but it's disingenuous to claim that it's just done to be vindictive or something like that, there is a pretty obvious logical reason for it.
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Jun 22, 2014 16:44
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