|
WickedHate posted:It's a good show. Fans aren't necessarily just fans for a few carefully constructed appeal points. No it isn't. See: every above post that's not yours.
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 04:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 09:25 |
|
|
Heck there are a lot of animes that succeed commercially because they just go through a checklist of archetypes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 04:57
|
|
|
It's not a good show. I say this as someone who is both watching it, and listed things I appreciate about it. Even if I were to concede every statement you've made, it still doesn't work because there's simply no tension there. Tatsuya's "limits" are a bad joke. It would be one thing if he were good at turning an extremely narrow skill set to his advantage, using it in a variety of creative ways. That's the show I thought I was getting when I watched the first episode. In the show we actually got, his skillset is instantaneous disintegration regardless of distance, and any magical or mundane barriers in the way; heal fatal injuries with a glance; automatically resurrects when killed; permanent and infallible means of locating anyone or anything he chooses. They're limits in the sense he can't replicate every technique the others display, but when your own abilities are so all-encompassing, it doesn't make a difference. And even then it could work if Tatsuya, or even any of his fan club ever had to struggle with anything. But they don't. It's just one episode after another of blandly competent archetypes overcoming the latest obstacle with minimal effort. You can't generate intensity without a credible challenge. Even the ones the show goes to great lengths to build up get brushed off within a few minutes of a confrontation. That's why it is a bad show, even if ignore or disbelieve all the other stuff people pointed out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 05:29
|
|
|
Tatsuya had some trouble during the games because of self-imposed limits. However, they were essentially kids playing sports and it didn't really matter if he won or lost. I mean obviously he still won because he always wins in every kind of situation including social. But a protagonist who has to hold back to have any sort of tension (note: there is not ever any tension because he always wins) is poo poo writing. It isn't like Tatsuya is afraid or reluctant to use his full power either, because those are human traits and Satou doesn't much care for humans.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 05:36
|
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:Tatsuya had some trouble during the games because of self-imposed limits. However, they were essentially kids playing sports and it didn't really matter if he won or lost. I mean obviously he still won because he always wins in every kind of situation including social. But a protagonist who has to hold back to have any sort of tension (note: there is not ever any tension because he always wins) is poo poo writing. It isn't like Tatsuya is afraid or reluctant to use his full power either, because those are human traits and Satou doesn't much care for humans. I wouldn't call that sort of thing inherently poo poo writing, but it usually works way better when there's a better reason for that sort of thing. The main things that come to my mind are pacifist protagonists that still fight, something like Kenshin or Vash. People that are forced to fight at a disadvantage because they refuse to kill. Or I guess in other words, a reason that isn't dumb. (Of course that sort of thing can swing too far and you get something like Kira. But hey, it's all about the execution of the idea)
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 05:40
|
|
|
He has to hold back because no one can know how awesome he is, except for when his deranged sister explicitly tells people about it. Oh, but screw actually being modest. Tatsuya rubs how wonderful he is in everyone's face while smugly thinking about how they don't know how much more wonderful he really is.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 05:44
|
|
|
I've been thinking (because gently caress it beats work) if there is any way to have a character like Tatsuya work as a protagonist at all. Really you'd have to either change the character to make him less powerful or keep him as a deus ex machina, but you can't do both. It could sort of work if they were actually consistent with the part about him only having feelings for his sister so he has no motivation to ever help anyone else, unless Miyuki explicitly asks him to. That way at least you could have real tension when one of the other characters gets into danger.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 05:55
|
|
|
The physical challenges aren't important. It's like reading the Hulk and wondering if he'll be able to defeat every physical challenge that comes his way. Of course he will, he's the Hulk. That's not the point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 06:10
|
|
|
You could make him damaged as gently caress and blatantly manipulating himself to appear acceptable to society like DtB's Hei.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 06:11
|
|
|
What keeps me coming back is the idea that Tatsuya is a genuine attempt by the author to deconstruction the archetype of a stoic, super competent main character with super powers, but the author is too in love with the power fantasy that archetype embodies to set aside his own biases. The deconstruction of Tatsuya's stoicism is that it comes from him genuinely lacking emotions, but for the author, following the logical conclusions of that is too painful.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 07:14
|
|
|
Harime Nui posted:I've been thinking (because gently caress it beats work) if there is any way to have a character like Tatsuya work as a protagonist at all. Really you'd have to either change the character to make him less powerful or keep him as a deus ex machina, but you can't do both. It could sort of work if they were actually consistent with the part about him only having feelings for his sister so he has no motivation to ever help anyone else, unless Miyuki explicitly asks him to. That way at least you could have real tension when one of the other characters gets into danger. A horribly overpowered protagonist with a lack of affect? Ridiculous badasses with human foibles is kind of ONE's specialty. In Makai no Ossan, the main character is a middle aged demon in a world of demons who tries to take care of his family. He is also ludicrously strong, but that isn't all that useful for his daily life. In One Punch Man (read the Murata version), Saitama became so powerful that nothing can challenge him any more, and even acting as a hero to fight threats no one else could doesn't bring him any particular joy. Saitama just doesn't care that much about most things, so his casual attitude just pisses people off. It doesn't hurt that no one goes on long speeches about how wonderful he is in every single scene whether he is present or not, either. In Mob Psycho, Mob has godlike psychic powers but his crippling lack of social skills holds him back from what he really wants, which is to be popular and successful. Sure, comparing a twisted, talentless hack like Satou to ONE isn't exactly fair, but it demonstrates that there is a lot that can be done with overpowered protagonists. gimme the GOD DAMN candy fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Jun 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 08:33
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Is it possible that Tatsuya serves a sort of "shoujo love interest" role that helps give this series is appeal to women as well as men? It's obvious that it has the harem/imouto and Gary Stu stuff there to appeal to guys, but I've been trying to figure out why it has rated high among women as well. There's gotta be some reason. It was high rated among women on an anonymous internet poll with a small number of votes where anyone can choose "I'm a woman"
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 09:29
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:It's a good show. Fans aren't necessarily just fans for a few carefully constructed appeal points. You have the anime equivalent of a gutter palate.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 11:36
|
|
|
Rangpur posted:I It would be one thing if he were good at turning an extremely narrow skill set to his advantage, using it in a variety of creative ways. That's the show I thought I was getting when I watched the first episode. Well.. Guess you'll love it once it is revealed that Tasuya's power is still partly sealed (by Miyuki, which partly seals her power as well) and he still man handles about everyone even before releasing that seal...
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 12:00
|
|
|
So you guys were expecting Jojo-lite. Shame. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 15:03
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:The physical challenges aren't important. It's like reading the Hulk and wondering if he'll be able to defeat every physical challenge that comes his way. Of course he will, he's the Hulk. That's not the point. Yeah, the Hulk is a big ball of rage that Bruce Banner just can't control, and he puts other people in danger just by virtue of existing. That doesn't really apply to someone like Tatsuya because that would be a flaw. Not a fake flaw that the story tells us is a flaw but never actually impedes him in any way, mind, but a real flaw. I can only see Tatsuya being super powerful and being unchallenged as part of a power fantasy, with zero narrative value beyond that. It's not like I would never be able to be convinced that it's not the case but heck, the anime has done a solid job in showing me that's it's like that. Srice fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jun 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 15:11
|
|
|
The comparisons of Tatsuya to someone like the Hulk or even something like One Punch Man are wrong primarily because everyone in the world of Mahouka either loves the protagonist, will love him after being beaten over the head with how awesome he is, or is a moustache-twirling evil person. And, most important of all, the author is clearly in love with him and thinks that he's completely awesome. You can't tell us that a character has deep flaws and then show us otherwise. This show might work if everyone hated Tatsuya for being a bad person and his killing of thousands of people was shown as being something that makes him a bad person, even if there might be some political necessity for it (for whatever reason). But this show is clearly telling us that Tatsuya's violence is both cool and acceptable. edit: For some reason this show made me think of a different version of this game Watch_Dogs where the main character's sister is in love with him and everyone thinks he's awesome (the main character in Watch_Dogs is a terrible human being and his sister and most other people hate him for it).
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 16:52
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:The physical challenges aren't important. It's like reading the Hulk and wondering if he'll be able to defeat every physical challenge that comes his way. Of course he will, he's the Hulk. That's not the point.
Rangpur fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jun 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 17:02
|
|
|
Rangpur posted:Here are ways you could make this less of a clusterfuck, without changing any of the characters we've seen so far: The main plot is all about those two things.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 17:06
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:The main plot is all about those two things. At least with the second, it's not really addressed in anything approaching a mature way. It's basically just "Japan is better than the other countries just because it is, and the other countries are power-hungry and bad because that's just how they are."
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 17:10
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:The main plot is all about those two things. Instead we get the author riding his goddamn hobby horse about how equality is a just an excuse to agitate for higher wages. There's nothing about the changes in economy or culture that you'd expect from a society on a permanent war footing. No shortages, no propaganda, no protests, and no integration into the plot. It's a contextless background detail. If you switched it out with something like 'the sky is green,' there would be no change in the story so far.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 17:25
|
|
|
Rangpur posted:I'm onto the 4th major story arc of the light novels. When exactly does this main plot start up? They say the Ten Great clans are constantly jockeying for position, but we never see it. The issue never effects the narrative in any meaningful way. We hear there's been a World War III in recent memory but we don't know why, and no one ever points to that as justification for anything in the setting. Even when it would make a fitting reason! There's your answer to Sayaka's question about the school's laser-like focus on Course 1 students: the country is effectively in an arm's race. There is a book which is about a young member of the 10 clans (or maybe they wanted into the 10 clans? I forget.) who is obsessed with deposing the saegusa clan. Only, his dad didn't give a gently caress and it was mostly due to the efforts of some FILTHY WHORE ACTRESS egging him on for no reason. The only reason why this hostility between major clans existed was due to an outsider manipulating a gullible teenage boy. I am not joking here. An actress who wasn't a magician, had no stake in the conflict and nothing to gain from any of it got a boy into an insane frenzy against anyone related to the saegusa clan. Then literal minutes before she actually seduced him, Tatsuya dropped in and threatened her into stopping. Then the chinese showed up and Tatsuya murdered them, because that's what he does.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 17:40
|
|
|
It's not really related to the conversation at hand, I'm just reporting it and not using it as proof it's a good show, but Newtype listed Tatsuya as the top male character of July:
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 17:52
|
|
|
Ah yes, beating such well written characters like Kirito and Kira Yamato.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 17:56
|
|
|
Kira Yamato is #3. That list is actually a pretty convincing argument that Tatsuya is a lovely character liked by people with lovely taste.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 17:56
|
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:Kira Yamato is #3. That list is actually a pretty convincing argument that Tatsuya is a lovely character liked by people with lovely taste. Srice posted:Ah yes, beating such well written characters like Kirito and Kira Yamato. Jotaro is #4 and Chaika is #2 on the female side, though. No idea who the rest are.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 17:58
|
|
|
What's the second number?
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 17:58
|
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:Kira Yamato is #3. That list is actually a pretty convincing argument that Tatsuya is a lovely character liked by people with lovely taste. It certainly convinces me that being a flawless self insert character is the way to be popular with the people that read Newtype. The only one I recognize on the lady side of things is Lacus which tells me a lot about that side, really. e: It is painful for me to type this out but...Kira is a better written character than Tatsuya. That is what this show has brought me to, and I am not glad of it. Srice fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Jun 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 17:59
|
|
|
Srice posted:The only one I recognize on the lady side of things is Lacus which tells me a lot about that side, really. Miyuki is 5, Saber is 3 (and is also a terrible character).
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 18:01
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:What's the second number? Last month's ranking, IIRC.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 18:04
|
|
|
The #5 guy is Raku from Nisekoi and The #1 girl is Azuma from akuma no riddle.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 18:24
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Miyuki is 5, Saber is 3 (and is also a terrible character). I'll take Saber over a brother worshiper any day.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 18:38
|
|
|
Finished book 5. Another filler story starring Tasuya. It starts off with a flashback of him taking his sister clothes shopping. People constantly stare at her because she is a living goddess. When she tries on clothes the clothes shop asks her to go out wearing the new clothes as advertising for them (in exchange for a discount). They go for lunch, and a popular actress and her manager pop by, but people don't stare at the actress because they're too busy staring at miyuki. The actress is jealous, but the manager wants to recruit miyuki also he thinks of women as accessories. He goes over and argues forcefully, but the second he tries to touch miyuki tatsuya grabs his arm and it hurts so much that the guy backs off and collapses to his knees and "a lesser man would have soiled himself". The head chef is embarrassed by this so tasuya and miyuki eat free. When they leave the restaurant the manager corners them with a group of gangsters so tatsuya takes them out with one punch each. The police then arrest the manager and the gangsters and also one of them watched the magic olympics and wants Miyuki's autograph. The flashback then ends as Tatsuya and Miyuki go to the bank. The bank gets robbed by guys with guns except that this is the future so banks don't carry money and also have all kinds of technology to foil anachronistic robberies like this. Tatsuya and Miyuki troll the robbers by pretending to be scared but this just distracts the robbers from the guards hidden in the ceiling which Tatsuya knew about because he sees all. Tatsuya and Miyuki then go somewhere quiet and both burst out laughing but calm down just in time for the manager to find tatsuya and let him off bank charges for a year as an apology I look forward to reaching this story in my full runthrough as it really is just naked wish fulfilment. Also we learn that when they go out into town the siblings pretend to be a couple in order to try and stop people looking at Miyuki so much (it doesn't work because she is really loving beautiful. Finally there's the student president election which I'll cover in full eventually. Turns out that because being student president is so prestigious, the student council just picks who'll be the next president and the election is to just vote for that one person. This is because the last time they had an election over 10 people were seriously hurt so they decided to just keep the actual thing internal. This is presented as good despite the fact that the president is the only one who picks members of the council, so essentially the values of the council would never really change
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 19:07
|
|
|
Namtab posted:Finally there's the student president election which I'll cover in full eventually. Turns out that because being student president is so prestigious, the student council just picks who'll be the next president and the election is to just vote for that one person. This is because the last time they had an election over 10 people were seriously hurt so they decided to just keep the actual thing internal. This is presented as good despite the fact that the president is the only one who picks members of the council, so essentially the values of the council would never really change Ahahahahahaha. The political beliefs espoused in this series are cool, good, and definitely not terrible in any way, no sir.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 19:15
|
|
|
Namtab posted:Finished book 5  That's so loving dumb that now I need to read it. Was this still part of the original online novel? Because this reads like awful fanfiction. Like, I've read fanfiction with a better summary than this.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 19:51
|
|
|
I'm getting this weird kind of stockholm syndrome where I enjoy when the books get as bad as that because I can anticipate having fun writing about it for The Internet. My fave bit about that particular short story is just the fact that Tatsuya and Miyuki keep getting free poo poo every time they go outside. So basically im a huge nerd irl.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 20:03
|
|
|
Is that better or worse then actually liking it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 20:05
|
|
WickedHate posted:Is that better or worse then actually liking it. Better. There's a reason critics tend to have the most fun writing savage reviews of movies they hate, after all. Actually liking it means there's something wrong with you, you're a terrible person, or both of those at once.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 20:19
|
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:There is a book which is about a young member of the 10 clans (or maybe they wanted into the 10 clans? I forget.) who is obsessed with deposing the saegusa clan. Only, his dad didn't give a gently caress and it was mostly due to the efforts of some FILTHY WHORE ACTRESS egging him on for no reason. The only reason why this hostility between major clans existed was due to an outsider manipulating a gullible teenage boy. I am not joking here. An actress who wasn't a magician, had no stake in the conflict and nothing to gain from any of it got a boy into an insane frenzy against anyone related to the saegusa clan.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 21:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 09:25 |
|
|
You'd be hard-pressed to find one, otherwise there actually might be tension and, *gasp*, possibly even worthwhile plot! But seriously, no, all the enemies that you see are either people that needs to be "educated" of their folly or just mooks. Named mooks perhaps, but still just mooks.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2014 21:53
|
|