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Bobo the Red posted:I wonder what Ned would have done if he'd been around to see Robb go back on his word like he did. It does if that's the law of the land upheld by millenia of the tradition that the Lord of the land delivers the killing blow personally.
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Jun 11, 2014 00:49
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Personally I held on to both for way too long, hoping against hope. I wonder if GoT will not in some small way change tv writing. With all the death that goes on in it, seems like audiences are getting used to the fact that even good characters die, and it's not the end of the world. Then again this could start a really bad trend of killing characters for the sake of killing them.
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Jun 11, 2014 00:51
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whowhatwhere posted:It does if that's the law of the land upheld by millenia of the tradition that the Lord of the land delivers the killing blow personally. Eh, I guess. I was thinking 'decent' in the sense of kind or good, which Ned certainly is not.
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Jun 11, 2014 01:14
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Snowy posted:I miss "no book talk". Or am I just in the "all book talk" thread by mistake? No one is talking about the books. The Jon Snuuuuh poo poo is never mentioned in the books. THIS IS NOT BOOK TALK.
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Jun 11, 2014 01:26
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Boogoose posted:I for one think that a battle on tv that follows the rules of **tactical plausibility** would be fantastic. You could start with Agincourt: So, basically Ironborn v. Boltons.
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Jun 11, 2014 01:33
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Bobo the Red posted:Eh, I guess. I was thinking 'decent' in the sense of kind or good, which Ned certainly is not. WTF. He was kind and good compared to the rest of the shitlords inhabiting Westeros 
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Jun 11, 2014 01:37
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Bobo the Red posted:Eh, I guess. I was thinking 'decent' in the sense of kind or good, which Ned certainly is not. I always took Ned to be one of, if not the, most decent guys in the story. I mean, you can argue that he wasn't decent or kind or good for decapitating a deserter, but an argument could be made that he did the decent thing by carrying out the punishment handed down himself instead of putting that guilt on someone else. Was he supposed to just let the deserter go or something? Or maybe I'm forgetting other examples of him being an unkind type of dude.
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Jun 11, 2014 01:38
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It's less that Ned is bad than the institutions that Ned is enmeshed in are bad. He does he duty with nobility and grace executing a deserter, but the dead man could hardly be blamed for being so frightened and his early warning goes mostly unheeded. Bran and Jon are picking up that pieces of that mess now. In trying to do the right thing, Ned becomes inflexible; figuratively bound by his honor. Pure intentions manipulated into a noose around his neck, and maybe around Westeros too.
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Jun 11, 2014 02:08
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Nearly 30 pages go by before I'm caught up to the thread. I share a lot of the same opinions as most of you with regards to liking this episode. In fact, I liked this episode a lot. I would have of course loved to see what happens with Tyrion and the other storylines, but for a show like GOT to spend an entire episode on one thing is a rare treat. Once the season is over and you're able to marathon a few episodes at a time, I'm sure most of you naysayers (and people new to the show) will not hate on it as much since you can quickly start the next episode. Regarding the speculation chat It's a really good point that Ned Stark, someone who's constantly being paraded around as the most honorable man in Westeros, would unlikely have cheated on Catelyn soon after they were married. He married her (my guess) for two reasons: 1) she was betrothed to his older brother and lots of Earth societies have had that tradition upheld, from Asian and South Asian societies to Western European marrying your brother's "widow". However, I personally had not QUITE put that together, however, the "hush hush" when Jon inquires about his mother, makes it clear that his mother isn't just "some whore Ned hosed when he was horned up on wine and ale" but rather someone significant. I personally had been speculating that Jon is the product of Robert and Lyanna and because of "honor and duty and this and that" he claims Jon as his bastard after the death of Lyanna so Robert would not have the shame of a bastard son when he marries Cersei. He says flat out that Jon is his blood. And since we can assume Ned's not a liar, who but his sister could be the mother? I'll stop there because, while this was fun, I doubt we get that question resolved until next season on the early side. The only two things that made me roll my eyes during the show: 1. It was entirely unnecessary to have a wide shot that showed the Wildling camp as they waited for the signal and Gilly sneaking off above the hill. For someone terrified of being seen, you'd think she'd have made drat well sure no one LOOKING UP would discover her escaping. 2. While I found the scene Ygrette dies to be touching (neither of them were going to kill the other, and I knew one of them was about to bite it), when Jon holds her as she dies and no one runs over to cut his head off, I had a bit of a "oh ok... sure" moment because TV and Hollywood cliches, and so on. However, when she says they should have stayed in the cave and Jon replies that they still may yet do so, I definitely laughed when her dying reaction was essentially "shut up, you stupid, handsome idiot." ("You know nothing, Jon Sn...") I loved it. I am excited for the finale since it's likely to be a more eventful one than seasons past, but I also know that I will be upset that I'll have to wait nearly another YEAR before it continues. Sometimes I wish HBO would employ the AMC and FX standard of splitting seasons in half. While that's also frustrating, it's a lot easier waiting 4-5 months between half seasons than it is waiting a goddamn year when we only get 10 episodes. Hell, they could probably stretch the seasons to 12-14 and have 6-7 in each half season. I'd be into that! Although I know it's probably not as easy for a show like this as I'm sure they film the entire season in one go. Shadow fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 02:26
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Bobo the Red posted:She was awesome and perfect for Jon, and now he's gonna get stuck in a political marriage when we find out Jon's not going to get stuck in a political marriage because he's a member of the Night's Watch who aren't supposed to get married, and if he quit the NW because reasons then he'd be betraying his oath and a lot of people aren't going to look kindly on an oathbreaker - look at Jamie who is still labeled "kingslayer" 20 years later even though everyone agreed that the king in question was crazy. Plus he's an illegitimized bastard anyway like Ramsay was until last week.
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Jun 11, 2014 02:28
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Snowy posted:I miss "no book talk". Or am I just in the "all book talk" thread by mistake? No poo poo
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Jun 11, 2014 02:31
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monster on a stick posted:Jon's not going to get stuck in a political marriage because he's a member of the Night's Watch who aren't supposed to get married, and if he quit the NW because reasons then he'd be betraying his oath and a lot of people aren't going to look kindly on an oathbreaker - look at Jamie who is still labeled "kingslayer" 20 years later even though everyone agreed that the king in question was crazy. Plus he's an illegitimized bastard anyway like Ramsay was until last week. Well, I think it's fair to assume the current saga we are witnessing is going to be a game changer. I'm not saying the Nights Watch will be disbanded entirely, but perhaps the rules will be rewritten, or extenuating circumstances of Jon (perhaps? speculation..) having one of the best claims (beyond Dany) to the throne could warrant an exception to the rules should they stay as written. Edit: Also, I think the rules regarding illegitimacy from the standpoint of a bastard and his father are a bit fuzzy here. If a bastard's father was alive and dying, it would make sense that the dying Nobleman would need to officially accept the son to his house and give him title, which solves that problem. In this case, the throne is being occupied by fraud since the current King is not an actual heir of Robert, but instead the product of deception by the Queen Regent. As a result, this is another form of Rebellion in which case whoever wins can decide who the rightful heir is. Shadow fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 02:33
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BubbleGoose posted:I wonder if GoT will not in some small way change tv writing. With all the death that goes on in it, seems like audiences are getting used to the fact that even good characters die, and it's not the end of the world. Then again this could start a really bad trend of killing characters for the sake of killing them. Yeah, I can't imagine we won't have some people taking inspiration from the series. Network meddling might get in the way of going full "EVERYTHING IS AWFUL" Hannibal has certainly been playing around with no one being safe, but it often veers away at the last moment. Next season is going to be the decider on just how thin plot armor is there.
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Jun 11, 2014 02:42
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I don't care about GOT spoilers because I've already had pretty much everything that has happened so far in the books spoiled for me. However, for those that have not yet been spoiled, just wanted to point out that this pathetic loser PM'd me a spoiler out of the blue (presumably about what will happen next episode). Unknown motives, probably butthurt that I've been trashing GRRM as a writer or something  Just warning in case he does it to anyone else who might actually get pissed over it. Don't open or read the subject of PMs from this "MrBims" character. thathonkey fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 03:07
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justcola posted:Would it be so bad if the wild things got through the wall? they'd probably fight all of the nob heads and make the country a more righteous place. That's kind of my theory on where Jon's story might go. When you think about it, the wildlings have more in common, politically, with the Northmen than they don't. They're both rugged survivalists who resent foreign authority. When Robb was appointed King in the North, it was basically the same argument behind Mance becoming King Beyond the Wall: the Northmen were furious over oppression from King's Landing and decided they'd rather self-govern under someone they trust. It's not just that they hated Joffrey for killing Ned...they could've backed Stannis were that the case; instead, they backed Robb because he shared their values. I don't see why a similar deal couldn't occur with the wildlings, now that the Baratheon and Lannister controlling interests in King's Landing are unravelling rapidly. Not that I see this happening soon (and the books could easily contradict this), but I could see a scenario where both sides' common enemies - the White Walkers in the North and the other Royal Houses to the South - create an incentive to join forces. Especially with respect to the speculation that Jon has King's blood, either Baratheon or Targaryan. He'd be a good figurehead for this kind of thing. Edit: On the topic of Ned's Bastardly Secret, for whatever reason I've been assuming Jon was Rhaegar's kid, not Robert's. Robert fathered tons of bastards over the years, and it clearly wasn't a well-kept secret. And it's not like nobles fathering bastards upsets the given order...it happens all the time, they're just barred from inheritances to stay out of legitimate lines of succession. I mean, until something crazy happens, like Joffrey and Tommen being illegitimate. But prior to that revelation, I don't see the extreme urgency to never tell Jon the truth. Conversely, if Jon's the last surviving male descendant of Aerys II, that's a way bigger deal. If someone found that out, Jon would've been killed then and there. There's a way clearer political motivation for Ned to claim Jon as his own and never betray the truth. Spoilered because for some reason we're doing that; I second that this isn't actual book chat because we're nerds speculating based on nothing. Xealot fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 03:15
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No More Heroes posted:WTF. He was kind and good compared to the rest of the shitlords inhabiting Westeros Johnny Bravo posted:I always took Ned to be one of, if not the, most decent guys in the story. I mean, you can argue that he wasn't decent or kind or good for decapitating a deserter, but an argument could be made that he did the decent thing by carrying out the punishment handed down himself instead of putting that guilt on someone else. What good things did he do? Being willing to do the wetwork for laws that are lovely doesn't count. I guess he didn't treat Theon too badly? Ned was decent, in that he kept to the laws. But he was not good or kind. He did not allow people to make mistakes, and he did not forgive. Ned was basically incapable of mercy. That kid was as old as his dipshit sons. We got to see just how loving clueless they are, and that kid, as far as we know, didn't even have the advantage of noble upbringing. Yes, Ned was legally required to kill that kid. He could, however, just not have done it. Mormont was technically supposed to kill Jon for leaving. Did he? No, because he is capable of mercy and understanding that people make mistakes. And the reasons that kid ran more than justify the fact hat he kept going longer than Jon did. He literally just saw something out of nightmares. He kept Theon prisoner because that was the 'right' thing. The 'good' thing would be to not keep a kid away from his family for a decade. He killed his daughter's wolf because it was the 'right' thing to do, even though it was pointless and cruel. Revealing the results of his investigation in King's Landing was destined to end in misery and death for Cersei and her kids. Cersei deserved it (though Ned hardly knew that). Did her kids? And to what gain? His friend was dead. It was just about what was "right", not about what was good or merciful. Hell, he hated Jaime for killing the loving king that murdered his father and brother, and that he was openly rebelling against (ie oath-breaking, the same issue he supposedly has with Jaime). It's funny, because he definitely SHOULD hate Jaime, but he didn't know about that poo poo. Dude was rigid as gently caress. People who have been shown as kinder than Ned: Tyrion, Davos, Margaery, the Hound, kinda sorta Barristan and Jorah, maybe Brienne. Half the non-villain cast, all with lesser positions than he had, and amusingly, not one of them is a Stark. Hell, Jaime has had more moments of actually giving than Ned ever did (though he is of course, still a villain until he stabs Cersei with his other other sword) monster on a stick posted:Jon's not going to get stuck in a political marriage because he's a member of the Night's Watch who aren't supposed to get married, and if he quit the NW because reasons then he'd be betraying his oath and a lot of people aren't going to look kindly on an oathbreaker - look at Jamie who is still labeled "kingslayer" 20 years later even though everyone agreed that the king in question was crazy. Plus he's an illegitimized bastard anyway like Ramsay was until last week. If illegitimate bastards were of no concern, Gendry and the others wouldn't be an issue. There is definitely cause to think Jon Snow has a shot at the throne. And if the choice is between breaking his oath, and having Westeros fall apart versus the whitewalkers, his very oath may make him do it (just as it made him kill the Halfhand). Xealot posted:Edit: The thing is, we are talking about Ned. Captain Keeps-his-word. Maybe Lyanna asked him to promise not to tell regardless; maybe she didn't know. Maybe he promised to keep him safe, and being a Stark bastard is safer than being a royal one (or a legit Stark, for that matter). Jon Snow being a Targaryen is more dramatic. Which is why it's way more fun if he isn't. He also looks way more like a Baratheon; remember all that 'black of hair' poo poo? Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 04:01
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Bobo the Red posted:Revealing the results of his investigation in King's Landing was destined to end in misery and death for Cersei and her kids. Cersei deserved it (though Ned hardly knew that). Did her kids? And to what gain? His friend was dead. It was just about what was "right", not about what was good or merciful.
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Jun 11, 2014 04:42
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Bobo the Red posted:on Snow being a Targaryen is more dramatic. Which is why it's way more fun if he isn't. He also looks way more like a Baratheon; remember all that 'black of hair' poo poo? Didn't Benjen have black hair?
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Jun 11, 2014 04:53
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RE: all this dumb speculation. If yes, why did Cat hate Jon so much?
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Jun 11, 2014 04:58
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DoctorStrangelove posted:RE: all this dumb speculation. because Ned didn't tell anyone including her
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Jun 11, 2014 05:06
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DoctorStrangelove posted:RE: all this dumb speculation. Because she probably wasn't told, sweet summer child.
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Jun 11, 2014 05:07
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Shadow posted:1. It was entirely unnecessary to have a wide shot that showed the Wildling camp as they waited for the signal and Gilly sneaking off above the hill. For someone terrified of being seen, you'd think she'd have made drat well sure no one LOOKING UP would discover her escaping. The way that scene was lit was kind of weird because it needed to make it so that the viewers could see Gilly and the camp at the same time. I think the assumption is that, though we could see Gilly, in actuality it was far too dark for anyone down at the camp to see her. Also, they were all around a campfire which would have made it even more difficult to see anything in the dark. Xealot posted:That's kind of my theory on where Jon's story might go. When you think about it, the wildlings have more in common, politically, with the Northmen than they don't. They're both rugged survivalists who resent foreign authority. Yeah only the wildlings eat people which is pretty hard to look past.
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Jun 11, 2014 05:24
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PantsBandit posted:The way that scene was lit was kind of weird because it needed to make it so that the viewers could see Gilly and the camp at the same time. I think the assumption is that, though we could see Gilly, in actuality it was far too dark for anyone down at the camp to see her. Also, they were all around a campfire which would have made it even more difficult to see anything in the dark. It simply wasn't necessary. Although I would just like to reiterate that this and the "sick dolly shot" (kudos for the goon that posted that term as it perfectly describes it) with Ygrette's death scene were my only main issues with the episode. Otherwise, I enjoyed it.
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Jun 11, 2014 05:27
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Guys Benjen Stark had black hair and an affinity for Jon Snuh 
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Jun 11, 2014 06:08
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No More Heroes posted:Guys Benjen Stark had black hair and an affinity for Jon Snuh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd4eo_NUh5w
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Jun 11, 2014 06:23
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He will emerge from the woods with a tale of slicing open a yeti and crawling inside to survive and then broker a peace deal between the free folk and the nights watch.
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Jun 11, 2014 06:42
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300 miles of wall. Wildlings could start climbing at various points and send ravens to the night's watch for shits and giggles and be at the top of the wall before the night's watch dudes could run across the wall to stop them. Sending 10 dudes to climb up the wall at the single most defended place in front of your army after you light the forest on fire as a warning sign was just dumb. Probing or not, scythe or not, anyone with two brain cells would not send ice climbers to climb up to where they are free kills for the dudes waiting at the top. Please, climb your eye into my sword! You think Gilly might have mentioned that there's some dudes camped just down the hill as well.
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Jun 11, 2014 07:29
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It still bothers me that they just have so many Night's Watch dying between Ygritte, Tormund and Thenn guy, plus other wildings that by the end of the episode there must be like 10 dudes left. Also no one using a shield. I can accept wildlings not having one, but the Night's Watch is like several thousand years old but they never used shields?
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Jun 11, 2014 09:01
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Nobody in this show uses shields, so why would that matter?
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Jun 11, 2014 09:03
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It's because shieldless fighting on TV looks more stylish and exciting. The characters move around more.
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Jun 11, 2014 09:05
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Lycus posted:It's because shieldless fighting on TV looks more stylish and exciting. The characters move around more. Beric and the hound both had shields in their duel and it looked fantastic. 
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Jun 11, 2014 09:27
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Tyrion cut some dude's head off with a shield didn't he?
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Jun 11, 2014 09:33
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Doltos posted:The lovely thing about living in Westeros is that, by the odds, we'd probably all be destitute peasants in the Riverlands than a noble in a prestigious House. Look on the bright side, you're an 8 out of 8.
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Jun 11, 2014 09:49
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You guys are forgetting the thing that most doesn't make sense, the fact that their leader was in the nights watch and therefore should know all this poo poo already.
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Jun 11, 2014 10:10
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whowhatwhere posted:Other than Dolorous Edd and maybe Aemon who up at the Wall is worth liking? Despite the fact that he knows nothing I do like Jon And as frustrating as his plot armour is I like Sam too Even though he gave a nice speech and did kick some rear end I still wanted Thorne to eat it - when he get injured at the end there I thought "still serves you right for being too proud to listen to reason". poo poo forgot about that scene - so this season when he borrowed from the Iron Bank to fight the Lannisters he was actually doing it to take his army north? a cop posted:Highlight of the ep is definitely Ghost killing one single guy and then proceeding to just chow down on his corpse for the remainder of the fight. Dawg gotta eat The best Also best
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Jun 11, 2014 11:37
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Jedimastafez posted:The best canepazzo posted:No, but when looking for it I found this.
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Jun 11, 2014 11:43
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Several of the Nights Watch extras who died were carrying shields. I'd guess they don't normally carry them on their treks beyond the wall since they mostly use bows on top of their swords?
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Jun 11, 2014 13:03
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Away all Goats posted:Also no one using a shield. I can accept wildlings not having one, but the Night's Watch is like several thousand years old but they never used shields? There were absolutely some Night's Watch mooks using shields in this episode. I remember at least a couple cowering behind them while getting mauled by the wildling characters, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more around in the dark and indistinguishable chaos. One thing that did bug me a tiny bit though was the wildling special ops being parked so close to Castle Black with a big ol' fire going, as if anybody standing watch on top of the wall couldn't turn around and immediately spot it.
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Jun 11, 2014 13:05
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Vargs posted:One thing that did bug me a tiny bit though was the wildling special ops being parked so close to Castle Black with a big ol' fire going, as if anybody standing watch on top of the wall couldn't turn around and immediately spot it. The Watch probably knew they were there, but being so short-handed it wouldn't have been a good idea to send people out to get slaughtered piecemeal.
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Jun 11, 2014 13:34
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Vargs posted:There were absolutely some Night's Watch mooks using shields in this episode. I remember at least a couple cowering behind them while getting mauled by the wildling characters, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more around in the dark and indistinguishable chaos. Jon kicked a dude using a shield down some stairs.
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